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View Poll Results: Is Naruto going downhill?

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  • Yes

    232 47.93%
  • No

    252 52.07%
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Thread: Is Naruto going downhill or not

  1. #601
    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity ashher's Avatar
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    Re: Is Naruto going downhill or not

    @ jammin i rather disagree with the suggestions that you made. Just cause something is character driven doesn't mean that it can't have no plot, and if it can have some plot...it might as well be a plot revolving uchiha and senju...cause they are intricately personal to both the main characters. Killing of the current villains would hardly do justice to the mysterious build up of tobi.

    ---------- Post added at 05:51 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:35 AM ----------

    Its true that the growth/change/development of naruto as a character was mostly done long before the end of the series. However that doesn't necessarily mean that his value as a character disappeared with that. Characterization doesn't only mean that a character has to evolve and change continuously...it also means to discover more and more details of him through his normal interactions, nothing like personality changing. After the training arc in the kumo island, where i believe naruto finally came to peace with himself and understood things clearly, he should've been allowed to show what he's become at the end of this long journey. Instead of putting him away only for him to have a fan-service speed contest with A, kishimoto should've involved him with the preparations for war. Should've shown his interactions with rookies, we've seen precious few of that in part 2. Unfortunately only times we've seen him interacting with anyone since then were bizus, and while he was pretty cool at times(the time he pinned down 9t), we've seen his messiah act before. So nothing new there. A cheerful but truly confident (not the empty bragging kind) naruto working with kages/tsunade to prepare for the war would've been new and interesting. And that would've give the necessary spacing between all the messiah parts.

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  3. #602
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Ryr's Avatar
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    Re: Is Naruto dying?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jammin View Post
    An example of how that can be done is by doing something like..
    • Having Naruto captured and the Kyuubi extracted.
      He needs to be taken off his pedestal and this is the only way that happens.
    • Have Sasuke die or lose his eyes or both.
      He needs to get out of the way of Naruto's character growth and be nerfed down to the level of mortal men. So dead or a blind swordsman
    Frankly, if Kishi takes the above suggestions, then Naruto would really go downhill.

    Naruto as a character has grown from an isolated, self-depressed character back in the days when he was a kid, into someone who can influence and change others for the better. And this ability is the central theme of the whole manga, since we are shown that any attempt to benefit your own village at the expense of the other villages almost always ends up creating more enemies for your own village (i.e. Danzou), so Naruto the character represents a hope that the whole Narutoverse would cease from being entrenched in the never-ending cycle of selfishness and revenge.

    Sasuke as a character is growing, despite what the haters would suggest. As someone who has been hidden from the truth by both Itachi and the whole village, he is now beginning to question the position in which he was put in. He wants to seek out the entire truth in relation to Konoha's past and from there makes a decision on what action should be appropriate. This represents freewill. Granted, his final decision may or may not benefit Konoha, but having the freewill to do what he thinks is right in a world where everyone else strictly follows protocol or orders from above is the whole point of his character.

    There you go, the depths of the manga which are often overlooked or ignored.

    Anytime I see people still complaining about how the manga has no depth or however you phrase it, I'll simply smack this entire post in that thread.

  4. #603
    MH's Best Reviewer MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Jammin's Avatar
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    Re: Is Naruto going downhill or not

    Quote Originally Posted by ashher View Post
    @ jammin i rather disagree with the suggestions that you made. Just cause something is character driven doesn't mean that it can't have no plot, and if it can have some plot...it might as well be a plot revolving uchiha and senju...cause they are intricately personal to both the main characters. Killing of the current villains would hardly do justice to the mysterious build up of tobi.

    ---------- Post added at 05:51 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:35 AM ----------

    Its true that the growth/change/development of naruto as a character was mostly done long before the end of the series. However that doesn't necessarily mean that his value as a character disappeared with that. Characterization doesn't only mean that a character has to evolve and change continuously...it also means to discover more and more details of him through his normal interactions, nothing like personality changing. After the training arc in the kumo island, where i believe naruto finally came to peace with himself and understood things clearly, he should've been allowed to show what he's become at the end of this long journey. Instead of putting him away only for him to have a fan-service speed contest with A, kishimoto should've involved him with the preparations for war. Should've shown his interactions with rookies, we've seen precious few of that in part 2. Unfortunately only times we've seen him interacting with anyone since then were bizus, and while he was pretty cool at times(the time he pinned down 9t), we've seen his messiah act before. So nothing new there. A cheerful but truly confident (not the empty bragging kind) naruto working with kages/tsunade to prepare for the war would've been new and interesting. And that would've give the necessary spacing between all the messiah parts.
    I was answering questions that were posed. Namely... "What went wrong?", "When did it start going wrong?", and "What would it take to fix it?"

