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Thread: Wabisuke (Not Kira, just his sword)

  1. #1
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Josear XIII's Avatar
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    Wabisuke (Not Kira, just his sword)

    I think this has been talked but i need to talk it.
    Ok, Since i will be wanting to go on a rant for this (just kidding) i want to clarify something about this guy.

    As i have understood everyone thinks that Wabizuke can double the weight of everything it touches including any types of living beings. So in this regard a lot of people had put Kira into a high rank when it comes to shinigami without counting Captains.

    But sorry i cant just go and accept this as a truth, not at least till all the odd are against mines, and the whole theory becomes cornered and if there are people who actually sides with me, it will be a good time for them to appear. Since i have my ways of analyze the facts that are in my hands. Ok here i go ready or not:

    Wabizuke as i have seen being used onto several fights from were we can count. Matsumoto and Avirama, where he actually used his ability and explain it on each. I do recognize for the second one that he states that he can doubles anything it touches:

    Quote Quote:
    18
    Abirama: ...Ngh... / ...Shit... // What's wrong...? My wing just suddenly...
    Kira: Doubling the weight of anything it slices. // A second slice means double that. // And a third doubles it yet again.

    19
    Kira: That is the power... // ...of my zanpakutou, "Wabisuke". // When you made that charge just then... / ...I sliced almost every feather on the wing you used to attack four times. // If those wings of yours truly are "heavier than rock"... // ...then there's no way you should be able to fly now.
    Abirama: Playing tricks on me, huh? That's pretty dirty... // And you call yourself a true warrior...?!
    Kira: "Dirty"?
    But sorry for me it does not mean there is nothing in the universe it can double its weight, the way i see it, he can only double the weight of not living things so he can double the weight of "anything" but not "Anyone's" weight.

    Something can dull my theory and that is the way Avirama's wing got more weight but as i said in a lot of threads an arrancar's releases turn the sword into a cover for its whole body so is like they are wearing their sword.

    And let's go waaaaaaay back! to the battle with Matsumoto, if its zampakutoh could double the weight even on Living beings, Matsumoto would have lost a long ago, since kira is good at kidoh, zanjutsu, and shunpo. SOOOOOOO how come matsu won without a scrath so kira could not even double her arm or something

    http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/172/12/

    So what are the facts, none of them tell me that he can double weight a person. Because everyone praise Kira as if he could beat a lot of people even if they are, Hakuda, Kidoh or Hohou experts. As i see it if he could double the weight even in living beings he could beat even komamura A CAPTAIN!, he could even beat Tosuen, if he werent on bankai, A LOT OF CHARACTERS WOULD FALL TO KIRA'S FEETS IF HE COULD DOUBLE WEIGHT LIVING BEINGS CHARACTERS.

    So lets start the rumble


    EDIT:

    TRASNLATION OF THE KIRA EXPLANATION WHICH KILLS MY LOGIC WITH ONE WORD:

    ALL

    Quote Originally Posted by cnet128 View Post
    20
    Kira: Excellent reactions!
    Rangiku: What are you...?!
    Kira: Just now... // How many times did you block it? / My blade.
    Rangiku: Huh?

    21
    Rangiku: !
    Kira: Doubling the weight of all that it strikes. // A second hit redoubles that weight. / A third doubles it yet again. // And thus...

    22
    Kira: The opponent, unable to bear this increased weight, will inevitably... // ...prostrate themselves upon the ground... / ...thrusting their head out as though apologising. // Thus the name... // "Wabisuke". [Apologiser] // You blocked Wabisuke's strikes... / ...a total of seven times just now. // If your blade originally weighed, say, 0.8 kilograms, / then multiplied by two to the power of seven, it is now 102.4 kilograms. // Not the kind of weight... // ...that can be carried about too easily.
    Rangiku: ...So what? // If I can't carry it about... // ...then I'll just have to not hold it at all! // (Gin......)
    But i still wont agree with this since this is from vs matsumoto, and the first is more recent from vs Avirama
    Last edited by Josear XIII; June 15, 2009 at 10:35 AM. Reason: Adding something

