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then Ulq would become very relevant. especially since he revealed
that his best power is regeneration, which he didn't trade off like
the others did! so it gives you an idea of how powerful a VL arrancar
can be. It raises the benchmark of the espada considerably so
imo it would be quite relevant even though he is ash now.
not dust, ash! lol. besides I have a feeling that he'll come back.lol.
anyway moving to topic, lets make comparisons between Ulq and Hitsu
in terms of aspects of battle. which is a little hard since we have no
direct way to compare the two. we have to take assumptions based on
Ichigo was faster than byakuya, period! senkei senbonzakura was
so powerful that it actually crushed ichigo with it's pressure. that's why
Ichigo seemed slower. in fact byakuya himself says that senkei only
increases attack strength. so we know for sure that Ichigo has faster
movements than Byakuya. does he have faster teleportation abilities tho?
maybe not. so now we have to ask, is Byakuya faster than Hitsugaya?
I would like to think so but I have no way of backing that up.
and I can't use the databooks since they are most likely indicating potential.
for example the maximum value in each aspect was 100. I assume it's to
show the percentage of kido,speed etc. so we can't compare eachother with it.
so let's say it's inconclusive.
so for Speed
1st release Ulq>vaizard+bankai ichigo>bankai Ichigo>bankai byakuya
-note senkei only increases attack power!
now that is fact! but how does that compare to Hitsugaya? unlike Byakuya,
we've never heard shinigami comment on how fast Hitsu is. and unlike Hitsu,
Byakuya got his speed skills from the goddess of flash yoruichi.
but let's ignore that and say, Hitsugaya is faster than byakuya.
in that case, can we really say that he's faster than vaizard ichigo?
because saying that would suggest, byakuya to be far inferior to Hitsugaya!
and Hitsu didn't seem all that fast when he fought luppi. most likely hitsu and
byakuya are close to eachother's skills. so the most logical assumption is that
vaizard ichigo+bankai is faster than Hitsugaya.
now this is difficult. Byakuya didn't go full power straight away,
but the moment he went senkei, Ichigo was easily out classed.
few moves + a kido move and shirosaki had to enter the scene.
and after shirosaki was forcefully removed by Ichigo, byakuya's
attitude towards Ichigo changed considerably. Byakuya saw that Ichigo;s
true intentions wasn;t to kill him but it was simply to save rukia.
which makes me think that byakuya didn't actually want to kill Ichigo
by that stage. after all he did love Rukia but his duty as a shinigami wouldn't allow his actions.
anyway it was clear Ichigo was no match to senkei. so we have to focus
on grimmjow's fight. unsealed grimmjow didn't even break a sweat while
dealing with bankai ichigo. even getsuga tensho only gave him some scratch marks.
in otherwords grimmjow defeated bankai ichigo with much more ease than byakuya!
but after he becomes a vaizard, Ichigo defeats pantera grimmjow!
that's an incredible boost in power! so there's no doubt that vaizard mask
increased Ichigo's power. an increase that would certainly outclass senkei.
but even then ichigo was still outclassed by Ulq. Ichigo in bankai
could deflect each petal of senbonzakura. that's how fast his attacking
speed was when he was only in bankai. but against Ulq he couldn't even
bring his sword to defend himself at times. he couldn't evade attacks like cero oscuras.
but then what about kido? kido is the manipulation of ones own reiatsu
to take the form of attacks or restraints. the important part to remember
is that it's one's own reiatsu. also it's evident that the ones with
greater reiatsu can simply break through kido. I imagine it would take a
considerable amount of reiatsu to restrain someone with high reiatsu.
someone like Rukia, won't even be able to complete a spell. probably because
the reiatsu required to restrain Ulq, would be greater than her total reiatsu!
this is why we don't see kido restraint that often when the fights are even
or one sided towards the enemy. It's like tying up someone. except the ropes
are made of their own reiatsu. if their reiatsu is weaker than the person they
are tying up, then the person is just going to breakthrough.
so for Attack
1st release Ulq>vaizard+bankai ichigo>pantera grimmjow>unsealed grimmjow= or >bankai byakuya>bankai Ichigo
-senkei increased attack power and was greater than ichigo at the time.
-sealed grimmjow defeated bankai ichigo with much less effort than byakuya
so how does that compare with Hitsugaya? I continue to assume that
Hitsugaya is near to the level of byakuya, whether he's weaker or
stronger. in otherwords, I assume there isn't a world of difference
between byakuya and Hitsugaya. I think this is reasonable.
against Luppi, Hitsugaya had to rely on a time consuming elaborate attack.
he couldn't just deal with luppi at ease and quickly. this shows
that he isn't that much superior to luppi. so it's reasonable to assume
that vaizard ichigo is superior to Hitsugaya. and in turn that means
ulq is superior to hitsugaya in terms of attacks.
only one who can compete with ulq, in terms of defense is ichigonator.
and even then his horn was still sliced by a heavily weakened ulq
at the brink of death. so ichigonator's hierro, while being strong wasn't
something that was immune to Ulq's normal slash attack. where as Ulq
took a point blank cero from Ichigonator and was still reasonably in
tact to make a comeback! that speaks for how tough Ulq's hierro is.
so without a doubt Ulq's defense is superior to Hitsugaya.
so in three aspects of battle, in terms of speed,attack and defense,
Hitsu doesn't seem to be able to compete with Ulquiorra.