    Obviously the best solution would be fore things to have taken a different course than they had and for Kishimoto to actually be a good at writing a plot based narrative; problem is that's none of that happened and there is no rewriting it now. Every week he has to pile more dues ex machina on just to keep things moving the way he wants it to; if the plot based narrative is well written, the author should never be forced to do that.

    Would things be lost by my solution? Absolutely, but I didn't hear you suggest something better.

    -----------------------------------------------------

    If you'll forgive the long analogy; going through this war plot is swimming in a dirty river. It seems like a great idea until you actually get in there then you discover it smell a bit like cat piss. Now you could keeps swimmin' and try and ignore the stench and slightly "off" texture of the water; or you could go home take a shower and find a better place to swim (perhaps upstream of the chemical plant next time).

    After reading around 80 chapters of poor characterization, frequent dues ex machina, cheap power-ups, and occasional straight up bad writing I vote shower.
    Last edited by Jammin; July 14, 2012 at 08:19 AM.
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    I Don't Want This Kind of Hero [Esp. for Superhero/Comedy fans]
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  5. #604
    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity ashher's Avatar
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    Re: Is Naruto going downhill or not

    ^ while i did not divide my post under headings of those questions(or rather couldn't), i do think my post also has the answers. You pointed out that there is a problem with naruto's characterization. I agreed and instead of suggesting to totally demolish all the progress beforehand(losing kyuubi and coming down from pedestal), i showed that even after the island training arc...there were plenty of spaces to move forward with this character. The very point of this character was to end up on a pedestal...i believe that there was a better way to do that, which is what i pointed out...while your suggestion only regressed him to an older point, with little directive as to how to move forward from there. Another organization at this point would hardly make sense. Similarly i also gave opinion on 'where i believe something went amiss'...it was with the pacing of the story. With more human interactions inserted in, it'd have served both the purpose of characterization and a better build up. In fact if one stops and thinks, most of what seemed like sudden inconsistancies are quite explainable. Only kishimoto in his hurry couldn't find the space to provide them. This lack of detail is what hurt the execution of plot at times, just like it did with characterization...but that doesn't rebuff the fact that the direction towards which the manga/plot is going is exciting. In chapter discussion thread you'd see that despite disappointing fights and weak characterization of this arc, most of the ppl are still glued to this cause they are intrigued about the mysteries of this current plot. So i don't see any point in suggesting to totally demolish the current plot(as you suggested by taking out uchiha and senju), but i rather proposed 'a slower paced, more detailed' execution of this very same plot as what i think would've saved the day.

  6. #605
    MH's Best Reviewer MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Jammin's Avatar
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    Re: Is Naruto going downhill or not

    Quote Originally Posted by ashher View Post
    ^ while i did not divide my post under headings of those questions(or rather couldn't), i do think my post also has the answers. You pointed out that there is a problem with naruto's characterization. I agreed and instead of suggesting to totally demolish all the progress beforehand(losing kyuubi and coming down from pedestal), i showed that even after the island training arc...there were plenty of spaces to move forward with this character. The very point of this character was to end up on a pedestal...i believe that there was a better way to do that, which is what i pointed out...while your suggestion only regressed him to an older point, with little directive as to how to move forward from there. Another organization at this point would hardly make sense. Similarly i also gave opinion on 'where i believe something went amiss'...it was with the pacing of the story. With more human interactions inserted in, it'd have served both the purpose of characterization and a better build up. In fact if one stops and thinks, most of what seemed like sudden inconsistancies are quite explainable. Only kishimoto in his hurry couldn't find the space to provide them. This lack of detail is what hurt the execution of plot at times, just like it did with characterization...but that doesn't rebuff the fact that the direction towards which the manga/plot is going is exciting. In chapter discussion thread you'd see that despite disappointing fights and weak characterization of this arc, most of the ppl are still glued to this cause they are intrigued about the mysteries of this current plot. So i don't see any point in suggesting to totally demolish the current plot(as you suggested by taking out uchiha and senju), but i rather proposed 'a slower paced, more detailed' execution of this very same plot as what i think would've saved the day.
    Ah, that's right your typing that on a phone aren't you? Though it's usually to a safe bet to assume I would skim block text, I read and considered your post pretty carefully (or at least I think I did.)

    My understanding was that you stated what you thought the cause was and how you thought it could have been prevented but you never stated how you thought it could be fixed; beyond going back in time and doing things differently(which would obviously be preferable but not actually possible).

    I agree with the idea that more character detail and better build up to the war would have helped the series greatly but I don't agree that is the root cause of the troubles. Adding detail and better interweaving character content couldn't have prevented the many problems of Edo Tensei, the dues ex machina(like Sasuke randomly running into Itachi for example), the tangled pacing(Naruto vs Tobi, Kage's vs Madara, and Uchiha bros vs Kabuto all at the same time...), and the countless other issues on top of those. Lack of of character detail didn't cause those problems so how exactly could it have fixed them?
    Last edited by Jammin; July 12, 2012 at 05:06 PM.
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  7. #606
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    Re: Is Naruto going downhill or not

    Yes, it had almost reached the end of the hill for me.
    In the past, reading naruto was so much fun and so full of excitement and anticipation.
    Now, this entire war is a freaking chore.

