Not a member? Register now!
Announcements
Manga returns! Catch up with the details. Enjoy downloading, translating, and scanlating manga HERE legally!
Like us on Facebook, follow us on Twitter! Celebrate another year with MH and read our yearbook.
Manga News: Check out this week's new manga (9/8/14 - 9/14/14).
Forum News: Visit new sections for Nisekoi and Kingdom!
Translations: Bleach 595 (2) , Gintama 509 by Bomber D Rufi

View Poll Results: Who wins?

Voters
36. You may not vote on this poll
  • Hitsugaya wins

    7 19.44%
  • Ulquiorra wins

    29 80.56%
New Reply
Page 6 of 16 FirstFirst ... 4 5 6 7 8 ... LastLast
Results 76 to 90 of 227

Thread: Hitsugaya vs Ulquiorra

  1. #76
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    wherever cookies can't get to me...(as if such a place existed...)
    Country
    Galactic Empire
    Posts
    18,737
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Hitsugaya v. Ulquiorra

    Quote Originally Posted by Eddy01741 View Post
    Okay, then you are essentially saying that Senkei is useless in comparison to Byakuya's final form.

    Why would you make 1000 swords (he used 1000 zanpakutou to make his million blades of kageyoshi, so I'd assume he'd remake 1000 for senkei) and wield only one when you could just compress it all into one and wield it?

    Plus, the ability for Byakuya to use his other 999 swords that he's not wielding is supportive at best. It's not like he'd actually use the other 999 to attack Ichigo all at once, that'd just be his normal senbonzakura kageyoshi, but worse (I'd rather have 1 million mini-blades than 1000 zanpakutou for chasing and surrounding the enemy).

    You interpret the effect of Senkei so literally, as in, he uses his million mini-blades and makes a bunch of swords out of them, and then uses one of those swords.

    That's completely useless in comparison to Byakuya's final form, where he compresses all his blades to form one sword.
    Which part of my post makes senkei seem useless? To be completely honest I have a very high opinion of it. Even though byakuya did not attack ichigo with all the swords at once, he actually is perfectly capable of doing it. For instance he did it to impale ichigo's foot. Now, each and every one of those swords is made up of millions of blades, meaning each of them has an increase in destructive power in comparison to his original sealed sword. Frankly, I think that is incredible. Obviously concentrating his blades into a single sword is more effective but that does not mean senkei is useless as you think I am suggesting.

    Now, I do interpret it literally that is true, but what other way is there to do it? What you guys are telling me is that you assume (without evidence) that senkei can do more stuff (which was never suggested or implied in the manga) because otherwise it would not be useful(something on which I completely disagree because senkei is very useful).

  2. #77
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Country
    United States
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    1,437
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Hitsugaya v. Ulquiorra

    Tell me, how is having 1000 swords attacking your opponent any better than having 1 million little petal sized blades attacking the opponent?

    If senkei was supposed to be having 1000 swords attacking the opponent, Byakuya would have done just that instead of caging himself in an arena with Ichigo with his swords surrounding him.
    Current Theories/Beliefs for Bleach:
    -Barragan and Halibel arn't goners yet-Confirmed
    -Ukitake has an absorb and redirect type shikai (think baby nel vs. Dardonii's cero)-Confirmed
    -The VL army/group that Aizen supposedly has doesn't exist-Pending/Waiting for confirmation on Wonderweiss
    -The Vizards have ulterior motives, by ulterior I mean they arn't just going to be goody-two-shoes and help out the SS that betrayed them just to get back at Aizen-Pending

  3. #78
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Country
    United States
    Age
    25
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    411
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Hitsugaya v. Ulquiorra

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    If kensei could or did make ichigo slower, byakuya would have said so IMO because it was relevant to what he said when he talked about ichigo getting slower.
    Ha, ha, I agree, if Kensei made Ichigo slower Byakuya definitely would have said something about it.

  4. #79
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    wherever cookies can't get to me...(as if such a place existed...)
    Country
    Galactic Empire
    Posts
    18,737
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Hitsugaya v. Ulquiorra

    Quote Originally Posted by Eddy01741 View Post
    Tell me, how is having 1000 swords attacking your opponent any better than having 1 million little petal sized blades attacking the opponent?

