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Translations: Bleach 600 (2)
Has anyone thought about basic geometry? If I'm blocking an attack, I have a much smaller radius to cover in order to parry it than you do to swing at me. If I know which direction I need to be blocking in, as soon as you break your sword off for the next swing, I can move my sword to block. I have the time it takes to take your sword away, then move to the other side, then swing again. The difference is that I only need to move my sword to the other side.
It's not that easy. Firstly, sword is not a shield and unless you're holding it at the right angle the attacker will penetrate your defenses, for example attacker's sword will bounce/slide and cut someone anyway or if the attacker is stronger it will end up like this:
You also have to take into account that the attacker can change the angle of the attack at the last moment (and because it would be last moment and because you would be slower you wouldn't have time to react). So if you try to parry the attack too soon or too late you lose anyway. If Teresa could win against Priscilla only thanks to PYS and skill but she would be significantly weaker ONE mistake would cost her a life (and I'm not talking about a mistake of showing your back to the enemy which she did by shutting her youki off). Notice that it would still only allow Teresa only to defend herself but what about attacking? If Priscilla was faster the moment Teresa tried to attack her she would be injured but we haven't seen that. Also Priscilla shouldn't be injured if she was faster and it was that much easier to parry than to attack.
What's more, muscles that are responsible for parrying are weaker and slower than the onces used to attack (try to move your arm close to you sideways and then try to make jabs/swings, you will see that the latter movements are faster).
The problem here is that you need to know at what angle you need to hold your sword and PYS can't help you with that. I would like you to read my earlier post in this thread and reply to it because I don't want to repeat myself for a hundredth time. In short, while PYS can approximate where does the youki flow (and that way discern the attack) it can't help you to hold a sword in a right way and if the attack is more random you will end up injured anyway. That's one of the reasons why Clare was injured by Ophelia, although Teresa wasn't injured even by random attacks that Priscilla used (because she was faster and stronger). I've also written that earlier.
I think anyone who's ever done any martial arts will confirm that attacking is much easier than defending... Simply because the body of the opponent that you want to hit as well as his guard are much slower than the attacks you are trying to block or evade. In an extreme case, think of the difference of firing a gun at a moving target versus dodging a bullet...
like gernot said:
attacking is ALWAYS faster then defending as there is ALWAYS reaction time.
the secret when you're on defense is to attack/strike/move FIRST, putting the "attacker" on defense (make him have to react, which is slower)
if you're in arm's reach, and the other person has a gun:
if you move first (and do it fast enough/are trained well), your hand will get to the gun and move it out away from your head, before he can pull the trigger.
despite the bullet being faster then your arm (and head. you wanna move your head away from the gun too obviously) movement, the problem is, that he has to pull the trigger, and since you've attacked/struck/moved first, he is REACTING which means his pulling of the trigger is delayed enough that you can move the gun before it fires. (but this takes much training).
of course, actual combat is even more complicated then this, as experienced fighters/warriors know that reaction time makes them slower.
the attacker, while his attack is faster, is put off-balance, in a vulnerable position, or has to recover/recoil from his attack. While the defender is slower due to reaction time, he's still fast enough to block, guard, parry, dodge, or etc the attack and ALSO counter attack, which now the attacker can't respond to because he is in an even longer reaction time due to having attacked.
it gets really complicated. Fighting actually has a lot of knowledge and science to it, though natural ability and training are of course just as important too. "Stupid" people can certainly get into a fight, but they won't be alive afterwards. Fighting and surviving isn't for "stupid" people. Fighting requires as much knowledge/intelligence as any academic science field. In fact, fighting/combat IS PHYSICS, ENGINEERING too with leverage and balance/ceneter of gravity and etc, AND BIOLOGY/ANATOMY with using the body and its weak points (joints and nervous system and etc) or with knowing that stressed/damaged bone/muscle will OVER-repair giving extra layers of bone/muscle, thus increasing it, allowing for a person to have twice as big knuckles on their fists or bones on their feet/shins allowing them to punch or kick stuff without injury which would injure the normal person with the normal layers/amount of bone/muscle or bigger/bulkier muscles (which weight lifters well know about as well as martial artists).
there's also distance of bodies from each other and strike range distance of the fighters, and styles of fighting (linier vs circular or crouched/ground/rolling vs standing vs jumping or hands/arms vs feet/legs or striking vs grappling or speed vs power are just some examples of different styles) and/or angle of strikes/attacks. also, like briefly mentioned, balance and center of gravity is extremely important as well. being able to do combos or sequences of movements, positionings, or attacks. etc etc etc
lastly, there's the greatest weapon of combat/fighting (and war itself):
probably most of you are familar with the "drunken" style of fighting. pretending to be drunk and moving in a drunk like manner to make it impossible for the opponent to know what you'll do next. feints or tricks. baiting an opening. pretending to retreat, back up, or be scared. etc.. DECEPTION is the most feared and deadly weapon of all.