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member ryanzokuken's Avatar
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    Re: Kira's Shikai

    for the most part, i agree.
    but as for whether he can or can't weigh a person themself down, we have no idea.

    i guess it's irrelevant, because if he landed a hit on their body, it would cut them anyways. so for example, if his sword struck Matsu's arm, it should just cut it off. once removed, what's it matter if the arm is doubled in weight?

    but that brings me to another question.

    let's say, hypothetically, that Kira was fighting a released Grimmjow. (he'd die in one moment, i know. this is just an example used for Grimmjow's release body type.)

    Grimmjow has those blades on his forearms/elbows. well, let's say they were in a melee and Kira was by some miracle actually surviving.

    what would happen if Grimm blocked Kira's sword with his forearm?
    how would the weight doubling work?
    would it weigh down Grimmjow's entire body, since his arm is part of it?
    would it weigh down his entire arm, but only his arm? (from shoulder down)
    would it weigh down his arm just from, say, the elbow downwards?
    etc. etc. you get my point.

    basically we don't know much about Wabisuke.

  3. #3
    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member Tonguen_yomom's Avatar
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    Re: Kira's Shikai

    An arrancar's blade was a part of him before he underwent the mask-removal. Becoming an arrancar only seals in that part. So it's not as if he's wearing his inanimate sword as armor; he's restoring an animate part of himself.

    Still, if your "only works on non-living things" theory is correct, I wonder how that sword would work on Unohana's shikai or even Mayuri's bankai. Do those even count as living?

    And you know what really confused me? In one of the movies, you see Kira striking repeatedly at a cliff to make it collapse. If he does, in fact, double the weight of anything his sword touches, shouldn't it just double the weight of the earth? Maybe it just applies to a certain area he touches. How specified that is may be up to debate.

    Another thing to think about: can he double the weight of your arm if his sword just hits your sleeves? Or would it double the weight of the shirt or the sleeves themselves? I don't know, it's such a strange ability. It seems so overpowered at times but I need more information before I can make a real conclusion on its effectiveness.

    FYI, Komamura wouldn't lose if he's smart enough to stick to his shikai and do an overhand chop. That way, when Kira blocks the attack (I'm assuming it's a fairly quick strike) he doubles it's weight, it would just crush him.

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Josear XIII's Avatar
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    Re: Kira's Shikai

    Quote Originally Posted by Tonguen_yomom View Post
    FYI, Komamura wouldn't lose if he's smart enough to stick to his shikai and do an overhand chop. That way, when Kira blocks the attack (I'm assuming it's a fairly quick strike) he doubles it's weight, it would just crush him.
    And here i was underestimating the Doggy captain :P XD

    But the reason i was saying this is because in another thread we got to Kira's shikai and the result was this when i pointed that his shikai was that weak that if a Shinigame were skilled enough could just drop his sword and kick his ass with kidoh or Hakudo but this was the answer gave it to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Kira's shikai will double the weight of ANYTHING it hits. That means that if he hits any bodypart it will also get its weight doubled. That would mean not just a swordfighter would be rendered weaponless very fast but shunpo and hand to hand combat users would eventually be incapable of moving.
    EDIT:

    Well by the mouth of our good kira it seem ALL!!! that he touches gets double weighted even if still dont believe it.

    Quote Originally Posted by cnet128 View Post
    20
    Kira: Excellent reactions!
    Rangiku: What are you...?!
    Kira: Just now... // How many times did you block it? / My blade.
    Rangiku: Huh?

    21
    Rangiku: !
    Kira: Doubling the weight of all that it strikes. // A second hit redoubles that weight. / A third doubles it yet again. // And thus...

    22
    Kira: The opponent, unable to bear this increased weight, will inevitably... // ...prostrate themselves upon the ground... / ...thrusting their head out as though apologising. // Thus the name... // "Wabisuke". [Apologiser] // You blocked Wabisuke's strikes... / ...a total of seven times just now. // If your blade originally weighed, say, 0.8 kilograms, / then multiplied by two to the power of seven, it is now 102.4 kilograms. // Not the kind of weight... // ...that can be carried about too easily.
    Rangiku: ...So what? // If I can't carry it about... // ...then I'll just have to not hold it at all! // (Gin......)
    Last edited by Josear XIII; June 13, 2009 at 02:33 PM. Reason: Adds

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    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member Tonguen_yomom's Avatar
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    Re: Kira's Shikai

    Well, I think Kira was just making a generalization about his powers. I doubt he actually meant EVERYTHING.

    Think about it: If Kira just starts waving his zanpakuto around, would the air around him get heavier? What if he (for some reason.....let's say.....it killed his mother) starts slashing at the ocean? Would that get heavier? I say no. Because you can't determine where those things end and thus he would either have to make all of it heavier (which would make him a god...well, he's already a god...you know what I mean) or make none of it heavier.

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Chaoswind's Avatar
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    Re: Kira's Shikai

    I go with the area of effect in that case
    http://www.frikipedia.es/friki/Oliver_y_benji
    Give me a GOOD plot progression KUBO!!!

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    Re: Kira's Shikai

    Quote Originally Posted by Tonguen_yomom View Post
    Well, I think Kira was just making a generalization about his powers. I doubt he actually meant EVERYTHING.

    Think about it: If Kira just starts waving his zanpakuto around, would the air around him get heavier? What if he (for some reason.....let's say.....it killed his mother) starts slashing at the ocean? Would that get heavier? I say no. Because you can't determine where those things end and thus he would either have to make all of it heavier (which would make him a god...well, he's already a god...you know what I mean) or make none of it heavier.
    I'm thinking that there is likely some will factor involved in this, i.e., Kira has to have the intention of striking for the object to double. This seems to be the case if you consider other special effect zanpakutou powers like Zommari's Bruheria's Amor. He shoots out his Amor spell and it does just hit the air molecules in between his target; it goes for the target.

    (The most likely reason for Wabisuke not affecting the air is that Kubo hasn't put that much thought into it and has just assumed that we would accept it, but I'm trying to give an in-universe response. )

    It seems perfectly understandable to me that Matsumoto could win over Kira because of the powers of her Haineko. If he did not know the nature of her zanpakutou just as she didn't know the nature of his, she could have disposed of him quickly. Matsumoto is also a lieutenant, and we shouldn't assume that she is weak. Obviously, if she defeated Kira, then she must have the skills to do so.

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    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted zerocooldx's Avatar
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    Re: Kira's Shikai

    Kira is what you would call a situational fighter, at close range he really seems almost unbeatable. But if his opponent can keep some distance between himself and Kira. Then he is just as likely to get completely dominated, like he did for first part of his fight with Avirama. But of course Wabisuke's ability is also somewhat unexplained, like how long its effect lasts? Or how far does its ability span out? All i can say is that Kubo needs to do a little bit of a better job with explaining some Zanpaktou's abilities.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member conn-man's Avatar
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    Re: Kira's Shikai

    i was always under the impression that it was only metal things

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    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member Tonguen_yomom's Avatar
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    Re: Kira's Shikai

    Nah, if it were only metal things, he'd say so. Kira's not one to bluff like that. He also mentioned that thing about increasing the weight of his opponent's head until he bowed down in apology. Which gives me an idea: remember how Kira killed that bird guy? Imagine if instead of pulling the blade up, when he cradled his opponent's head in the crook of his sword, the weight doubles and the opponent cuts his own head off...that would be so cruel.....