    If senkei was supposed to be having 1000 swords attacking the opponent, Byakuya would have done just that instead of caging himself in an arena with Ichigo with his swords surrounding him.
    The difference is the sheer difference in attacking power of each blade. Also, byakuya did use the blades of the cage. Granted he did not use them all at once but they did catch ichigo of guard.

    I still think you should not assume senkie does stuff just because otherwise you would think it is useless or less practical. I for one, think the cage thing was very powerful and useful...

    Quote Quote:
    Ha, ha, I agree, if Kensei made Ichigo slower Byakuya definitely would have said something about it.
    Lol, sorry bout that..... Obviously I meant senkei.

  5. #80
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Country
    United States
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    1,437
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Hitsugaya v. Ulquiorra

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    The difference is the sheer difference in attacking power of each blade. Also, byakuya did use the blades of the cage. Granted he did not use them all at once but they did catch ichigo of guard.
    I don't see how 1000 swords manipulated by the hands/mind of Byakuya>1 million mini blades manipulated by the hands/mind of Byakuya.

    Why bother to make the mini-blades swords, kinda loses the versatility there.

    THe only reason i see that is indisputable so far for Byakuya to have more offensive power is that he is directly wielding a sword made of compressed mini-blades. Obviously having your sword being made up of compressed mini-blades>over a normal zanpakutou, but I don't see how that'd help in the attacking power if as you say, Byakuya attacks the opponent with them directly (in other words, he doens't form a cage, he just has the 1000 swords attack the enemy).

    Bottom Line: I don't think that Senkei is supposed to be about using multiple or all the swords that Byakuya formed with the mini-blades at once. Since that's redundant, it'd be the same thing as what Byakuya did with his normal Senbonzakura Kageyoshi. I think that Byakuya makes the "cage" for a reason, instead of just forming 1000 swords and attacking the enemy with them simultaneously.

    Quote Quote:
    I still think you should not assume senkie does stuff just because otherwise you would think it is useless or less practical. I for one, think the cage thing was very powerful and useful...
    I realize, and that's why my opinion on Senkei is more of a theory (filled with in my opinions, and I thinks). As right now, by directly interpreting the ability of Senkei, it just seems like a weaker version of Byakuya's final form of bankai. As in Senkei, Byakuya supposedly forms 1000 swords with his mini-blades, but yet he only wields one of them (he did use another to immobilize Ichigo though), why not just form one super powerful sword instead of 1000, since Byakuya only wields one sword at a time.
    Current Theories/Beliefs for Bleach:
    -Barragan and Halibel arn't goners yet-Confirmed
    -Ukitake has an absorb and redirect type shikai (think baby nel vs. Dardonii's cero)-Confirmed
    -The VL army/group that Aizen supposedly has doesn't exist-Pending/Waiting for confirmation on Wonderweiss
    -The Vizards have ulterior motives, by ulterior I mean they arn't just going to be goody-two-shoes and help out the SS that betrayed them just to get back at Aizen-Pending

  6. #81
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    wherever cookies can't get to me...(as if such a place existed...)
    Country
    Galactic Empire
    Posts
    18,737
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Hitsugaya v. Ulquiorra

    Quote Originally Posted by Eddy01741 View Post
    I don't see how 1000 swords manipulated by the hands/mind of Byakuya>1 million mini blades manipulated by the hands/mind of Byakuya.

    Why bother to make the mini-blades swords, kinda loses the versatility there.

    THe only reason i see that is indisputable so far for Byakuya to have more offensive power is that he is directly wielding a sword made of compressed mini-blades. Obviously having your sword being made up of compressed mini-blades>over a normal zanpakutou, but I don't see how that'd help in the attacking power if as you say, Byakuya attacks the opponent with them directly (in other words, he doens't form a cage, he just has the 1000 swords attack the enemy).

    Bottom Line: I don't think that Senkei is supposed to be about using multiple or all the swords that Byakuya formed with the mini-blades at once. Since that's redundant, it'd be the same thing as what Byakuya did with his normal Senbonzakura Kageyoshi. I think that Byakuya makes the "cage" for a reason, instead of just forming 1000 swords and attacking the enemy with them simultaneously.



