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Thread: The Effect of Massive Reiatsu

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
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    The Effect of Massive Reiatsu

    As the title states, I'm interested in what you all think about the effect of having massive reiatsu.

    A large difference in reiatsu so far has been able to make the weaker fighter look like a pushover. Example: Kenpachi vs. Ichigo, Kenpachi let Ichigo have a few free swings at his chest, yet he couldn't even make a scratch, why? With such a difference in reiatsu, the zanpakutou seems dull.

    Here are the things that are attributed to simple reiatsu difference that I can think of on the top of my head:
    -Dulling the enemy's sword, as Kenpachi and Grimmjow did vs. Ichigo
    -Exerting pressure on the enemy, as Kenpachid did to that 4th squad guy in SS
    -Freezing the enemy with a glance (Aizen)
    -Redirecting Chad's energy punches (Shunsui)
    -Redirecting Ceros (Ukitake)
    -Redirecting reiatsu based zanpakutou attack (Ulquiorra v. Urahara)

    My question is, can simple difference in reiatsu stop these kinds of attacks?
    -Yumichika's reiatsu draining
    -Kira's weight doubling
    -Zommari's Amor
    -Syazel's organ voodoo doll
    -Tousen's bankai (like, if Aizen was trapped in it, would Aizen be able to see or sense?)
    -Barragan's Respira


    Attacks like those, ones that seem too godly, could those be countered simply with difference in reiatsu? I mean, I think so, I can't imagine Aizen or Yama being controlled by Zommari, nor Syazel crushing their organs.

    WHat do you all think about it?
    Current Theories/Beliefs for Bleach:
    -Barragan and Halibel arn't goners yet-Confirmed
    -Ukitake has an absorb and redirect type shikai (think baby nel vs. Dardonii's cero)-Confirmed
    -The VL army/group that Aizen supposedly has doesn't exist-Pending/Waiting for confirmation on Wonderweiss
    -The Vizards have ulterior motives, by ulterior I mean they arn't just going to be goody-two-shoes and help out the SS that betrayed them just to get back at Aizen-Pending

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    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: The Effect of Massive Reiatsu

    I would think zampakuto powers which are based exclusively on abilities and not on melee combat would not be hindered by the enemies absurd amounts of reiatsu... Of course there could be limitations...

    For instance with yumichikai. Say he tries to absorb kempachi's reiatsu. Possible outcomes:
    -Kempachi is drained
    -Yumuchika simply does not have the power to hold kempachi back because of his sheer raw power so he cannot absorb his reiatsu in time.
    -Yumuchika's zamapakuto explodes because it absorbed way too much reiatsu.
    -Kempachi's reiatsu is so strong the sword cannot even wrap around the guy.
    -Kempachi is too fast for the yumi's zampakuto.

    There could be similar stuff going on with other ability type swords. Still, I do not know about the rest, it could go in many ways. I would think it depends on how fast the enemy goes for the kill and the difference in power. In bleach the dudes usually go straight for the kill and move on from there. We also do not know what limitation exactly there are on each ability....

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    Re: The Effect of Massive Reiatsu

    Elemental users apparently tend to give an 'aura' not unlike that of their element with their reiatsu, especially when tripping on power/resolve, least in the case of Rukia and Hitsugaya's Ice. Hitsugaya obviously had the whole bit with his grandma getting frozen over due to his lack of control over his power, and in the fight with #9, Rukia started freezing the thing's spear with her bare hand before using the third dance. And well... Yamamoto's freaking Yamamoto.

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    Re: The Effect of Massive Reiatsu

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    I would think zampakuto powers which are based exclusively on abilities and not on melee combat would not be hindered by the enemies absurd amounts of reiatsu... Of course there could be limitations...

    For instance with yumichikai. Say he tries to absorb kempachi's reiatsu. Possible outcomes:
    -Kempachi is drained
    -Yumuchika simply does not have the power to hold kempachi back because of his sheer raw power so he cannot absorb his reiatsu in time.
    -Yumuchika's zamapakuto explodes because it absorbed way too much reiatsu.
    -Kempachi's reiatsu is so strong the sword cannot even wrap around the guy.
    -Kempachi is too fast for the yumi's zampakuto.

    There could be similar stuff going on with other ability type swords. Still, I do not know about the rest, it could go in many ways. I would think it depends on how fast the enemy goes for the kill and the difference in power. In bleach the dudes usually go straight for the kill and move on from there. We also do not know what limitation exactly there are on each ability....
    Spoiler show


    Cry benihime is an attack that's not physical from a zanpakutou. Yet Ulquiorra just swipes it away with his bare hand.
    Spoiler show


    Getsuga Tenshou is also a non-melee zanpakutou based attack, and althoguh Grimmjow is injured, its nothing major at all.

    Anyways, I agree with your possibilities for Kenpachi vs. Yumi's reiatsu draining shikai.
    Current Theories/Beliefs for Bleach:
    -Barragan and Halibel arn't goners yet-Confirmed
    -Ukitake has an absorb and redirect type shikai (think baby nel vs. Dardonii's cero)-Confirmed
    -The VL army/group that Aizen supposedly has doesn't exist-Pending/Waiting for confirmation on Wonderweiss
    -The Vizards have ulterior motives, by ulterior I mean they arn't just going to be goody-two-shoes and help out the SS that betrayed them just to get back at Aizen-Pending

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    Re: The Effect of Massive Reiatsu

    Possible scenarios:

    Quote Originally Posted by Eddy01741 View Post
    -Yumichika's reiatsu draining
    Yumichika attempts to drain Kenpachi of spiritual energy but since Kenpachi has immense spiritual energy, he breaks the bind before Yumichika can considerably weaken him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eddy01741 View Post
    -Kira's weight doubling
    Kira can double the weight of anybody's zanpakutou but powerful opponents can finish him without clashing their swords.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eddy01741 View Post
    -Zommari's Amor
    Probably an opponent with enough reiatsu and willpower can defend himself against the ill effects of amor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eddy01741 View Post
    -Syazel's organ voodoo doll
    Szayel can never grab a powerful opponent and make a voodoo doll of him but if he somehow manages to make a doll, he can damage his opponent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eddy01741 View Post
    -Tousen's bankai (like, if Aizen was trapped in it, would Aizen be able to see or sense?)
    Aizen can't see or sense anything in Tousen's bankai but he destroys Tousen's bankai dome with a high level hadou.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eddy01741 View Post
    -Barragan's Respira
    Barragan's respira can rot anyone/anything it touches but strong opponents can avoid his respira attacks and finish him by long-range attacks.

    Quote Quote:
    -Hachigen's Barriers
    If the opponent is fast enough, Hachigen can never trap him in a barrier and even if he does, the opponent can destroy the barrier with a powerful attack.

    Quote Quote:
    -Aizen's Illusions
    Use Mind's Eye or make an area attack to detect/damage Aizen wherever he is. Try not to lose sight of him, he likes to use his abilities when he disappears for a moment like during an explosion. The Aizen coming out of the smoke is probably a fake.

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    Re: The Effect of Massive Reiatsu

    I think that's possible. we have to remember that these are spirit being fighting
    in a spirit realm. so all there attacks, kido or melee are reishi based. so I imagine
    that even special abilities can be impeded by large sources of reiatsu. but perhaps
    how you control that reiatsu also matters. but I think it would be far more difficult
    to stop kido by sheer reiatsu difference. This is because the ways of attacking aren't
    straightforward like a sword attack. in a sword attack the guy with the large reiatsu
    can concentrate on one area. where as kido has numerous ways of attacking and it's not as straightforward as concentrating on one sword contact.

    but again all these attacks are relative to the user. Aizen using twin lotus canon
    isn't the same as Rukia using it.

    *Predictions:*
    |Ulquiorra was the only VL under Aizen|
    |Aizen is not the last villain in Bleach|
    |Use the espada sig and Credit Geoff|

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    Hound of Shadow 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member benelori's Avatar
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    Re: The Effect of Massive Reiatsu

    Massive reiatsu is just massive reiatsu, nothing more. One need control and focus to use it correctly. Also massive reiatsu lets somebody to add power to their respective ability. In kenpachi's case we know that when his focused and is anxious to fight, his reiatsu sharpenes so he can cut better. So even he can exert some control, which is his benefit. So control is everything. But of course U won't survive having little reiatsu

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    Re: The Effect of Massive Reiatsu

    You clearly misunderstood the topic I'm trying to get at in this discussion.

    According to you, Ichigo should have ripped open Kenpachi's chest on his first attack, as according to you, massive reiatsu is just massive reiatsu.

    And also, Kenpachi has more or less no control over his reiatsu, it's as Ishida explained with the faucet analogy when Ichigo killed the menos back in karakura. Most shinigami can turn on or off the faucet representing their reiatsu at will, but Ichigo (at the time) could not, for him, the faucet was on 24/7 (explaining how he awoke the powers of his friends). THat's the same essentially for Kenpachi. That's the sole reason he has that eyepatch. Since he can't control his reiatsu enough, he has his eyepatch eat it up so he can fight at a lower level, thus elongating the battle, making him enjoy it more.

    Kenpachi is a perfect example of how someone can be absurdly powerful with little or no chakra control.
    Current Theories/Beliefs for Bleach:
    -Barragan and Halibel arn't goners yet-Confirmed
    -Ukitake has an absorb and redirect type shikai (think baby nel vs. Dardonii's cero)-Confirmed
    -The VL army/group that Aizen supposedly has doesn't exist-Pending/Waiting for confirmation on Wonderweiss
    -The Vizards have ulterior motives, by ulterior I mean they arn't just going to be goody-two-shoes and help out the SS that betrayed them just to get back at Aizen-Pending

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    Hound of Shadow 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member benelori's Avatar
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    Re: The Effect of Massive Reiatsu

    Quote Originally Posted by Eddy01741 View Post
    You clearly misunderstood the topic I'm trying to get at in this discussion.

    According to you, Ichigo should have ripped open Kenpachi's chest on his first attack, as according to you, massive reiatsu is just massive reiatsu.

    And also, Kenpachi has more or less no control over his reiatsu, it's as Ishida explained with the faucet analogy when Ichigo killed the menos back in karakura. Most shinigami can turn on or off the faucet representing their reiatsu at will, but Ichigo (at the time) could not, for him, the faucet was on 24/7 (explaining how he awoke the powers of his friends). THat's the same essentially for Kenpachi. That's the sole reason he has that eyepatch. Since he can't control his reiatsu enough, he has his eyepatch eat it up so he can fight at a lower level, thus elongating the battle, making him enjoy it more.

    Kenpachi is a perfect example of how someone can be absurdly powerful with little or no chakra control.
    Well not really, becuz ichigo wasn't able to control his reiatsu,so at first cut he hurt himself.Then he as kenpachi said sharpened his reiatsu which i think is control and was able to cut kenpachi. It's not control like 90+ kido, but it is something...
    Also I probably mistook the topic, but here U are arguing with me, without telling me what is the topic really about...
    Anyway IMO only yumichika's ability can be countered, or is not enough against huge reiatsu. Becuz it's like starrk said there must be a limit for absorbing.
    Last edited by benelori; August 31, 2009 at 10:04 AM.

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    Re: The Effect of Massive Reiatsu

    No, the topic is obvious, it is clearly defined in my first post.

    Ichigo was not able to cut Kenpachi because their difference in reiatsu was so great (at the beginning). Kenpachi's reiatsu was that much greater, that it in effect dulled the blade of Zangetsu.

    The same happened with Ichigo and Grimmjow in their first encounter.



    Now, just to be blatantly redundant just to define what I'm trying to get at, I'm trying to discuss Kubo's plotkai excuse for certain fights, that excuse being, the difference in reiatsu. And as such, I have shown examples of a shinigami(or arrancar) body taking attacks without any conventional defense, yet shrugging it off like it never happened. FOr example, Grimmjow took a black GT, and what happens, he gets burned? Do you remember what happened to Byakuya when he took a black GT? He got a huge slash down his chest, and was bleeding badly.

    THis discussion is about what the "difference in reiatsu" can mean in a battle, as it's pretty much been Kubo's counter to hax abilities.
    Current Theories/Beliefs for Bleach:
    -Barragan and Halibel arn't goners yet-Confirmed
    -Ukitake has an absorb and redirect type shikai (think baby nel vs. Dardonii's cero)-Confirmed
    -The VL army/group that Aizen supposedly has doesn't exist-Pending/Waiting for confirmation on Wonderweiss
    -The Vizards have ulterior motives, by ulterior I mean they arn't just going to be goody-two-shoes and help out the SS that betrayed them just to get back at Aizen-Pending

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    Hound of Shadow 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member benelori's Avatar
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    Re: The Effect of Massive Reiatsu

    Quote Originally Posted by Eddy01741 View Post
    No, the topic is obvious, it is clearly defined in my first post.

    Ichigo was not able to cut Kenpachi because their difference in reiatsu was so great (at the beginning). Kenpachi's reiatsu was that much greater, that it in effect dulled the blade of Zangetsu.

    The same happened with Ichigo and Grimmjow in their first encounter.


    Now, just to be blatantly redundant just to define what I'm trying to get at, I'm trying to discuss Kubo's plotkai excuse for certain fights, that excuse being, the difference in reiatsu. And as such, I have shown examples of a shinigami(or arrancar) body taking attacks without any conventional defense, yet shrugging it off like it never happened. FOr example, Grimmjow took a black GT, and what happens, he gets burned? Do you remember what happened to Byakuya when he took a black GT? He got a huge slash down his chest, and was bleeding badly.

    THis discussion is about what the "difference in reiatsu" can mean in a battle, as it's pretty much been Kubo's counter to hax abilities.
    The difference in reiatsu is just difference in reiatsu. There is the term reiryoku which means the strength or density of the reiatsu i think makes the difference. Ichigo fought par on par with kenpachi when he decided to fight together with zangetsu, fact that needed control to achieve. The rising of the reiatsu is just a consequence. Reiatsu actually sharpened kenpachi's blade when he fought nnoitra, so dulling zangetsu's blade was ichigo's fault
    Also grimmjow had hierro which means skin stuffed with reiatsu, which is very dense and acts like an armor. So density again is the key here.
    Many other characters noted that a reiatsu was very heavy. In order to have something like that U must have great amount of reiatsu as well. So IMO these things are strongly related, one cannot be without another.

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    Re: The Effect of Massive Reiatsu

    Sorry to revive (hell, not that it matters since a mod/admin would merge closely-related threads regardless as I'm sure we've all seen), but I was browsing through the biblioteca for interesting stuff and I just felt the urge to comment on this matter.

    But the case of Aizen simply being unharmed by Soi Fon is what I mean here. For somebody to have so much reiatsu that an opponent's ability (overpowered or not) is simply useless.

    And as a much belated reply to benelori.

    No, ichigo's blade was not dulled by himself, it was explicitly stated that their difference in reiatsu was why Kenpachi could not even be scratched:

    Spoiler show



    As for the matter of hierro, it just seems like Kubo's excuse to use the "difference in reiatsu" argument for battles more often (IE, your reiatsu is not high enough compared to mine, thus I am impervious to your attacks).
    Current Theories/Beliefs for Bleach:
    -Barragan and Halibel arn't goners yet-Confirmed
    -Ukitake has an absorb and redirect type shikai (think baby nel vs. Dardonii's cero)-Confirmed
    -The VL army/group that Aizen supposedly has doesn't exist-Pending/Waiting for confirmation on Wonderweiss
    -The Vizards have ulterior motives, by ulterior I mean they arn't just going to be goody-two-shoes and help out the SS that betrayed them just to get back at Aizen-Pending

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    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: The Effect of Massive Reiatsu

    I think hierro takes things just a step further than what kempachi did. Hierro concentrates reiatsu in the skin so besides having comparable reiatsu to the guy you are fighting you need the skill to penetrate a technique which specifically concentrates it to protect himself.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member niblack89's Avatar
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    Re: The Effect of Massive Reiatsu

    What I don't get is how someone like Ichigo with twice or more power of a captian has problems cutting through the skin on ulquiorra. Hell not even Ulquiorra but yammi. that should have knocked his head off even if he isn't at 100% it was stated he had around a captain's Reiatsu along with his mask should have done more than that, especially if getsuga Tenshio increases the attack strike and range and black getsuga does more damage.

    But kenpatchi cut him like it was easy. If both Ichigo and Kenpachi have around the same reiatsu control and Ichigo is stronger than why aren't Ichigo's cut as be as powerful as Kenny.

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    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: The Effect of Massive Reiatsu

    The problem IMHO is that ichigo can't control his reiatsu at any adequate level which results in him rarely being able to use his max power.

    As for kempachi, given the nnoitora fight I would also think he can't use his full power at key times. He started being unable to cut nnoitora but he eventually sharpened his reiatsu and in the end he was capable of trashing him in his resurreccion form.

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