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View Poll Results: Who wins?

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36. You may not vote on this poll
  • Hitsugaya wins

    7 19.44%
  • Ulquiorra wins

    29 80.56%
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Thread: Hitsugaya vs Ulquiorra

  1. #61
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Ozehro's Avatar
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    Re: Hitsugaya v. Ulquiorra

    Quote Originally Posted by drakend View Post
    It can be but whatever that meaning is now is irrelevant since Ulquiorra is now a small pile of dust which is roaming around Hueco Mundo because of wind!
    Unless Sheronhime revives him, of course...
    hardly irrelevant. If the meaning of segunda etapa is to show whose a VL
    then Ulq would become very relevant. especially since he revealed
    that his best power is regeneration, which he didn't trade off like
    the others did! so it gives you an idea of how powerful a VL arrancar
    can be. It raises the benchmark of the espada considerably so
    imo it would be quite relevant even though he is ash now.
    not dust, ash! lol. besides I have a feeling that he'll come back.lol.

    anyway moving to topic, lets make comparisons between Ulq and Hitsu
    in terms of aspects of battle. which is a little hard since we have no
    direct way to compare the two. we have to take assumptions based on
    Ichigo.

    Speed:**************

    Ichigo was faster than byakuya, period! senkei senbonzakura was
    so powerful that it actually crushed ichigo with it's pressure. that's why
    Ichigo seemed slower. in fact byakuya himself says that senkei only
    increases attack strength. so we know for sure that Ichigo has faster
    movements than Byakuya. does he have faster teleportation abilities tho?
    maybe not. so now we have to ask, is Byakuya faster than Hitsugaya?
    I would like to think so but I have no way of backing that up.

    and I can't use the databooks since they are most likely indicating potential.
    for example the maximum value in each aspect was 100. I assume it's to
    show the percentage of kido,speed etc. so we can't compare eachother with it.
    so let's say it's inconclusive.

    so for Speed
    1st release Ulq>vaizard+bankai ichigo>bankai Ichigo>bankai byakuya

    -note senkei only increases attack power!

    now that is fact! but how does that compare to Hitsugaya? unlike Byakuya,
    we've never heard shinigami comment on how fast Hitsu is. and unlike Hitsu,
    Byakuya got his speed skills from the goddess of flash yoruichi.
    but let's ignore that and say, Hitsugaya is faster than byakuya.
    in that case, can we really say that he's faster than vaizard ichigo?
    because saying that would suggest, byakuya to be far inferior to Hitsugaya!
    and Hitsu didn't seem all that fast when he fought luppi. most likely hitsu and
    byakuya are close to eachother's skills. so the most logical assumption is that
    vaizard ichigo+bankai is faster than Hitsugaya.

    Attack**************

    now this is difficult. Byakuya didn't go full power straight away,
    but the moment he went senkei, Ichigo was easily out classed.
    few moves + a kido move and shirosaki had to enter the scene.
    and after shirosaki was forcefully removed by Ichigo, byakuya's
    attitude towards Ichigo changed considerably. Byakuya saw that Ichigo;s
    true intentions wasn;t to kill him but it was simply to save rukia.
    which makes me think that byakuya didn't actually want to kill Ichigo
    by that stage. after all he did love Rukia but his duty as a shinigami wouldn't allow his actions.

    anyway it was clear Ichigo was no match to senkei. so we have to focus
    on grimmjow's fight. unsealed grimmjow didn't even break a sweat while
    dealing with bankai ichigo. even getsuga tensho only gave him some scratch marks.
    in otherwords grimmjow defeated bankai ichigo with much more ease than byakuya!
    but after he becomes a vaizard, Ichigo defeats pantera grimmjow!
    that's an incredible boost in power! so there's no doubt that vaizard mask
    increased Ichigo's power. an increase that would certainly outclass senkei.

    but even then ichigo was still outclassed by Ulq. Ichigo in bankai
    could deflect each petal of senbonzakura. that's how fast his attacking
    speed was when he was only in bankai. but against Ulq he couldn't even
    bring his sword to defend himself at times. he couldn't evade attacks like cero oscuras.