    I realize, and that's why my opinion on Senkei is more of a theory (filled with in my opinions, and I thinks). As right now, by directly interpreting the ability of Senkei, it just seems like a weaker version of Byakuya's final form of bankai. As in Senkei, Byakuya supposedly forms 1000 swords with his mini-blades, but yet he only wields one of them (he did use another to immobilize Ichigo though), why not just form one super powerful sword instead of 1000, since Byakuya only wields one sword at a time.
    Thing is, the purpose of senkei is not the same as the purpose of the initial form of byakuya's bankai. sebonsakura's initial bankai form purpose is to surround the enemy from every angle and attack. Not to mention it has a great balance of attack and defence. The purpose of senkei is exclusively to increase attack power by concentrating the blades.
    http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/164/09/
    http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/165/15/

    As you can see, senkei and the initial form of his bankai have different purposes. In that sense, saying one if better than the other in unpractical and subjective. What is completely true though is that senkei has more attack power than the initial form of senbonsakura(otherwise it truly would be useless).

    Also, didn't byakuya at some point actually concentrated all the swords into one?
    http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/166/16/

    At least, that's what I thought that attack was, a concentration of all the blades of senbonsakura into one.

  7. #82
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Country
    United States
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    1,437
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Hitsugaya v. Ulquiorra

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Thing is, the purpose of senkei is not the same as the purpose of the initial form of byakuya's bankai. sebonsakura's initial bankai form purpose is to surround the enemy from every angle and attack. Not to mention it has a great balance of attack and defence. The purpose of senkei is exclusively to increase attack power by concentrating the blades.
    http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/164/09/
    http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/165/15/

    As you can see, senkei and the initial form of his bankai have different purposes. In that sense, saying one if better than the other in unpractical and subjective. What is completely true though is that senkei has more attack power than the initial form of senbonsakura(otherwise it truly would be useless).

    Also, didn't byakuya at some point actually concentrated all the swords into one?
    http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/166/16/

    At least, that's what I thought that attack was, a concentration of all the blades of senbonsakura into one.
    Okay, at least we agree that Senkei should be used differently than his initial bankai (I hear a lotta people saying that Byakuya should just have all of his swords formed in senkei go after the opponent all at once).

    However, then, what is the point of using senkei instead of final form (shuukei)? Shuukei is clearly the more powerful one if looked at directly, since Senkei creates like a thousand swords, while Shuukei compresses it all into one (like I was saying before). Why create a thousand and wield one, when you could just create one super powerful sword.

    Basically, I agree with you that Senkei obviously has more attack power than the initial form of Senbonzakura Kageyoshi, but if Senkei is as simple as it seems, I'd think that it's inferior in most aspects to Shuukei, mostly since it creates so many unused swords (byakuya made a shitload of swords to make a "cage" around himself and Ichigo, he used a total of one for direct fighting, and he used an additional one to immobilize Ichigo).

    I'm just wondering, that if Byakuya's senkei does nothing more than increase his attack power by putting the power of his mini-blades into the palms of his hand (in a weapon he can use by himself, a sword), why bother making so many other ones to cage in the opponent? Might as well concentrate more blades to make your own sword stronger, like shuukei.
    Current Theories/Beliefs for Bleach:
    -Barragan and Halibel arn't goners yet-Confirmed
    -Ukitake has an absorb and redirect type shikai (think baby nel vs. Dardonii's cero)-Confirmed
    -The VL army/group that Aizen supposedly has doesn't exist-Pending/Waiting for confirmation on Wonderweiss
    -The Vizards have ulterior motives, by ulterior I mean they arn't just going to be goody-two-shoes and help out the SS that betrayed them just to get back at Aizen-Pending

  8. #83
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    wherever cookies can't get to me...(as if such a place existed...)
    Country
    Galactic Empire
    Posts
    18,737
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Hitsugaya v. Ulquiorra

    ^But then again, senkei and shukei are as different as senkei and the initial form of senbonsakura kageyoshi. Or at least you could see them that way.

