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Translations: Gintama 515 (2)
Rules and Conditions:
1. Shunsui can't use bankai. The battle would end to quickly if that happened .
Besides we don't know what it does.
I think Starrk would win without any interference from anyone else. Starrk 1000 cero's move would probably win the battle for him. Even though it might seem like Shunsui was playing around win he was dodging Starrk cero's, I don't think that's the case. Ukitake wouldn't have come to Shunsui's aid if he wasn't in trouble. Ukitake has faith in Shunsui's abilities:
Also Shunsui was going to eventually use his bankai:http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/363/03/
Shunsui's ability is great, but he can't control which games he uses, since sword chooses them. Not only that, but his opponent can use his power against him. If Starrk keeps at a distance there's not much Shunsui can do against him.
Last edited by En Yang Ji; September 28, 2009 at 01:16 PM.
I don't get it, didn't shunsui already win? Even though shunsui cannot control the games, he was not really using them when starrk got the cero on his ass. We also cannot confirm for sure whether kyoraku could ahve avoided on his own the barrage of cero's.
Kyoraku was able to keep up with starrks movements even though starrk had already released, otherwise he would not have been able to damage starrk even with the games. I think kyoraku takes this one as it was shown in the manga.
It's true that Shunsui won in the manga, but it was a circumstantial win. Shunsui with shikai, is about the same level as a released Starrk.
I don't think Shunsui's shunpo would be enough to avoid the 1000 cero move. Even if Shunsui's shunpo is good he could barely avoid Starrk's ceros.
Also on a side note on shunsui's speed and melee skills...even if he said blcak and did great damage, he still found an opening and managed to land a hit...he needed to be fast enough for that,cero dodging fast enough
Last edited by benelori; September 28, 2009 at 02:22 PM.
- The only game that negates damage is Ironi, the rest allow Shunsui or his opponent to damage the other according to the game.
- Shunsui probably used Shunpo at close range. I doubt it isn't something Starrk couldn't do, considering he got behind ukitake without him noticing. Even with the speed Shunsui demonstrated when he slashed Starrk fatally, it probably still wouldn't be enough to dodge the 1000 cero move. The width of the attack is considerably large and Starrk can keep firing ceros continuously
Shunsui won this fight with tricks and deception. The first two cheap shots he took failed completely, but the third time he waited for the right moment to strike, Stark just used his most powerful attack( I guess it is?) on Love and Rose and owned them, and was about to finish them off and then he stepped in. Stark thought Shunsui was down and out for the count, and was focusing solely on Love and Rose. Plus, when Shunsui said black, not only did he catch him off guard by throwing his haori, Stark was also distracted by his flashbacks. It was just like when Stark got hit by Love's Tengumaru. Love even said Stark is the type to be shaken by things.....
Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying Shunsui couldn't defeat him without tricks, but the fact that he used tricks and used attacks which draw people into games doesn't create huge gap between Shunsui and Stark. This fight wasn't like Ichigonator vs Ulq or Soifon vs Ggio Vega, is what I mean lol. Stark's still pretty strong, Shunsui's just the type to be able to defeat his opponents through strategy and tricks, he doesn't have to bring out the big guns and overpower them.
Last edited by exacta; September 28, 2009 at 04:00 PM.
The recent chapters just made it blatantly clear who's the stronger of the two, but I suppose it's fun to keep going and create things for the fun of it.
Last edited by Rainl; September 28, 2009 at 04:06 PM.
Another thing, starrk is a smart dude and pretty much figured out the games shunsui was playing fairly fast. It's not like he was attacked by a ninja in his sleep lol(except for the kageoni thing for which he barely took damage anyways). I would also think that starrk(or any other enemy for that matter) not knowing 100% of the rules of the games just adds up to the power of kyoraku and his zampakuto. In all fairness, this was a fight, not a game lol. It's not like starrk told kyoraku how every aspect of his power worked before using it, kyoraku had to find the hard way.
Damnit, I voted without reading the description.
Yeah I think, had this been a 1 on 1 with no interruptions, Shunsui would have had to use his bankai to win. I doubt he would have been able to hide in Starrk's shadow had starrk been focusing on him instead of the two vizards.
Moreover, forget the 1,000 ceros, those wolves were like the most amazing attack I've seen in BLEACH so far. The wolves are unavoidable are create pretty powerful explosions. It's evident that both Rose and Love would have had to use their bankais had Shunsui not stepped in, and they are both captain level shinigami with hollow masks. I don't think anyone here would argue that Shunsui is stronger than both Love and Rose.
El Samurai Guapo brings up a good point, that Starrk's wolves are a really good technique. Think about it, living bombs that move at high-speed and follow their target anywhere, reform when destroyed, and cause an explosion on a large enough scale to significantly wound two Captain-level Vizards.
It's a perfect attack that can't be countered effectively, or dodged (maybe one wolf, but not a whole pack).
So why didn't Starrk use that on Shunsui? I'm sure that attack would have eventually killed Rose and Love had Shunsui not stepped in, and I'm certain that's the case for Shunsui as well.
Did the wolves wear out? Possible, since there's no indication that they reform after exploding. But why didn't Starrk summon more?
My theory is that Katen Kyokotsu's game did not allow the use of those wolves, so that Starrk had to play by Shunsui's rules...which eventually led to his loss.
So the victor can't be conclusively determined, since it's based on circumstances. If Katen Kyokotsu is in the mood, Starrk cannot access his strongest attack and it's game over for him. If Katen Kyokotsu isn't in the mood, it's game over for Shunsui.
There is no clear victor for this fight.
Well, it is possible kyoraku could have used the shadow thing considering it simply required him to step on starrks shadow. Also, the extent to which the rules applied could change things considerably. Who knows what effect the wolves would have had had starrk no said a color lol.
On another note, the whole wolves and sword thing made out of starrks soul was the full extent on his power, that was the ultimate trick he had. On the other hand, kyoraku still had bankai. In other words, starrk was already fighting at 100% while kyoraku could still get 5-10 times stronger with bankai.
And we never got to see Stark use the wolves on Shunsui, and just seeing him shoot 1000 ceros would be nice. In the end, Shunsui would likely win, of course. But still.....
kkck, one of the rules and conditions in the first post was that Shunsui couldn't use Bankai. Since we don't know what his bankai does we can't use that to speculate on the battle's outcome, so I didn't take that into account.
Sure, Starrk was going all out, but just because he was and Shunsui wasn't doesn't mean that Shunsui is automatically stronger. We saw that the game was "cheap" according to a lot of people, making small cuts large and vice versa depending on something like color, which is usually completely unrelated to a battle.
I agree with exacta that the battle was determined by Shunsui's strategy and the skill his shikai gave him, but what if it wasn't? What if Shunsui was unlucky when he fought Starrk and his sword wasn't in the mood? Would he have still won without going Bankai (one of the conditions of this fight)?
IMO, no, because Starrk's wolves have been shown to be unstoppable. Or at least, there's no way we know of that can stop them. Without his Shikai ability, Shunsui would not be able to circumvent those wolves and he would eventually be killed.