Last edited by HegemonKhan; January 26, 2010 at 03:52 PM.
It's not that hard for Teresa to stop Irene's Flash sword with a slower arm speed, though foresight was probably not her only advantage. Perhaps her overall body speed was faster (if Irene's released arm was the only part that could challenge Teresa in speed, it's almost certain Teresa was faster everywhere else); almost certainly her arm strength was far more powerful, and by packing more weight into each blow she was slowing down the speed of Irene's sword. Perhaps Teresa was more agile and had better swordsmanship sense, and thereby could trap Irene's sword, limiting the paths it could escape to. It's really not that hard to seal the speed of an opponent's sword especially if one has better body speed, strength, agility, and foresight. You see it in kendo alot, two people pressed together at close body range, swords locked together.
The point is not whether Teresa had faster ARM SPEED or not - she may very well have been faster in ARM MOVEMENT than Irene - but that she has fought several times with Irene, and shown that she could stop Irene's Quick Sword with a slower ARM SPEED. Which was why Irene surmised that Teresa may be slightly inferior to #2-4 compared to their areas of specialty (that opens up the possibility that Teresa was better than any single of them in two out of three specialties - it's not a necessary condition based off what Irene said but quite possible). Again, if Teresa had shown that she had equal or superior ARM SPEED in her past exchanges with Irene, then Irene's statement would be meaningless. And I think a #2 who prided herself on the speed of the sword could evaluate the speed of what Teresa's sword showed, even if that wasn't Teresa's true sword speed. So it is possible to overcome the Quick Sword with a slower ARM SPEED by a combination of various other factors, whether it's a combination of body speed, arm strength, foresight, agility, sword sense, or maybe Teresa's sword had superglue on it lol.
Thus rendering the whole argument that Teresa had to be faster pretty pointless. It doesn't distinguish much between different types of speed (leg speed and footwork is particularly important in kendo), and it doesn't really take into account that Teresa's other attributes may slow down Irene's sword from its maximum speed.
Last edited by Reenie; January 29, 2010 at 12:40 PM.
Reaction times of the defender? We all know that someone using PYS isn't engaged in a conventional fight, and, in most instances of fighting against youki based opponents, reaction time is not an issue for such a person. During the Slashers arc, there were occasions when the ab couldn't even touch Clare, despite his best efforts. You should be challenging the reaction time of the attacker when it comes to PYS. Provided the youki based attacker isn't infinitely beyond the reach of the defender who uses PYS, the attacker is the one at a disadvantage.
Sigh, I don't know why hegemon revived this discussion when makaveli did such a good job of killing it. Those who believe the PYS was more than enough to counter Irene's QS still believe so, and those opposed to that argument still are. Since the challenge is directed toward a fairly straightforward scene in the manga, the only recourse for those opposed is to simply write and challenge Yagi for an explanation. Until then, let this thread die again.
Last edited by kaliayev; January 31, 2010 at 11:31 AM. Reason: I'm so brilliant that I put Nagi instead of Yagi.
I think the answer is quite simple. She's faster than Irene. As seen, despite what others have said, she's not just the greatest sensor of all time but she's stronger, faster, more agile and has more stamina than everyone else. As seen in her fight she is faster and more agile than Noel, stronger than Sophia, has more stamina than Priscilla (un-awakened) so it makes sense she could be faster than Irene too. People forget that Teresa only has to release 10% of her Yoki because she has SO much of it. All that Yoki makes her strong, even when she's not releasing it.
Sophia, Noel, and Ophelia could NOT even see Irene's sword when she does the Quick Sword.
Teresa (debate over if she's using her PYS or not though), Clare (WOW! Unless she too is using the PYS, lol), and maybe Priscilla WERE ABLE TO SEE Irene's sword while she did the Quick Sword.
Priscilla directly (and CORRECTLY) told us:
~"Am I slowing down? No! Teresa is getting faster then me!" (and yet Teresa hasn't released any yoki.... hmmm... this is interesting.... grins)
Irene WRONGLY tells us:
~"Our individual skills are superior to Teresa's...."