    With senkei you have the oportunity to suckerpunch the enemy at any time like byakuya did to ichigo plus it probably is not nearly as extreme as shukei. Shukei, being a more powerful technique, most likely has a greater toll on byakuya and certainly requires a greater effort on his part. Obviously shukei has greater destructive power than kensei, yet it probably is better not to take things as far as that is possible. At least that's the traditional manga logic where for fanservice purposes characters hold back as long as possible lol.

    Its like saying, why does ichigo bother using melee combat if he can just finish his oponents with GT. It would be much more effective to just use a single full powered GT from the start and get over with the fighting proccess(not very interesting to read IMHO).

  9. #84
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member Starky-08's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Greystones, Ireland
    Country
    Ireland
    Age
    21
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    168
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Hitsugaya v. Ulquiorra

    Hitsugaya wins, because everyone hates him because he's a kid and is popular, that's not why he wins, he wins with both intellect and strenght.

    Click Image to Join
    I'm in need of members! and Mods!

  10. #85
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Ozehro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Country
    New Zealand
    Age
    26
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    997
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Hitsugaya v. Ulquiorra

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    That's why I say our interpretation of the shirosaki statement is different. Reiatsu only has a tool on you when there is a more than significant difference between yours and that of the oponnent. There is no way byakuya has so much reiatsu that it actually would affect ichigo in that way. Byakuya would have to be close to aizen's level for that.
    you are completely missing the point. it wasn't that Byakuya had so much more reiatsu. it's that the senkei mode thrusts pressure on Ichigo.
    It didn't make him weaker but it made him slower. there's no other
    logical explanation that fits the manga so well.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Byakuya did say that, I even gave you the link.
    http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/165/15/
    Byakuya didn't say that in context to Ichigo's speed. he said that
    because he had stabbed ichigo's foot and blasted his chest with
    a kido. Byakuya in otherwords had just about immobilized Ichigo and
    that's what his comment reflects. seriously dud read chapters 163
    on wards. it follows a logical pattern.

    *Predictions:*
    |Ulquiorra was the only VL under Aizen|
    |Aizen is not the last villain in Bleach|
    |Use the espada sig and Credit Geoff|

  11. #86
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    wherever cookies can't get to me...(as if such a place existed...)
    Country
    Galactic Empire
    Posts
    18,737
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Hitsugaya v. Ulquiorra

    Quote Originally Posted by Ozehro View Post
    you are completely missing the point. it wasn't that Byakuya had so much more reiatsu. it's that the senkei mode thrusts pressure on Ichigo.
    It didn't make him weaker but it made him slower. there's no other
    logical explanation that fits the manga so well.

    Byakuya didn't say that in context to Ichigo's speed. he said that
    because he had stabbed ichigo's foot and blasted his chest with
    a kido. Byakuya in otherwords had just about immobilized Ichigo and
    that's what his comment reflects. seriously dud read chapters 163
    on wards. it follows a logical pattern.
    You are the one who thinks the explanation given in the manga does not make sense though.

    You keep saying that about senkei but there simply is no real evidence to support it. You are supporting that claim with basically your opinion. There is no link that ever makes a real reference to senkei being responsible for ichigo's loss of speed.

    Byakuya's comments reflects everything ichigo had recently went through. He talks about his fights, his wounds, everything. He says all of that because it all led to ichigo's body eventually not being able to take more which lead to his decrease in speed and eventual completely paralysis(until shirosaki interfered).

    Seriously, just read this 3 links:
    http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/165/13/
    http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/165/14/
    http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/165/15/

    What byakuya says about ichigo reaching his limit has little to do with his leg being impaled. Byakuya even removes that sword. He explicitly states ichigo's body can't take it anymore and the reason for this. Byakuya never once talked about senkei's reiatsu. Ichigo himself concludes from what byakuya said that he got slower(and it had nothing to do with senkei). Byakuya did not correct him and procceded to explain that ichigo's body could simply not take it anymore because of all his recent fights and wounds.


