So I'm assuming that there was in fact a time in which you released publicly your raws, the moment you got them, so as to let all the scanlators have the same time as you have to clean the pages and hence avoid publishing poor quality works. I was just saying that I thought that if a decent quality RAW were to be released a couple of hours before the English groups release their final versions, then we might see more original versions instead of only ones using the English groups' scans. Plus, your policy not only does it deter people from cleaning RAWs, but it also stimulates the using of the English groups' scans.Quote:
As a side-note, would you mind taking a look at this version of ours and telling me what we would need to improve to stop it from being considered a low quality job and thus you could consider us as a group to share your raws with?
Ok, so you are basically saying that all Scanlators are free to take Blinktopia's work without crediting, even though the credit page states something else, until they are personally approached by anyone from Blinktopia asking them to cease.Quote:
The English groups also get benefited. Take me, for example. Years ago I used to read manga in Spanish, but then discovered that they just edited the balloons and translated it, so I switched over to reading the manga in English. Hence, you get more viewers. And I am sure that I'm not the only person that has done this, because I've got several friends whose situation is similar. Sure, that's why I'm in favor of crediting the English groups that were used to make the International Scanlation.Quote:
I'm sorry, but copyright law does in fact protect against translations. You surely can't translate something without permission legally according to the Berne Convention for the Protection of Literary and Artistic Works, which the USA is a part of. I guess you need to read a bit more on the issue... and suggest you read that International Convention. I might be wrong, if a later Convention was made in which the parties agreed that works aren't protected against translation, but I'm almost sure that that is not the case. No copyright arises out of works done illegally, as far as I know... Hence, the translator can not claim any rights, and you are in fact violating copyright law by posting it.Quote:
@darkend you are completly right, but i don't know why you need to spin a dagger in their wound over and over again.
Now to the topic:
Thank you very much for announcing this, i let you know i didn't break any of your rules and thank you for telling me this i have completly read it and i am happy.
Have a nice day and thank you once again! Thank you!
I think no one is completely wrong and no one is completely right, luckyly we all are able to see the multiple sides of the matter.
Personally I think that like many have said it isn't really such a complicated request the scanlation groups are making. If that's what they need so desperately to be happy, well, let's give them their precious credit and everybody is happy.
In the end, if any group "forbids" the use of their raws, is as simple as not releasing them here in MH and problem solved, what is right and what is wrong is a matter of opinion and always will be that way. To smoke marihuana is illegal in my country, all I have to do is move to another country where this is legal and that's it, or to stop consuming it where it is not legal if I don't want any troubles. ('cause I love my country, and I really like MH*)
Although what you may think, I did not smoke marihuana before I wrote this post xD
*MH is for MangaHelpers xD maybe I should have used another example.
Last edited by Gama; August 31, 2009 at 09:48 PM.
Actually I found this getting more amusing. I'm going to line out these things again in points, and this is what the issue is all about:
1. If you think the groups are a curse, so do you. Why would you being here reading manga if you're so ethical. Remove yourself from the equation before talking. So I was wrong saying that people like to talk but are doing the things they are talking against? I don't think so.
2. Walk the talk. Don't just say this is wrong and should be like this, or just saying I would do like this and that. Show some credibility in your words.
3. Credits are needed when they're due. Period. It has always been like that, and always been like that. Yes, it's only a courtesy and there are many outside MH who didn't do that, but this is MH, why talk about other sites?
These are the same rules since the beginning, heck, even before MH is around. Don't see where this issue of not having previously. This is a reminder, not an announcement of new rules.
4. This thread is not for discussing if the groups are wrong or not. Go debate it with them if you have to. This thread is for telling you to follow the groups' wishes. This wasn't a problem until today, just some people who can't even buy their own manga trying to make rules bend to their favor.
5. Scanlation theft is not allowed. Perfect or not, that what holds the people together for many years. Dislike it? Go get the RAWs yourself, buy it, order it online. There's no excuse about it. Heh, saying that the group is a curse because they don't share, at least they bought a copy, they pay for at least a copy, while you took the easy way using something free and complain. If you really love the manga, buy it.
Aren't you just being selfish too? You can't get what you want, so you cry about it. As I said, if you want something, buy it yourself. Online purchase is global, they send the manga right to your door. There's no excuse about you don't have manga at your place. I don't have many selection at my place too, I order my manga right from Japan with ridiculous markup on shipping fee. I don't complain at all, that's the only way I can get my manga.
Now please go back on topic. This thread is about people crediting others, not about your hypocrisy talking about copyrights while you yourself read the manga online. Thank you.
With that said, let me say something...
There is a need to have order in scanlation world. The scanlation world, will sooner or later change. Everything will have to move on. The first phase of this is to have an order, a set of rules to contain certain aspects. What changes, I don't know myself. But the scene has been changing these fast few years. For the people who have been following manga since at least 7 years ago would notice this.
The publishers are starting to use the online models. Sooner or later, manga will be given by them instead of scanlation (online). If there's no order like not prohibiting people from rampantly doing things, then when it comes to that time, then there'll be no helping it. This set of rules on MH were made years ago, with the publishers in mind, although not as much as today.
One of the aim was to contain manga in a limited spread (in terms of where you can get it), so when the time comes to purge the scanlation of the said manga, it can be done easily. Well, it probably can't be done fully, but that's no excuse for not doing it. If everyone thinks that there's no use doing it because other places are not affected, then there might as well better not having the rules. No, I don't think so.
Take a look around you and tell me, how many of you read IKKI? I don't think that many at all. Maybe the titles are not that interesting or lack of knowledge about it. Take a look at this if you don't know what it is:
Tell me what is the agenda of the publishers here.
Last edited by bax; August 31, 2009 at 10:38 PM.
2. Actually, the parallelism you made is an illogical one considering scanlators (or Binktopia in this case), don't take credit for creating Naruto...we very much do credit the mangakas.
Bottom line is, I don't see why you would disrespect the wishes of scanlators/translators when it will ultimately do more harm than good.
By english scanlation groups? It's a nonsense...Quote:
I said it, I repeat it, and I'll always do!
It would be better then reading costant whinings about this absurd copyright issue over scanlations. Anyway it isn't most/all groups: most groups don't even care about what is done to their scanlation, as long as proper credit is given to them.Quote:
No the reasons because of I'm so firm in supporting my idea are already explained in my previous post and I'm not going to repeat myself.Quote:
You violate the copyright of authors and editors: did you get authorized to translate their work? Did you compensate them for this authorization? I don't think so, so you're making a copyright infringment. Any scanlator makes copyright infringment for the very nature of what he does.
Scanlators should do their work for the sake of the community, to spread manga culture among the masses. These copyright infringment whinings are pure nonsense, as I've already stated. Scanlators who think this way are a curse to the scanlation world, which should be based on free circulation of manga evreywhere in the world.Quote:
Totally wrong metaphore dude!Quote:
Manga and anime are culture, so spreading them contribute to improve the general culture of the masses, in their own way. HIV brings death, so its spreading is only a negative factor for the masses.
Now even you start with personal attacks?Quote:
It's the second translator in this thread doing so: ahah well it's a given I guess because my points cannot be easily argued with. So the easiest way to deal with them is trying to decrease the value of the one who has such irritating POV: thanks, it confirms my points are valid!
I have my ideas and I support them, no matter what. Anyway I don't think to have made an ass out of myself: the only ones who attacked me heavily are translators, while more than one user agreed with me. That's expected.Quote:
I explained the reasons, if you didn't read them or didn't satisfy you then it's your problem...Quote:
Dude do you know the difference about stating one's own opinion and respecting the rules? The fact I don't support ONE rule doesn't mean I don't like Mangahelpers in general...Quote:
Following this way of reasoning a President can be criticized only by another President, because common citizens cannot understand what being a President is.Quote:
Well it was a good chance to state my opinion.Quote:
Anyway what about using some Creative Commons licence? It would be better than the current "the translation is only mine! only mine!!! I'm jeaulus of it! Don't you dare using it!!!" nonsense...
I only said restrictions over scanations are wrong IMHO: it doesn't mean groups are wrong or not. They can do whatever they like, MH can use the policies which likes, but I think I'm free to write my opinion about it. Am I wrong?Quote:
If you put the situation in these terms then groups payed for ONE copy, not for the right to translate it and distribute it to tens of thousands of other individuals...Quote:
Yeah I take myself out of this thread, because I think to have stated my POV quite exstensively and others have done the same. Too bad for personal attacks someone made to me, but I guess it cannot be helped when the points are good and cannot be argued with easily.Quote:
I thought I'd just point out something that seems to be missing (I could be mistaken): crediting the mangaka. I've read many an English scan that doesn't translate the mangaka's name and sometimes there won't even be a name in Japanese. If the English groups care so much about foreign groups not giving them credit (there's nothing wrong with asking for that), the least they could do is acknowledge the original creator(s).
Constant whining? I don't know what other forums you frequent, but debates like this are rather seldom. In fact, it's probably the first time I take part in one. Oh, and again the leecher knows best what most groups want.Quote:
You didn't do anything to begin with. Do you even realize what you are complaining about here?Quote:
Again you, a leecher, is trying to tell me what to do, and even the reasons I have to have. I'm doing it for my personal enjoyment, for the work itself, using photoshop and working with a team, that's fun for me. Not really for the "sake of the community", it's just a positive side-effect. You, a talking leecher, are a curse to the scanlation world.Quote:
It's a valid metaphor. We were talking about stolen scanlations, and those aren't a "positive factor". Obviously Asce was exaggerating to make fun of you.Quote:
You're so easily offended... oh boy. Oh and, really? (v4)Quote:
Oh yeah, they are totally a curse, taking their time and money, buying raws and scanlating. Shame on them.Quote:
He can be critizised by anyone, but if it's a nobody, just like you, it's also taken as that. Actually, presidents are being crizised by ~49% of the population quite easily (those who voted for the other candidate), and later by even more %, since they have to take unpopular decisions for the sake of the communityQuote:
This is so utterly retarded. You are saying it's okay to disrespect the translators wishes and say, if a translator states: this is my property, I reserve it for my group, and then another group can come and take his trans and just release? MH would become a really lonely place pretty fast. It wouldn't be beneficial at all if translations wouldn't be published publicly because some asshats think they have the right to just take them without permission to throw them on some scanlation made with Paint.Quote:
Funny. Just above you were clearly babbling about translations.Quote:
Yes you are free to state your opinion, it's the free internet after all. But you aren't being taken serious by the people in charge, nor by the people who are actively contributing to the community. Ask yourself of how much worth your opinion is.
I quote myself: "You didn't do anything to begin with. Do you even realize what you are complaining about here?"Quote:
Yes, please do that. Oh, and really? (v5?)Quote:
Last edited by zidane; September 01, 2009 at 03:50 AM.
In point 4 you are asking us to be ethical and credit the English scanlators (for what other reason other than ethics would credits be given... courtesy is a part of ethics after all) and in point 1 you are stating that ethical people have nothing to do here... I guess you are pretty right by saying "So I was wrong saying that people like to talk but are doing the things they are talking against?", because I can't help but find both of those points in complete contradiction.
Yeah, only solution will be to buy the raw manga ourselves. I'm pretty sure that that way of thinking will eventually lead you to telling people that don't understand Japanese to hire a translator and pay for a translation. It's a valid argument, after all, since it all comes down to paying money for something someone else did, which is the courteous thing to do.
And sorry, from reading everything that you've posted, it appears to me that the ones that cried out where the English scanlators pleading that a rule that's been here for several years be enforced (particularly Blinktopia since they've been the only one defending this issue, plus one of them said in a post somewhere here that the admins of this site are personal friends of his/her. I've failed to see up till this moment someone not being from Blinktopia defend completely that rule... I fail to see any other English scanlating group debating here, and why this only became an important issue until their scanlations got severely stolen this weekend (hence the reminder of the rule) and not when it has been going on with SleepyFans for some time, including previous weeks, makes me wonder if I'm actually debating against an objective, not biased admin that isn't just at this very moment backing up only Blinktopia's interests, although in the near future that same posture will, I'm sure, be backing up all the scanlating groups' interests by preventing scanlating groups from removing their works).
And the hypocrisy, as I clearly see it, is you telling all the International Scanlators not to steal, while you encourage the posting of manga that is, in fact, stolen (given that they are posted by scanlating groups). That's the hypocrisy that has been discussed in this topic and from which you wish attention not be focused to. Remember, you told me that even if credit is given, scans can't be used if we haven't got permission, so your rule is not actually that much about giving credit, but more of "having permission", so stop focusing only on the credits part. Ok, now that I think of it, your rule is only against the stealing of Scanlations, not of stealing manga, so I guess you have a point there about why your rule is valid due to a technicality. And yes, you are the administrator of this site so you can make whatever rules you wish to, there's no point in me debating anything. If people didn't complain, then things wouldn't be done. If Blinktopia hadn't complained this weekend, you wouldn't have posted this. So yes, I'm complaining, but so did Blinktopia, and so did you by creating both this news posts (You actually need to stop only judging other people and also take a moment to look at how you act, since you've very much done everything you are accusing everyone else of doing). I don't know, but just sitting back quietly and accepting things without trying to bring about change that one considers positive, is just being submissive. I'm sure that Blinktopia didn't sit back, but complained. Did you tell them to stop crying? I bet you didn't, and the easiest way for them was to complain to their admin friend, instead of contacting each scanlating group and kindly asking them to cease. However, since they think like you do, you fail to judge them too... I think Blinktopia should be (I'm serious) applauded for complaining about something that is just plain wrong, which consists in not giving due credit, and trying to make a change.
Anyway, as you stated, my real issue is not with your rule, since I'll definitely be following it, but with the availability of RAWs (If RAWs are available, there's no need to use the English groups' scans), so hence I will leave this topic seeing that you are correct on that matter, and that I do think credit should be given. I've got to take my discussion up with the groups somewhere else, evidently, and ask them for their RAWs, instead of arguing here something that isn't the topic of discussion. Sorry for bothering you with these trivialities that I should have taken up with the scanlating groups instead.
So you did in fact ask the mangaka for permission, and he gave it... which is what MangaHelpers wants people to do. If you please re-read what the admin posted, he is not asking as just to credit, but expressly have their affirmative permission.Quote:
Rule Summarized: Ask for permission. If affirmative and express permission is granted, then give credit. If express permission is not given (silence would count as not giving permission), then don't use the scans.
Even if we give credit, that is not enough to comply with the rule being enforced. I'm just explaining the "logicality" of my statement, nothing more, since you didn't understand it. Your equation failed, thus, because you failed to include the "Blinktopia has express permission part", and hence you can't compare yourself to the International groups' current situation. Of course, you can't give me the Japflap example because I expressly mentioned that the permission shouldn't be required when no other RAWs or scanlators are available, but I've already given up on this issue since things won't get changed. I only question the permission part, yet people seem to think that I'm against giving credit, which is not the situation. Anyway, the rule is a rule that's not going to be changed, so my arguments become pretty useless.
Note: The following has nothing to do with the topic in discussion.
Now that is illogical, that argument won't stand anywhere... Google isn't the one that does the translation, in this case. You do it the moment you hit the "translate" button (you wouldn't blame a translating dictionary now, would you), as is the case with most programs used to make illegal things; you can't blame the program itself, you can't blame the application, as you can't blame the gun/bullet for killing someone and wanting the gun manufacturers to be responsible. You are the only one responsible of the use that you give to things, be it a legal or illegal use.Quote:
You post your translation on MangaHelpers, you are thus publishing it. Just because the button might say post (I've got no idea what it says), that doesn't mean your definition has to be the legal one. You are fixing it in a medium, probably for more time than can be considered fair use, and are making it available to the public at a whole, which is called "publishing". If you think publishing (in legal terms) only involves publishing things in a book that is going to be sold, you are way wrong.
Anyway, the rule is the rule, as I've already found out it's not going to be changed, nor any toleration given. So there's really no more reason to continue arguing this like the admin said. So, I'll leave, comply with any rules as has always been my intention, and part the reason why I wanted to get a little exception introduced into it. If anyone wants to reply to what I've said, do it but don't expect an answer, since there is no point in debating if people are going to get nowhere and debating is not encouraged.
To make this clear. I mentioned only Binktopia because that's my group. I don't see myself in any position to talk for other groups, but international stealings happens to them too, and they report it also. And I merely reported scanlations that went against the rules of mangahelpers. Been doing that for the past ~8 weeks, after ignoring that whole scene for over a year and a half (and before I was one of you, an international scanlator). The stealing cases increased. It was fun seeing the process, but I wasn't crying at any point. It happens. Like I stated before, if it doesn't change, watermarks will follow. Not going to comment on your other babbling.
He just wanted to say it's Binktopia, not Blinktopia.Quote:
Last edited by zidane; September 01, 2009 at 10:30 AM.
I just want to say thanks to all those who work hard at bring the manga to us for our enjoyment, also thanking those who help make and maintain this site plus the forums. I myself understand why the groups would like to be mentioned in the other translations because Im a DJ and I know if Im at a party and I hear another dj do a mix that I know he got from me yet he pretending its his it does kind of get to me. It used to get to me to the point where I wanted to straight up battle him/her at a party just to embarrass him/her. However a friend of mines pointed out that it should be more amusing than irratating. She went to say that its like your raising your child, you should be more amused and happy when they mimic your actions. So take it from that like, your just raising a young group trying to make it out. But hey its your work, your time, and just my opinion cause as I said I see both sides of the coin. Much love to everyone.
R.I.P DJ K Swift - We will miss you girl...
After reading all of this thread, I don't really know what to say first...
Well, first of all, most English scanlation groups do credit the mangaka, even if they don't put the name romanized, they keep it in Japanese (except for some cases where the name is out of the panels and is unwantedly covered by the rebordering). And we all know, and all leechers know (I hope so) that we don't make the manga. If they want to know who is the author or the publishing company or the magazine in which that manga is, they can find it easily searching the web.
Now, we English scanlators take our time to clean the raws and give them quality (lower or higher, but always better than the raw untouched, except for some speedy shitty scans), and some of us pay for the raws that we get. The least we can ask for is a credit. And that credit should be provided by following the rules we want, since after all, if you don't like our rules, just don't use our scans.
Now, for international scanlations, people can't know who they took the manga from, without a credit page. If they use our scans, since we've cleaned them, they should aknowledge us, just like we aknowledge the mangakas. It's not such a bother to add a damn credit page, imho. If the group requests you to add a mention to them, if you don't have a credit page of your own, you can just add a mention in one of the pages, it's not that hard. And if they request you to add their credit page, is it really such a bother to take a file and add it to the release unchanged, when you've already taken all other files in the English release and modified them...?
About watermarks and forbidding: I'm completely against that. But have in mind that scanlators do that because they're sick of international releases using their cleaning without a single credit. If you were in the same situation, what would you do? And besides, if international scanlators credited the English groups in the first place, there would be no watermarks and no forbidding at all in any group. The problem about that starts only in the international scanlators who don't credit, not in the "selfish" English scanlators.
As an addition: I've been an international translator and scanlator myself, so I know by first-hand.
And I think that's all I wanted to say... Maybe I missed some points though.
Last edited by unok-kun; September 01, 2009 at 02:26 PM.
First time we warn, second time we ban the group in question for a month. Third time it's a permanent bye-bye from mangahelpers.
But we don't have the staff to go frequently on patrol, so we have to rely on reports. It's impossible for us to look at every int scan and compare it to every english scan and having every group policy out there in mind, hoping to find a possible stealing case.
Just for clarification.
Also, the reason why many groups ask you to keep the credit page in the release is because the credit page often contains information on the mangaka and the request to BUY the manga. Keeping the credit page in is a way for the group to control that the following group is encouraging their readers to do so as well.
And I honestly fail seeing why people have a problem to give credit when they use someone else work. That's a simple matter of politeness. If you don't want to credit anyone, go and clean the raws yourself *shrugs*
Seriously, that the raws ain't publicy available (very rare, nowadays!) isn't an excuse. The group you take the scans from paid the books themself in that case and so can you.
Last edited by eni; September 01, 2009 at 04:44 PM.
This is the most hypocritical argument I ever read.
So you buy ONE copy of the manga book (which contains a big number of mangas which basically makes every manga in there to cost pennies.) and then you do one hour's worth of cleaning on it (after you apply the algorithm to smooth the images)
and then distribute it to millions of people FOR FREE!!!!! and then YOU want credit?
Giving the Mangaka's credit does not mean that you are A-Ok with them. You still rob them of their money.
And they worked 10 times harder then you.
Credits mean NOTHING in this game after you distribute something --that costs a lot of money to the real creator-- for free on the internet.
what exactly bothers you with other people using your "work"? They are doing the same to as you do to the mangaka.
You rob the mangaka of his hard earned money and then you cry about someone not crediting you for one hour work? Give me a break. You guys are hypocrites.
I used to clean pages for Shannaro! back in 2006/ 2007 if I remember the year correctly. I was credited on almost all those scanlations even when I didn't clean or do anything at all. I sometimes wasn't credited on chapters where I did the whole thing (cleaning typesting, QCing) other then translating. And a lot of people (specially in my country) were using our scanlations with their language on it.
I don't think any of us cared.
This whole thing is a non-issue. I think you guys should get of your high horse and realize that you're on the internet and that this WILL happen even if you don't want it to and that you also you don't deserve to. If you remember the case of DB and Youtubers uploading their episodes on YouTube despite the constant warnings from DB. They did it just to fuck with DB. You will get the same because you did that to the mangaka.
The wide majority of manga out there has only a couple of hundred, if ever, readers. Just because it's online available doesn't mean that many people actually read it. Millions? Please. Don't make the scene bigger as it is. There's a reason why so many of us active ones know each other by names.
On the 'high horse' are, IMHO, the people who take everything for granted and use the 'it's the internet' excuse to leech of others without spending a single thought on the actual reasons and backgrounds. Most groups who put restrictions on their releases do this to keep the spreading in check as a form of politness towards the mangaka. They do it to ensure that the manga is promoted in a way that it deserves. Those groups CARE A LOT for the mangaka and try to encourage people in supporting the original author. Many ask to stop spreading their scans when the actual volume was licensed/released.
Nobody needs to argue with this utterly stupid 'you broke the copyright first' argument when he's not able to differ a controled way of sharing (promoting and making available to those who can't) with blunt pirating (who cares for copyright, I just take what I want). And the latter is what groups do who do not credit anyone at all, not the group that provided the English scan first and sadly also not the original author.
Release restrictions are the only way for groups to keep it controled in favor for the original author: What happends to the scans. Where the scans spread. Stopping the release.
Of course, there are many leecher who don't care. But those are the ones who actually break this legal grey zone by take'n'run scans without caring for the restriction reasons. Those are the ones who choose to ignore the requests which were put up to keep the spreading in check. You may do this in your little 'freezone' part of the internet, but not at MH. Simple as that.
Last edited by eni; September 01, 2009 at 06:07 PM.