    but then what about kido? kido is the manipulation of ones own reiatsu
    to take the form of attacks or restraints. the important part to remember
    is that it's one's own reiatsu. also it's evident that the ones with
    greater reiatsu can simply break through kido. I imagine it would take a
    considerable amount of reiatsu to restrain someone with high reiatsu.
    someone like Rukia, won't even be able to complete a spell. probably because
    the reiatsu required to restrain Ulq, would be greater than her total reiatsu!
    this is why we don't see kido restraint that often when the fights are even
    or one sided towards the enemy. It's like tying up someone. except the ropes
    are made of their own reiatsu. if their reiatsu is weaker than the person they
    are tying up, then the person is just going to breakthrough.


    so for Attack
    1st release Ulq>vaizard+bankai ichigo>pantera grimmjow>unsealed grimmjow= or >bankai byakuya>bankai Ichigo

    note
    -senkei increased attack power and was greater than ichigo at the time.
    -sealed grimmjow defeated bankai ichigo with much less effort than byakuya

    so how does that compare with Hitsugaya? I continue to assume that
    Hitsugaya is near to the level of byakuya, whether he's weaker or
    stronger. in otherwords, I assume there isn't a world of difference
    between byakuya and Hitsugaya. I think this is reasonable.
    against Luppi, Hitsugaya had to rely on a time consuming elaborate attack.
    he couldn't just deal with luppi at ease and quickly. this shows
    that he isn't that much superior to luppi. so it's reasonable to assume
    that vaizard ichigo is superior to Hitsugaya. and in turn that means
    ulq is superior to hitsugaya in terms of attacks.


    Defense******************


    only one who can compete with ulq, in terms of defense is ichigonator.
    and even then his horn was still sliced by a heavily weakened ulq
    at the brink of death. so ichigonator's hierro, while being strong wasn't
    something that was immune to Ulq's normal slash attack. where as Ulq
    took a point blank cero from Ichigonator and was still reasonably in
    tact to make a comeback! that speaks for how tough Ulq's hierro is.
    so without a doubt Ulq's defense is superior to Hitsugaya.


    so in three aspects of battle, in terms of speed,attack and defense,
    Hitsu doesn't seem to be able to compete with Ulquiorra.
    Last edited by Ozehro; June 23, 2009 at 01:21 AM.

    *Predictions:*
    |Ulquiorra was the only VL under Aizen|
    |Aizen is not the last villain in Bleach|
    |Use the espada sig and Credit Geoff|

  2. #62
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member
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    Re: Hitsugaya v. Ulquiorra

    People seem to neglect the fact that any spiritualy being is stronger in any spiritual based realm because of the Reiyoku and the Reishi that make up the area.

    Also, to the above, Ichigo's speed went down because his spiritual pressure was so condensed it was crushing his bones.

  3. #63
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Ozehro's Avatar
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    Re: Hitsugaya v. Ulquiorra

    Quote Originally Posted by Trotter View Post
    People seem to neglect the fact that any spiritualy being is stronger in any spiritual based realm because of the Reiyoku and the Reishi that make up the area.

    Also, to the above, Ichigo's speed went down because his spiritual pressure was so condensed it was crushing his bones.
    actually his speed went down because of senkei. this is what Ichigo himself observes. but he mistakenly thought that Byakuya had gotten faster
    after senkei. but then byakuya says senkei only affects his attack.
    also the drop in speed happened almost immediately after senkei was used.
    there's also confirmation from shirosaki. chapter 166 page 5.

    *Predictions:*
    |Ulquiorra was the only VL under Aizen|
    |Aizen is not the last villain in Bleach|
    |Use the espada sig and Credit Geoff|

  4. #64
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Hitsugaya v. Ulquiorra

    Quote Originally Posted by Ozehro View Post
    actually his speed went down because of senkei. this is what Ichigo himself observes. but he mistakenly thought that Byakuya had gotten faster
    after senkei. but then byakuya says senkei only affects his attack.
    also the drop in speed happened almost immediately after senkei was used.
    there's also confirmation from shirosaki. chapter 166 page 5.
    Ichigo did not say it was because of senkei though. The only reason actually given in the manga for that is that ichigo's body simply could not take it anymore and was already at it's limit. How would senkei, which simply concentrates the blades of senbonsakura, make ichigo any slower?

  5. #65
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    Re: Hitsugaya v. Ulquiorra

    If you think of senkei so literally, how does senkei make Byakuya any stronger (offensively)?

    My opinion, which goes along with Ozehro's, is that the purpose of the thousand blades surrounding Byakuya and his opponent is to basically oppress the reiatsu of the opponent. I mean, I can't say for sure that that's what senkei is, but that's what I think it is, and it kind of makes sense.

    I mean, if the only purpose of senkei is the compress the blades into swords, senkei is useless compared to byakuya's final form, why make 1000 swords and wield one isntead of make 1.
    Current Theories/Beliefs for Bleach:
    -Barragan and Halibel arn't goners yet-Confirmed
    -Ukitake has an absorb and redirect type shikai (think baby nel vs. Dardonii's cero)-Confirmed
    -The VL army/group that Aizen supposedly has doesn't exist-Pending/Waiting for confirmation on Wonderweiss
    -The Vizards have ulterior motives, by ulterior I mean they arn't just going to be goody-two-shoes and help out the SS that betrayed them just to get back at Aizen-Pending

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  7. #66
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Ozehro's Avatar
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    Re: Hitsugaya v. Ulquiorra

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Ichigo did not say it was because of senkei though. The only reason actually given in the manga for that is that ichigo's body simply could not take it anymore and was already at it's limit. How would senkei, which simply concentrates the blades of senbonsakura, make ichigo any slower?
    no, Ichigo had no idea why he was slow. no actually he didn't think
    he was slow. he thought byakuya was getting faster after he used senkei. then byakuya adds in saying it doesn't affect speed, just attack. and finally we get confirmation from shirosaki.

    http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/166/05/
    Quote Quote:
    just being in his bankai's pressure made your bones shake like
    crazy!
    also Ichigo's speed was only negatively influenced soon after byakuya
    used senkei. so it's clear that senkei is what caused the crushing
    reiatsu pressure...

    *Predictions:*
    |Ulquiorra was the only VL under Aizen|
    |Aizen is not the last villain in Bleach|
    |Use the espada sig and Credit Geoff|

  8. #67
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Hitsugaya v. Ulquiorra

    That does not prove byakuya's reiatsu made ichigo slower. It only proves ichigo was scared shittless of byakuya.

  9. #68
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Ozehro's Avatar
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    Re: Hitsugaya v. Ulquiorra

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    That does not prove byakuya's reiatsu made ichigo slower. It only proves ichigo was scared shittless of byakuya.
    how does that not prove it? Ichigo wasn;t at all scared. he just suddenly
    noticed that Byakuya became faster all of a sudden after using senkei.
    he simply had no idea what was really going on. which then byakuya explains
    away by saying senkei only improves attack. and finally shirosaki confirms
    about the pressure of byakuya bankai affecting ichigo...

    *Predictions:*
    |Ulquiorra was the only VL under Aizen|
    |Aizen is not the last villain in Bleach|
    |Use the espada sig and Credit Geoff|

  10. #69
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Hitsugaya v. Ulquiorra

    Quote Originally Posted by Ozehro View Post
    how does that not prove it? Ichigo wasn;t at all scared. he just suddenly
    noticed that Byakuya became faster all of a sudden after using senkei.
    he simply had no idea what was really going on. which then byakuya explains
    away by saying senkei only improves attack. and finally shirosaki confirms
    about the pressure of byakuya bankai affecting ichigo...
    I guess your interpretation of that statement is different from mine. Saying "just being in his reiatsy makes you bones shake like crazy" does not mean the reiatsu is actually crushing him. Shaking is something that happens when you are scared, something of which ichigo has been repeatedly accused throughtout the manga. Ichigo at the time of that fight was already on par with a gotei 13 captain, there is no way byakuya's reiatsu would affect him that way.

    Also, byakuya stated that the reason for ichigo getting slower was that ichigo's body was at it's limit. If kensei could influence ichigo's speed byakuya would have mentioned it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Eddy01741 View Post
    If you think of senkei so literally, how does senkei make Byakuya any stronger (offensively)?

    My opinion, which goes along with Ozehro's, is that the purpose of the thousand blades surrounding Byakuya and his opponent is to basically oppress the reiatsu of the opponent. I mean, I can't say for sure that that's what senkei is, but that's what I think it is, and it kind of makes sense.