    Also, as for this part:
    http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/166/05/

    I consulted cnet128 about it and apparently I was wrong lol. According to him though, you were also wrong. After that I looked for the official english dub which corroborated what cnet said. What shirosaki meant in that page is that ichigo was being crushed by the power of his own bankai. Shirosaki did not say anything about senkei crushing ichigo with it's pressure nor about ichigo being afraid. I guess that means ichigo's own bankai was too much to handle and made him slower as the fight progressed.
    Last edited by kkck; July 02, 2009 at 11:12 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

  12. Thanks 1 Member(s) thanked this post
  13. #87
    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member XEL's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Country
    United States
    Age
    21
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    81
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Hitsugaya v. Ulquiorra

    I think that Hitsu would lose horribly. I think the highest he can beat would be Nnoitra. I mean I just feel that between 5th and 4th the power gap is just huge..


    Washington 2012
    ~ We're baaaaaaaaaack ~

  14. #88
    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Country
    United States
    Posts
    64
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Hitsugaya v. Ulquiorra

    I'd say Ulquiorra, because that final form of his is pretty rough stuff. Hitsugaya might have a chance through sheer will though, since he is a tryhard. Conversely, Ulquiorra, like all nihilists, cares about nothing... Lebowski (had too.)

  15. #89
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Ozehro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Country
    New Zealand
    Age
    26
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    997
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Hitsugaya v. Ulquiorra

    Spoiler show



    ichigo was completely out doing byakuya's petal form of attack in his bankai.
    during this time there wasn;t even a hint of slowing down.
    but all of a sudden after byakuya goes senkei, he slows down at a very fast rate!
    Ichigo observes this as byakuya getting faster after senkei.
    so that tells us the time when the symptom shows up. the time being
    almost directly after senkei.

    that's hint number 1.(Time of symptom)

    Byakuya then says his senkei only influence attack.
    It confirmed that byakuya didn't get faster but that it was
    chigo who got slower. is byakuya's increased attack correlated to
    ichigo's decrease in speed?

    that's hint number 2.(possible cause)

    byakuya totally owns Ichigo with kido and a sword through his foot.
    then shirosaki comes and insults Ichigo for crumbling under byakuya's
    bankai pressure. exact quote is
    Quote Quote:
    Just being in his bankai pressure made your bones shake like crazy!
    http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/166/05/

    that's hint number 3.(the manner it was caused!)

    so hint 1, gives us the time the symptom occurred. hint 2 says that
    byakuya only had his attack influenced. hint 3 says in what manner that
    attack strength influenced Ichigo. put all the hints together and you
    get your answer! which is that it was senkei's thrusting of pressure
    that slowed Ichigo down. note it didn't make him weaker just slower.

    which is far more logical than Ichigo crumbling from his own bankai.
    also it's important to note that, the interpretation I described is consistent
    with all the parts of those chapters! it fits the timing of the symptom, and
    the comments of the characters!

    basically before senkei, ichigo was moving around his own weight,
    but after senkei Ichigo was moving while also carrying extra weight
    in the form of pressure. his weight increased therefore he couldn't
    reach those same high speeds as before! it's quite logical don't you think?
    --------------------------------

    and yea I think Ulq will defeat hitsugaya quite easily. after such a strong attack
    harribel doesn't even have a scratch on her!
    Last edited by Ozehro; July 02, 2009 at 11:10 PM.

    *Predictions:*
    |Ulquiorra was the only VL under Aizen|
    |Aizen is not the last villain in Bleach|
    |Use the espada sig and Credit Geoff|

  16. #90
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    wherever cookies can't get to me...(as if such a place existed...)
    Country
    Galactic Empire
    Posts
    18,737
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Hitsugaya v. Ulquiorra

    As I mentioned in my previous post, this:
    http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/166/05/
    Is a mistranslation. What shirosaki actually said was that ichigo was being crushed by his own bankai, not byakuya's. That's why shirosaki said he will teach ichigo how to properly use bankai(I confirmed that with c-net and the official english dub BTW).

    Also, hint 1 is purely circumstantial. Given what shirosaki actually said about ichigo being crushed by his bankai it would make sense that as ichigo fought he progressively got slower and only after senkei ichigo actually felt it. It is also possible that receiving blows from the sword made of concentrate petals made the process faster though(but that does not mean ichigo was being crushed by byakuya's senkei).
    Last edited by kkck; July 03, 2009 at 02:46 AM.

New Reply
Page 6 of 16 FirstFirst ... 4 5 6 7 8 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts