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Thread: IS Blackbeard really a villain?

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    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member karthikmurs's Avatar
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    IS Blackbeard really a villain?

    Hello folks,

    On the current chapter discussion thread, there was this thing that was about to run hot.. Let me run it through here..

    I ask, Is Blackbeard really built up to be a villain?

    I feel no. He is not a villain type. He is the ultimate rival for Luffy among pirates. He is like a sworn enemy. What makes their relation more deadly than what Roger n WB had is that both Luffy and BB share common goal to be the Pirate King..

    If we see how Blackbeard has acted till now.

    1. He killed a crewmate on WB ship.

    First off, let me put a light note that this is not a rule for "every" pirate. It most certainly was an Iron clad rule on WB's ship. But AFAIK, its not a Golden rule among pirates or anything. Blackbeard openly said that he was on WB's ship solely for the purpose of finding the Devil Fruit. This shows he was cunning and that he was a schemer. But evil? Not here..

    2. Captured Ace and handed him over to Marines .

    Again, this cannot be deemed as an evil act. He was again covering his ass and he anyways wanted a guy with a bounty of over 100mil. Ace was not a bad bargain, yes?

    One thing that comes into mind here is his intention to take Level 6 prisoners into his team.. That was a place where Croc, Ace and even Jimbei were held. Level 6 prisoners were strong. So he wanted them in.

    3. Stole WB's powers.

    He took it because he could.. And it was so cool of him to do that.. After that, all those sneaky fellow otakus who were speculating that BB can have three different DF powers got an adrenaline shot..

    _____

    Apart from all these, look at his attitude when he speaks to Nami (nee chan). When he said "those two won the battle" even after all they did was eat Bellamy's abuses, rep was added to BB. And then his famous speech on "Pirates' dream". Even Luffy was so struck to that man that he was listening to him without even blinking his eye. He still referred to Ace as captain. He openly said he aspired to become like WB. Many things which people wouldn't normally do.. Imagine Arlong or Don Kreig or Kuro or any low life pirates having this kind of power.. I can bet they wouldn't be even half humble as BB was..

    Having said all these, I do understand these. His intention of becoming Pirate king is exactly opposite to that of Luffy. Where Luffy expresses freedom, BB expresses control. This basic thing indicates they both are North pole / South pole.


    Quote Originally Posted by Spike Spiegel View Post
    of course he is a villain..
    -responsible for the war
    -responsible for ace's death
    -killed one of his own mates!
    .......he is a sneaky little bastard
    he is responsible for all the shit Luffy is in right now...if that doesn't make him a villain of Luffy what exactly would make anybody a villain..
    He is NOT responsible for war. Marines would have silently executed Ace.. But instead, they cared less and declared war against WB.. There are consequences of angering the worlds most strongest man.. All that happened later on is history..

    The person responsible for Ace's death is Akainu. What did you expect BB to do when Ace kept tailing him? Surrender and offer his head? If you recollect, BB never even wanted to capture Ace.. All he wanted was a 100+ mil bounty head to seal his position on Schibukai. He intended to take Luffy. But Ace found BB first.. So stop blaming BB for everything.

    And about Luffy's situation. This was supposed to be WB Vs. Marines n Schibukai.. Luffy was not even supposed to be a part of this struggle. How can you even bring up Luffy's issue here?

    Killing crewmate is bad, I totally buy that. But is that the reason to brand someone a major villain? When Shanks' crew member shot a bandit (Anime episode 4) in point blank, what was that? A noble thing? Remember what Shanks' pirates say about the war between pirates? Nothing is fair.
    Last edited by karthikmurs; March 20, 2010 at 07:59 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member NoLimit89's Avatar
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    Re: IS Blackbeard really a villain?

    Yea, couldn't agree with you more. I mean Luffy looks up to Roger and we know how he decimated both Squardo's crew and half of Shiki's crew.

    Also, how many marine fodders have the strawhat pirates killed? Remember Ennies Lobby? The one thing that's great about One Piece is that there's no clear and boring dichotomy of good and evil.

    However, backstabbing a friend and killing your "father" does constitute him as a villain though. Personally, I find Akainu to be a more hateable villain than BB but hey, that's just me.
    Last edited by NoLimit89; March 20, 2010 at 09:06 PM.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member RichardMNixon's Avatar
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    Re: IS Blackbeard really a villain?

    He's not some kind of bloodthirsty slaughterer, but not all villains have to be. He's just totally amoral, he doesn't give a damn about anyone or have any respect for human life. He takes what he wants and kills anyone in his way, which is just what happened to Thatch.
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    Re: IS Blackbeard really a villain?

    Quote Originally Posted by karthikmurs View Post
    If we see how Blackbeard has acted till now.

    1. He killed a crewmate on WB ship.

    First off, let me put a light note that this is not a rule for "every" pirate. It most certainly was an Iron clad rule on WB's ship. But AFAIK, its not a Golden rule among pirates or anything. Blackbeard openly said that he was on WB's ship solely for the purpose of finding the Devil Fruit. This shows he was cunning and that he was a schemer. But evil? Not here..
    As far a crew cohesion, and overall morale crew members offing each other is bad news. Also in a manga exemplifying the spirit of "nakama" it's as bad as it gets. This makes him a bad guy.. but to what degree is subjective..

    Quote Originally Posted by karthikmurs View Post
    2. Captured Ace and handed him over to Marines .

    Again, this cannot be deemed as an evil act. He was again covering his ass and he anyways wanted a guy with a bounty of over 100mil. Ace was not a bad bargain, yes?
    Remember on Banaro when Ace and BB faced off. BB says "Ace your fire, I'm Darkness" and claims he has the evilest of all fruits...
    But indeed your right, Capturing Ace.. especially alive shows he's not a monster but a calculating bastard.

    Quote Originally Posted by karthikmurs View Post
    He still referred to Ace as captain. He openly said he aspired to become like WB. Many things which people wouldn't normally do.. Imagine Arlong or Don Kreig or Kuro or any low life pirates having this kind of power.. I can bet they wouldn't be even half humble as BB was..
    Again, back on Banaro Ace said to BB "Capt'n" isn't a term to be used disrespectfully. BB knew the psychological advantage using the term towards Ace would provide... so he said it.

    He was respectful to Nami (in a way) and showed that he had the dreamers heart of a pirate, it's just now we realize he'd kill his own "father" to achieve said dreams..

    They are North and South poles exactly..
    IMO BB can be a villain and not be Doflamingo psychopathic or Akainu Sociopathic..
    Last edited by Poneglyph420; March 21, 2010 at 01:09 PM.


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    Re: IS Blackbeard really a villain?

    You know why it's a villain? Because He's the final/pre-final opponent of our hero. Period.
    The Sky is pouring
    The wind is blowing
    The sea looks red,
    a surging sea of flames
    looks like the entrance to hell
    'Perfect', the captain said.

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    Re: IS Blackbeard really a villain?

    Just as Uriel said, he is the one harming the main hero and as such he is the villain of the Manga. You have to stop thinking as a human reading the Manga, but put youself in Luffy's shoes. In hell he will be no villain anymore. Aside from that he is clearly going against Luffy's principle and act's like all the villains he met before. Don't want to list them, I hope you have read One Piece well enough yourself.
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    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member karthikmurs's Avatar
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    Re: IS Blackbeard really a villain?

    Quote Originally Posted by RichardMNixon View Post
    He's not some kind of bloodthirsty slaughterer, but not all villains have to be.
    Interesting point. I like that. Then again, I again quote the words of Shanks' crew (Wait.. I am not sure if this was in the manga.. But surely, it was in the anime.. I opine that Oda works closely with the anime team and hence, I can quote that here, in discussions). Its not a holy war.. In any other context, in any other manga series (Naruto fir instance), I'd definitely say he is a villain. But not in One Piece, at least to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by RichardMNixon View Post
    He's just totally amoral, he doesn't give a damn about anyone or have any respect for human life. He takes what he wants and kills anyone in his way, which is just what happened to Thatch.
    No respect for human life, how many times have we seen that? Just how many? I don't even wanna begin counting.. A quick remembrance, remember how hawkins used 10 decoys to save his life? That isn't just enough to call him a villain IMO even though he showed no compassion towards human life..


    Quote Originally Posted by LordUriel View Post
    You know why it's a villain? Because He's the final/pre-final opponent of our hero. Period.
    Do you honestly believe it would be a one on one showdown? There are so many characters in One piece that its impossible to tell if there would be a showdown.. It will be at least a triple tie, IMO.


    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    You have to stop thinking as a human reading the Manga, but put youself in Luffy's shoes.
    Oh man, I am not.. I am thinking as a "pirate", If I were thinking on humane grounds, I'd straight away deem him a villain. He is the dictionary definition of a pirate.. He is not Oda's favorite character for nothing. I am sure, the more we get to know about BB, our opinion will be subjected to a cliff hanger..

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    Aside from that he is clearly going against Luffy's principle and act's like all the villains he met before. Don't want to list them, I hope you have read One Piece well enough yourself.
    Lets not assume anyone who doesn't align himself with luffy's principle is a bad guy. No doubt, Luffy's character is the best in the series.. But still, One piece is a character based manga as opposed to plot based.. So lets have an open mind for time being..

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    Don't want to list them, I hope you have read One Piece well enough yourself.
    Wait.. Remember the tenrubito Auction mall incident?? It is clear that Tenryubito are not honorable. But then again, would you call anyone who pits against them as a noble person? Kid for instance, spoke like an anti-satan when he opined about Tenryubito.. So now,

    Instead of comparing Luffy, compare Kuro or Arlong's mentality with BB's. If you don't see a huge difference, I am sorry. To me, the difference is just Oozing out..


    Quote Originally Posted by Poneglyph420 View Post
    He was respectful to Nami (in a way) and showed that he had the dreamers heart of a pirate, it's just now we realize he'd kill his own "father" to achieve said dreams..
    True. But, I am not sure if Blackbeard considered him a "father" although WB considered him a "son". He said he was on WB's ship just so that he knew he had more chances of running into the devil fruit he wished for long.
    Last edited by karthikmurs; March 21, 2010 at 10:27 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

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    MH Senpai MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Uriel's Avatar
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    Re: IS Blackbeard really a villain?

    Quote Originally Posted by karthikmurs View Post
    Do you honestly believe it would be a one on one showdown? There are so many characters in One piece that its impossible to tell if there would be a showdown.. It will be at least a triple tie, IMO.
    Did I ever said that? Nope. And believe me, those two WILL fight.

    Doesn't change my point anyway. If you read what a villain is by definition, it's always as opposed to the hero by making troubles and obstacles to overcome. In this case, just wanting be a PK like Luffy makes him a Villain sorta. With all the plus you mention on the opening post.

    I'm not talking to define it as a person and judge it by any other term than literally, which in the end is the only way to judge a character from a fictional work.
    The Sky is pouring
    The wind is blowing
    The sea looks red,
    a surging sea of flames
    looks like the entrance to hell
    'Perfect', the captain said.

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    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member karthikmurs's Avatar
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    Re: IS Blackbeard really a villain?

    Quote Originally Posted by LordUriel View Post
    Did I ever said that? Nope. And believe me, those two WILL fight.
    Well, I meant it won't or rather, need not be the final/pre final (and this is what I meant when I said showdown). And I expect there to be a deadlock kinda situation and luffy will have to face off multiple enemies multiple times to get to Raftel, so we cannot really tell which fight paved way for him to get there.. A final fight ought to be that, which I feel is not gonna happen.. And hell yeah, Luffy and BB are gonna fight..


    Quote Originally Posted by LordUriel View Post
    If you read what a villain is by definition, it's always as opposed to the hero by making troubles and obstacles to overcome.
    My idea of a "villain" in specific to One piece is different. Its just me, probably.

    Quote Originally Posted by LordUriel View Post
    I'm not talking to define it as a person and judge it by any other term than literally, which in the end is the only way to judge a character from a fictional work.
    True.. And that's why we all have different opinions.. Its basically how we interpret events..