    Look, I don't get the 1000 theories and strategies about ninjutsus in naruto. Really, I don't care at all. None of those so-called awesome fighting tactics and jutsulogy can ever bring back the feeling that old Naruto gave to me. I rather have kakashi's stealth lesson than a war of superpower humans claming to be ninjas any day.
    I hate how haxx the sharingan is, I hate how dumb and hateable Sasuke has gotten and
    I hate how this series which initially started off as a ninja series turned out into another generic bomb and pows fest towards the very end.

    In fact, I bore through Naruto since the end of the Kage's Summit. Don't even get me started on how much a wreck that arc was. Sasuke intelligently charging into the hokages room, an experienced danzo can't count numbers, sakura, naruto fainting, tobi declaring war with nothing, Konoha 11 was there for nothing, and sakura, again.

    Despite all that, it was enjoyable because of the characters that played a part, mainly the team 7 reunion that I enjoyed but that was the only thing that redeemed it.

    I would like to write a full essay on how much I hate this final arc right now but I'll pass because there's really no point until the conclusion.

    Just tell me when Sasuke and Naruto meet again, that is when I'll be back posting in this forum because those two are the other characters that I care, that Kishimoto actually cares about out of the Konoha 11.

    The last chapter was the nail on the coffin, not the final nail...but a grave one nonetheless.

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  9. #607
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    Re: Is Naruto going downhill or not

    Quote Originally Posted by ashher View Post
    @ jammin i rather disagree with the suggestions that you made. Just cause something is character driven doesn't mean that it can't have no plot, and if it can have some plot...it might as well be a plot revolving uchiha and senju...cause they are intricately personal to both the main characters. Killing of the current villains would hardly do justice to the mysterious build up of tobi.

    ---------- Post added at 05:51 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:35 AM ----------

    Its true that the growth/change/development of naruto as a character was mostly done long before the end of the series. However that doesn't necessarily mean that his value as a character disappeared with that. Characterization doesn't only mean that a character has to evolve and change continuously...it also means to discover more and more details of him through his normal interactions, nothing like personality changing. After the training arc in the kumo island, where i believe naruto finally came to peace with himself and understood things clearly, he should've been allowed to show what he's become at the end of this long journey. Instead of putting him away only for him to have a fan-service speed contest with A, kishimoto should've involved him with the preparations for war. Should've shown his interactions with rookies, we've seen precious few of that in part 2. Unfortunately only times we've seen him interacting with anyone since then were bizus, and while he was pretty cool at times(the time he pinned down 9t), we've seen his messiah act before. So nothing new there. A cheerful but truly confident (not the empty bragging kind) naruto working with kages/tsunade to prepare for the war would've been new and interesting. And that would've give the necessary spacing between all the messiah parts.
    I would have been interested in this as well. It's a brillant idea to show Naruto's growth

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  11. #608
    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity jaymizzo's Avatar
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    Re: Is Naruto going downhill or not

    I honestly saw a completely different future for Naruto. I always imagined Naruto going on a journey and learning more things and gaining experience. And even maybe having his own pupils (Konohamaru and co.).

    With the way the Manga has gone so far, it has completely killed the possibility of Naruto showing his leadership or teaching skills or doing anything other than mopping over Sasuke. Even if Naruto goes on to find more about the Uzumaki and Namikaze (if they have a clan) it would be pointless IMO.

    Still, the Manga has some juice in it, but its just not as appealing story wise anymore. Its just turning into one of those generic nuking Shounen
    "Man hands misery onto man" - Philip Larkin

  12. #609
    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity ashher's Avatar
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    Re: Is Naruto going downhill or not

    ^ one might say that going here and there in missions is rather a generic shonen trope as well.

  13. #610
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Brill's Avatar
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    Re: Is Naruto going downhill or not

    Well, if the rumors about the series extending for 1.5 years are true and with the recent developments in the stroyline, it looks like the Sasuke/Naruto fight will be conducted in a separate arc, post-war. You still have plenty of character development opportunities with thiis scenario. Just because we're not getting a "Kiba! No..............!" deathbed confession doesn't mean the characterization has been nil. While the heavy characrter development was necessary in part one because teams were essential for survival, it doesn't have the same wegith when the characters become more independent and capable of doing things for themselves. Kishi wanted to be more story focused with older, more capable shinobi instead of having 20 Rock Lee bath house mini-arcs like we just had. They all (except Naruto) passed their right of passage and they're moving on, so should the readers.

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