Last edited by Ozehro; June 23, 2009 at 01:21 AM.
People seem to neglect the fact that any spiritualy being is stronger in any spiritual based realm because of the Reiyoku and the Reishi that make up the area.
Also, to the above, Ichigo's speed went down because his spiritual pressure was so condensed it was crushing his bones.
after senkei. but then byakuya says senkei only affects his attack.
also the drop in speed happened almost immediately after senkei was used.
there's also confirmation from shirosaki. chapter 166 page 5.
If you think of senkei so literally, how does senkei make Byakuya any stronger (offensively)?
My opinion, which goes along with Ozehro's, is that the purpose of the thousand blades surrounding Byakuya and his opponent is to basically oppress the reiatsu of the opponent. I mean, I can't say for sure that that's what senkei is, but that's what I think it is, and it kind of makes sense.
I mean, if the only purpose of senkei is the compress the blades into swords, senkei is useless compared to byakuya's final form, why make 1000 swords and wield one isntead of make 1.
he was slow. he thought byakuya was getting faster after he used senkei. then byakuya adds in saying it doesn't affect speed, just attack. and finally we get confirmation from shirosaki.
also Ichigo's speed was only negatively influenced soon after byakuyaQuote:
used senkei. so it's clear that senkei is what caused the crushing
That does not prove byakuya's reiatsu made ichigo slower. It only proves ichigo was scared shittless of byakuya.
noticed that Byakuya became faster all of a sudden after using senkei.
he simply had no idea what was really going on. which then byakuya explains
away by saying senkei only improves attack. and finally shirosaki confirms
about the pressure of byakuya bankai affecting ichigo...
Also, byakuya stated that the reason for ichigo getting slower was that ichigo's body was at it's limit. If kensei could influence ichigo's speed byakuya would have mentioned it.
Senkei does nothing but unite the millions of blades of senbonsakura. There is no evidence to support it does anything else. That means each blade in senkei has an increased attack power in comparison to byakuya's original sealed blade. That means that the blade byakuya used against bankai ichigo while in senkei had more destructive power than the original sealed blade. Not to mention byakuya has the power to use the blades that make up senkei to strike at any time.
Last edited by kkck; July 01, 2009 at 10:20 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
Maybe this would discussion would fit better in a Ichigo vs. Byakuya canon discussion, don't you think?
and for the duration of Ichigo's battle we caught glimpse of his inner thoughts. and there was not even sign of fear as he started getting slower.. just confusion since he thought byakuya was getting faster.
basically what happened was before senkei, Ichigo was moving only his weight. after senkei, Ichigo was moving his weight plus the pressure exerted on him. hence he became slower than byakuya.
kido through his chest and then he said Ichigo had reached his limit
just before he was going to deal the death blow. there was no relation
made to his speed. byakuya was most likely commenting that after his
kido attack, Ichigo had reached the limit. lol.
Last edited by Ozehro; July 01, 2009 at 11:35 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
Also, I absolutely do not believe Shirosaki was simply saying Ichigo was afraid. If that was his intention, he could have just said "he's making your bones shake" in an exaggerative way, but he specifically said that not just reiatsu, but Byakuya's bankai's reiatsu was making his bones shake. Looking at it from a writing perspective, it's clear to me Kubo was trying to point something out with that, as I don't think he would have thought of a line that could be taken any other way than "you're afraid of him" if that was all he wanted Shirosaki to be saying.
Last edited by kkck; July 01, 2009 at 01:27 PM.
Why would you make 1000 swords (he used 1000 zanpakutou to make his million blades of kageyoshi, so I'd assume he'd remake 1000 for senkei) and wield only one when you could just compress it all into one and wield it?
Plus, the ability for Byakuya to use his other 999 swords that he's not wielding is supportive at best. It's not like he'd actually use the other 999 to attack Ichigo all at once, that'd just be his normal senbonzakura kageyoshi, but worse (I'd rather have 1 million mini-blades than 1000 zanpakutou for chasing and surrounding the enemy).
You interpret the effect of Senkei so literally, as in, he uses his million mini-blades and makes a bunch of swords out of them, and then uses one of those swords.
That's completely useless in comparison to Byakuya's final form, where he compresses all his blades to form one sword.