WRONG, Irene! All 4 of you (Irene, Sophia, Noel, and Priscilla) couldn't even scratch her, while releasing 30% or 50% yoki, while she wasn't releasing any yoki, while going at her at the same time, in a 4v1. And, despite not even being scratched by all 4 of you, Teresa WAS BESTING each of you at your individual skills! Irene thinking that their individual skills were superior to Teresa's = FAIL!
How could Teresa stop the Flash Sword?
*1. Teresa's PYS vs "normally" being able to see it with her own eyes
2. Teresa's (normal) sword swing is simply even faster then Irene's Quick Sword's sword swing.
3. both #1 and #2 together.
*If people think that Teresa still wasn't able to use her PYS to sense Priscilla's yoki after she-Teresa released 10% yoki, then by default they believe that Teresa was seeing with her eyes Orcish Near-Awakened Priscilla's FAST-WHIP-LIKE sword swings with her extendable arm. And, this could very well be at an even faster speed then the Quick Sword, which would mean that you'd believe that Teresa could actually see the Quick Sword with her own eyes, and not even need her PYS
*If people think that after Teresa released her 10% yoki, that she was then able to use her PYS to sense Priscilla's yoki again, then it is undetermined whether Teresa could see the Quick Sword with her own eyes without using the PYS to "see" the Quick Sword.
Last edited by HegemonKhan; August 30, 2010 at 05:16 PM.
Well, despite her natural reflexes and battle experience, also with her youki-sensing ability, I'm sure Teresa was actualy faster, no: much faster, than Irene. This quickness wasn't just because she actualy could move her arm faster, but also because she could anticipate every movement of the enemy.
This is so true, that when blocking the multiple instant hits of the quicksword and being atacked by priscila at the same time, Teresa EVEN cut irene down. I think that is being ridiculously fast.
If you don't remember, you can check the fight at 9:45 in here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdjM5...eature=related
Does Teresa have the PYSA?
what does everyone think?
There's no direct showing of her having-using the PYSA, it's only mentioned via the text, through only Irene (I think).
The only knowledge we have of the PYSA, is through Clare's own real-actual-existing PYSA...
Irene is dead wrong about their skills being superior to Teresa as she bests each of them at their skills.
Irene also wrongly assumes "Faint Smile" to refer to the PYSA "of Teresa's", when actually it refers to Teresa's supremacy of power, in never needing to YR, hence her face never distorts, hence why Teresa always has the "Faint Smile" upon her lips, as Orsay correctly informs us.
So... does Teresa truly have the PYSA, or did Irene mistakenly make this "PYSA" up about Teresa? Did Clare learn an Ability that never actually existed... ???
here's more details in regards to the PYSA:
Last edited by HegemonKhan; December 20, 2011 at 11:57 PM.
The ability to predetermine someone's thoughts or actions is difficult to portray through any medium. I don't think Yagi could do it in a fighting scene. You would have to show a progression of actions and reactions leading to such a conclusion.
Irene states that Teresa can sense the flow of youki as it moves within a warrior's body. The flow of you youki telegraphs the warrior's actions. Therefore, Teresa already knows her opponent's moves before her foe has already initiated the movement It would seem a distinct advantage to have such an ability. She obviously has the skills to counter the moves as well. Having fore knowledge and having the ability to quickly counter are probably the marquee skills of Teresa of the Faint Smile.
If Yagi states she has it then regardless of speculation she does until he says otherwise. That's the nice part about being the author, what you say is law in your series, no matter how farfetched it could possibly be.
I personally agree with Wicked here. Its a hard thing to portray short of taking entire cells to draw out some sort of image of Yoki flowing through a body which would probably seem a little Naruto-esqe. I don't agree that Irene's assessment was entirely wrong either(speculation not author fact) as stated above preemptive Yoki reading against a Claymore is like being able to see ahead into the future. Teresa had a high spec well rounded body to match a perfect combat skill. Even if you have one skill fractionally better then Teresa's, she'll still destroy you.
If you know whats coming and when you cause the most efficient option with the least excess movement in order to counter your enemy. Teresa never really wasted energy, she was always extremely efficient in combat which goes towards showing that she could read her opponents.
2. Irene is embarrassingly wrong about many things in this section (Teresa arc-chapters). Not a wise source for us readers to be using obviously, and she's the ONLY source (I think) of Teresa "supposedly" having this so called "PYSA". Also, if Teresa had the PYSA, then how would it be possible for the PYSA to not be able to read Priscilla? I thought the PYSA was the perfect skill for opponents who YR, the more the YR the more advantage to the PYSA user? This contradiction only supports Teresa actually NOT having the PYSA. Clare does have a real-actual-existing PYSA. But, does Teresa?