    I mean, if the only purpose of senkei is the compress the blades into swords, senkei is useless compared to byakuya's final form, why make 1000 swords and wield one isntead of make 1.
    http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/165/15/

    Senkei does nothing but unite the millions of blades of senbonsakura. There is no evidence to support it does anything else. That means each blade in senkei has an increased attack power in comparison to byakuya's original sealed blade. That means that the blade byakuya used against bankai ichigo while in senkei had more destructive power than the original sealed blade. Not to mention byakuya has the power to use the blades that make up senkei to strike at any time.
    http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/165/10/
    Last edited by kkck; July 01, 2009 at 10:20 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

  11. #70
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Aikidoka's Avatar
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    Re: Hitsugaya v. Ulquiorra

    Maybe this would discussion would fit better in a Ichigo vs. Byakuya canon discussion, don't you think?

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  13. #71
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Ozehro's Avatar
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    Re: Hitsugaya v. Ulquiorra

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    I guess your interpretation of that statement is different from mine. Saying "just being in his reiatsy makes you bones shake like crazy" does not mean the reiatsu is actually crushing him. Shaking is something that happens when you are scared, something of which ichigo has been repeatedly accused throughtout the manga. Ichigo at the time of that fight was already on par with a gotei 13 captain, there is no way byakuya's reiatsu would affect him that way.
    no the hint is that byakuya's senkei put pressure on him.
    and for the duration of Ichigo's battle we caught glimpse of his inner thoughts. and there was not even sign of fear as he started getting slower.. just confusion since he thought byakuya was getting faster.
    basically what happened was before senkei, Ichigo was moving only his weight. after senkei, Ichigo was moving his weight plus the pressure exerted on him. hence he became slower than byakuya.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Also, byakuya stated that the reason for ichigo getting slower was that ichigo's body was at it's limit. If kensei could influence ichigo's speed byakuya would have mentioned it.
    no he didn't say that. he didn't say ichigo was getting slower because ichigo was at his limit. he stabbed a sword through his toe, blasted a
    kido through his chest and then he said Ichigo had reached his limit
    just before he was going to deal the death blow. there was no relation
    made to his speed. byakuya was most likely commenting that after his
    kido attack, Ichigo had reached the limit. lol.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aikidoka View Post
    Maybe this would discussion would fit better in a Ichigo vs. Byakuya canon discussion, don't you think?
    nah we were going on a secondary point. I used byakuya to approximate hitsugaya's strength that's why we are talking about byakuya.lol.
    Last edited by Ozehro; July 01, 2009 at 11:35 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

    *Predictions:*
    |Ulquiorra was the only VL under Aizen|
    |Aizen is not the last villain in Bleach|
    |Use the espada sig and Credit Geoff|

  14. #72
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Hitsugaya v. Ulquiorra

    Quote Originally Posted by Ozehro View Post
    no the hint is that byakuya's senkei put pressure on him.
    and for the duration of Ichigo's battle we caught glimpse of his inner thoughts. and there was not even sign of fear as he started getting slower.. just confusion since he thought byakuya was getting faster.
    basically what happened was before senkei, Ichigo was moving only his weight. after senkei, Ichigo was moving his weight plus the pressure exerted on him. hence he became slower than byakuya.
    That's why I say our interpretation of the shirosaki statement is different. Reiatsu only has a tool on you when there is a more than significant difference between yours and that of the oponnent. There is no way byakuya has so much reiatsu that it actually would affect ichigo in that way. Byakuya would have to be close to aizen's level for that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ozehro View Post
    no he didn't say that. he didn't say ichigo was getting slower because ichigo was at his limit. he stabbed a sword through his toe, blasted a
    kido through his chest and then he said Ichigo had reached his limit
    just before he was going to deal the death blow. there was no relation
    made to his speed. byakuya was most likely commenting that after his
    kido attack, Ichigo had reached the limit. lol.
    Byakuya did say that, I even gave you the link.
    http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/165/15/

  15. #73
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: Hitsugaya v. Ulquiorra

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    I guess your interpretation of that statement is different from mine. Saying "just being in his reiatsy makes you bones shake like crazy" does not mean the reiatsu is actually crushing him. Shaking is something that happens when you are scared, something of which ichigo has been repeatedly accused throughtout the manga. Ichigo at the time of that fight was already on par with a gotei 13 captain, there is no way byakuya's reiatsu would affect him that way.
    Shirosaki didn't say Byakuya's reiatsu was making his bones shake, though, he said Byakuya's bankai's reiatsu was making his bones shake. Which is a strange statement in itself. His bankai's reiatsu? Bankais exert spiritual pressure of their own? I think that's where Ozehro is getting that Senkei might be specifically able to do that from. Whether or not senkei specifically does it can't be determined, but it's clear his bankai at least in general was increasing the spiritual pressure Ichigo was feeling.

    Also, I absolutely do not believe Shirosaki was simply saying Ichigo was afraid. If that was his intention, he could have just said "he's making your bones shake" in an exaggerative way, but he specifically said that not just reiatsu, but Byakuya's bankai's reiatsu was making his bones shake. Looking at it from a writing perspective, it's clear to me Kubo was trying to point something out with that, as I don't think he would have thought of a line that could be taken any other way than "you're afraid of him" if that was all he wanted Shirosaki to be saying.

  16. #74
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Hitsugaya v. Ulquiorra

    Quote Originally Posted by JP_Russell View Post
    Shirosaki didn't say Byakuya's reiatsu was making his bones shake, though, he said Byakuya's bankai's reiatsu was making his bones shake. Which is a strange statement in itself. His bankai's reiatsu? Bankais exert spiritual pressure of their own? I think that's where Ozehro is getting that Senkei might be specifically able to do that from. Whether or not senkei specifically does it can't be determined, but it's clear his bankai at least in general was increasing the spiritual pressure Ichigo was feeling.
    Zampakuto's releasing reiatsu is not anything new, they all do that(granted that with varying degrees of power).
    http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/111/05/
    http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/193/08/
    http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/205/18/


    Quote Originally Posted by JP_Russell View Post
    Also, I absolutely do not believe Shirosaki was simply saying Ichigo was afraid. If that was his intention, he could have just said "he's making your bones shake" in an exaggerative way, but he specifically said that not just reiatsu, but Byakuya's bankai's reiatsu was making his bones shake. Looking at it from a writing perspective, it's clear to me Kubo was trying to point something out with that, as I don't think he would have thought of a line that could be taken any other way than "you're afraid of him" if that was all he wanted Shirosaki to be saying.
    I am going to look for more translations of that chapter, but IMHO shirosaki meant ichigo deep down feared byakuya and his bankai. If senkei could or did make ichigo slower, byakuya would have said so IMO because it was relevant to what he said when he talked about ichigo getting slower.
    Last edited by kkck; July 01, 2009 at 01:27 PM.

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    Re: Hitsugaya v. Ulquiorra

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post

    Senkei does nothing but unite the millions of blades of senbonsakura. There is no evidence to support it does anything else. That means each blade in senkei has an increased attack power in comparison to byakuya's original sealed blade. That means that the blade byakuya used against bankai ichigo while in senkei had more destructive power than the original sealed blade. Not to mention byakuya has the power to use the blades that make up senkei to strike at any time.
    http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/165/10/
    Okay, then you are essentially saying that Senkei is useless in comparison to Byakuya's final form.

    Why would you make 1000 swords (he used 1000 zanpakutou to make his million blades of kageyoshi, so I'd assume he'd remake 1000 for senkei) and wield only one when you could just compress it all into one and wield it?

    Plus, the ability for Byakuya to use his other 999 swords that he's not wielding is supportive at best. It's not like he'd actually use the other 999 to attack Ichigo all at once, that'd just be his normal senbonzakura kageyoshi, but worse (I'd rather have 1 million mini-blades than 1000 zanpakutou for chasing and surrounding the enemy).

    You interpret the effect of Senkei so literally, as in, he uses his million mini-blades and makes a bunch of swords out of them, and then uses one of those swords.

    That's completely useless in comparison to Byakuya's final form, where he compresses all his blades to form one sword.
    Current Theories/Beliefs for Bleach:
    -Barragan and Halibel arn't goners yet-Confirmed
    -Ukitake has an absorb and redirect type shikai (think baby nel vs. Dardonii's cero)-Confirmed
    -The VL army/group that Aizen supposedly has doesn't exist-Pending/Waiting for confirmation on Wonderweiss
    -The Vizards have ulterior motives, by ulterior I mean they arn't just going to be goody-two-shoes and help out the SS that betrayed them just to get back at Aizen-Pending

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