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    Re: Kira's Shikai

    See all this makes you wonder-wth would happen if/when he gets bankai

    His sword seems overpowered as hell, even though he himself isnt that good which makes it about even. I mean he is very talanted at kido and can shunpo, but if he say fought Ishida he would be booooned. He doesnt have the skills to compensate for his zanpakutoh's deficencies-in this case he'd need an epic shunpo.

    As for its actuall ability id say the reason it doesnt apply to say the air around him is that it requires an element of mental activation-for example he had already struck Rangiku's sword but she didnt feel the effects until he explained his power-either there is a time delay or he can just make it happen when he wants to.

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    Re: Kira's Shikai

    Where are you getting "even though he himself isn't that good"? He's been shown to be a pretty proficient shinigami, as you said, good all around stats for zanjutsu, kido, and shunpo. Plus, he fights smart, as shown in the avirama battle.

    Anyways, of course he'd get owned by Ishida. Ishida isii like the perfect counter for Kira. Ranged, non physical combat. Oh, plus Ishida has his equivelent of shunpo (the puppet legs thing that let him move even when paralyzed by Mayuri's shikai) and all. So you can't expect a guy who uses an energy bow, with all energy based arrows, who is fast, to be defeated by Kira, since then Kira's only chance would be to strike Ishida up close, but that ain't happening since Ishida is fast.

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Josear XIII's Avatar
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    Re: Kira's Shikai

    Ok, you all are missing the point of this thread, KIRA' SHIKAI, im wandering what you think about the matter, but you are talking about kira in different combat situations. I just pointed those because i wanted to show the battles where he actually use Wabizuke(I Should change the Thread's name, in fact im gonna do it).

    PLEASE FROM THIS POINT ONWARD LETS TALK ABOUT WABIZUKE, NOT KIRA I WANT TO CLARIFY THE POINT THAT ITS EFFECT CANT DOUBLE THE WEIGHT OF EVERYTHING, BUT JUST ANYTHING AND NOT ANYONE.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tonguen_yomom View Post
    Nah, if it were only metal things, he'd say so. Kira's not one to bluff like that. He also mentioned that thing about increasing the weight of his opponent's head until he bowed down in apology. Which gives me an idea: remember how Kira killed that bird guy? Imagine if instead of pulling the blade up, when he cradled his opponent's head in the crook of his sword, the weight doubles and the opponent cuts his own head off...that would be so cruel.....
    Kira never talked about increasing the weight of someone's head, he just explained that when the affected could not stand the great weight imposed on him it would bow down and it would look like its apologizing (coz bow oneself down is considered as an apology or surrendering signal).

    For me, as a state, WABIZUKE CANT DOUBLE THE WEIGHT OF LIVING BEINGS just objects and etc
    Last edited by Josear XIII; June 15, 2009 at 02:23 PM. Reason: adding

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    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member Tonguen_yomom's Avatar
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    Re: WABIZUKE (NOT KIRA, JUST HIS SWORD)

    Quote Quote:
    Kira never talked about increasing the weight of someone's head, he just explained that when the affected could not stand the great weight imposed on him it would bow down and it would look like its apologizing (coz bow oneself down is considered as an apology or surrendering signal).
    I was assuming that increasing the weight of someone's head/body would be the reason he would bow down. Why else would the opponent bow his head down if Kira could only double the weight of his sword?

    You know, I wonder what would happen if Kira just went crazy with his sword and started hitting something like 1000 times. That would be 2^1000, which would make it heavier than...the universe.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member ryanzokuken's Avatar
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    Re: WABIZUKE (NOT KIRA, JUST HIS SWORD)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tonguen_yomom View Post
    I was assuming that increasing the weight of someone's head/body would be the reason he would bow down. Why else would the opponent bow his head down if Kira could only double the weight of his sword?
    because, you hold your sword in front of you, and when it dropped so heavily to the ground, unless you just let go of it completely, it would pull you down and forward, as if bowing.

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