There's only two thing that defines the PYSA from other Yoki Sensing Abilities, and they are the abilities to "move-react before the attack comes" and to "have such precision that one may allow-have an attack just barely miss her vital organs". And both of these two things are only known to us, thanks to Clare's real-actual-existing PYSA usage. We know absolutely nothing about the PYSA from Teresa. Also, Clare is the ONLY one seen able to do these two abilities, not Teresa not Galatea not Miata not anyone else, SOLELY-ONLY our Clare alone!
Quick summary about Irene being embarrassingly wrong, and that Teresa is pwning everyone not because of her "supposed PYSA", but rather because of her Supremacy of Power:
Irene says that each of their individual skills are superior to Teresa. WRONG! Really, Muscular Sophia is stronger than Teresa? HAHA, that's funny Irene! Irene is such an incorrect fool, as immediately after Irene makes this claim, Teresa disproves Irene as being dead wrong!
No YR and No PYSA Teresa BESTS No YR Priscilla (as Teresa couldn't sense Priscilla, she can't be using "her PYSA"), in fact Priscilla gives us the correct explanation: "Am I getting slower?, no... Teresa is getting FASTER!". But, how can Teresa be getting faster, while still not YR'ing? Simple, NO YR Teresa was taking it easy on Priscilla, and once Priscilla shown herself more capable than all other Claymores, Teresa no longer took it easy on Priscilla, which was far too much for Priscilla, Teresa was too powerful, too fast for poor Priscilla. Also, if 10% YR Teresa continued to be unable to read 70%+ YR Orcish Priscilla, then that means no PYSA, which means Teresa was pwning everyone due to her Supremacy of Power, not merely due to some godly "PYSA". And, again even with the PYSA, Teresa still needs the actual physical abilities, the actual Power, to react, otherwise, she'd be just like PYSA Clare. So, even if Teresa had and was using the PYSA, it was herself, her own Supremacy of Power, her physical abilities that enabled her to BEST Irene of the Quick Sword in speed, attack quickness, and strength, to BEST Muscular Sophia in Strength, to BEST Noel in speed agility and attack quickness, to BEST Priscilla in speed, attack quickness, and strength, and to BEST 70% YR Orcish Priscilla in speed, attack quickness, and strength. So much for Irene, the fool.
3. If Teresa had the PYSA, then why didn't she notice all the attacks in advance, why was Teresa caught off-guard by all the attacks of YR'ing Irene+Priscilla+Sophia+Noel ??? Why would a PYSA Teresa need Clare's screaming to notify her of attacks coming from behind her? Why was Teresa caught in such dire-dangerous positions within the battle with the 4 of them, only surviving due to her uber agility, speed, and strength ??? Does she have the PYSA or not ???
4. Off-topic, about Clare....
How could Human Child Clare warn Teresa before "Teresa's PYSA" could ??? How could Human Child Clare even follow the battle, let alone see and able to shout a warning to Teresa in enough time for Teresa to use it! How could Human Child Clare truly Sense the Yoki itself and recognize its signature from Priscilla? Clare is truly a mystery, and therefore all of her powers and abilities could indeed be her own, and not merely Teresa's... as many think.
I think Irene realizes that she has vastly underestimated/misread Teresa. She states as much when she lay bleeding and motionless on a bridge, realizing that Teresa has fought them without utilizing any of her Yoma power. We don't know for certain, as the text has not been explicit in the matter. However, it's possible that Teresa can predict her foes opponents through their flow of youki. In addition, as HK hypothesizes, she may very well be inherently stronger, faster, smarter and more skilled than the other warriors.
We're going somewhat into the mechanics of a Claymore but we don't know if it's the Yoma or the human part that provides a warrior's unique ability. If the former, then it stands to reason that Clare's ability to read youki flow comes from Teresa's flesh.
While the topic is hard to prove, I think Teresa does have some sort of PSYA. Now is it as useful as people make it out to be, maybe not. I think we may be overestimating the usefulness. As we seen from Clare, Clare needs to focus on a target to use it and its not something that's 360deg and always active. That would make things much harder when fighting multiple opponents.
This line by Teresa herself is proof enough for me though.
(Teresa fighting YR Priscilla)
"There's so much yoma power coming from every part of her body, I can't read the flow." ~ Teresa (Chapter 22, Page 26ish)
Why would she be bothering to read "the flow" if she wasn't using some sort of PYSA.?