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: IS Blackbeard really a villain?

    He's a twisted version of the hero. He's not beyond taking heroic actions or attitudes, but ultimately he's too dark at heart to be anything other than a villain.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Poneglyph420's Avatar
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    Re: IS Blackbeard really a villain?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrath View Post
    He's a twisted version of the hero. He's not beyond taking heroic actions or attitudes, but ultimately he's too dark at heart to be anything other than a villain.
    There's a term for that: Anti Hero. And while it's usually applied to a protagonist, it (rarely) can apply to a compassionate antagonist. BB at first really seemed like he'd be an anti hero... however since ID he's marked himself with his dastardly deeds. He's for sure a chaotic, plotting criminal.

    Here's an quote from "tips for writers"
    "This is a brilliant observation that has served me well in all my writing. (The bad guy isn't doing bad stuff so he can rub his hands together and snarl.) He may be driven by greed, neuroses, or the conviction that his cause is just, but he's driven by something not unlike the things that drive a hero."

    BB is seeming to fit into the context of this quote well IMO.


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    MH Senpai MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Uriel's Avatar
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    Re: IS Blackbeard really a villain?

    I think Poneglyph defined better. Blackbeard is an Anti-Hero. Fits perfectly with the stereotype D:

    It's a subjective matter, however. It's the villain for most readers because they already picked a side and a point of view. Unless that point of view (Usually defined by the main character, in this case, Luffy) changes in the history, it will be hard to not define it as villain.

    I know what you try to do, but you just have to deal with the main fact: As long as Luffy has a grudge against Blackbeard, He WILL be a villain.
    The Sky is pouring
    The wind is blowing
    The sea looks red,
    a surging sea of flames
    looks like the entrance to hell
    'Perfect', the captain said.

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    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member karthikmurs's Avatar
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    Re: IS Blackbeard really a villain?

    Quote Originally Posted by LordUriel View Post
    I know what you try to do, but you just have to deal with the main fact: As long as Luffy has a grudge against Blackbeard, He WILL be a villain.
    True. Poneglyph put across the point very well. And as to what you said, I agree on that as well. But personally to me, BB is one helluva pirate. Evil, I definitely agree. A great and formidable rival to Luffy, damn right. But there is a hell lot of difference between the concept of a "villain" in One Piece and the dictionary definition..

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member BetaRuler's Avatar
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    Re: IS Blackbeard really a villain?

    I think he's quite evil.

    1 - Declaring the new age his age was practically a threat to the whole world
    2 - Intending to sink Marineford, the symbol of peace and justice that many civilians rely to protect them.
    3 - Destroying countless peoples homes back on Banaro island

    True, I don't think his mentality is as evil as Arlongs say, and Kuro (just as evil as Crocodile) was pretty cold, but BB is definately villainous.

    The only thing that gets me, is IF BB had taken Luffy in, how would the rest of this plan of his have worked? As different as a Revolutionary army vs Marineford scenario could have looked...
    So I said this with a belief that my opinion actually mattered at least by 1 iota!

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Franckie's Avatar
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    Re: IS Blackbeard really a villain?

    Quote Originally Posted by karthikmurs View Post
    He is NOT responsible for war. Marines would have silently executed Ace.. But instead, they cared less and declared war against WB.. There are consequences of angering the worlds most strongest man.. All that happened later on is history..

    The person responsible for Ace's death is Akainu. What did you expect BB to do when Ace kept tailing him? Surrender and offer his head? If you recollect, BB never even wanted to capture Ace.. All he wanted was a 100+ mil bounty head to seal his position on Schibukai. He intended to take Luffy. But Ace found BB first.. So stop blaming BB for everything.
    Akainu dealt the final blow to Ace, but BB was carefully set up as the guy to blame, through the Amazon Lily and Impel Down arcs. BB also antagonized Luffy about Ace when Luffy was in no position to pick a fight, making BB the only person Luffy holds a grudge against.

    Ace's death is what separates BB from other rivals such (Law, Kid). This trait also causes BB to be the only person in this series who is both a villain and a rival, singling BB out as the most important antagonist right now.

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