Great Cycle ' Sannin and Itachi '

[Jinnobi]

Whine at the databook, not me. Nevermind Itachi has no partners and when you hear Frog Song, your mind is paralyzed

Same databook that claims Ameratsu is unavoidable, and Jiraiya's swamp jutsu is impossible to escape, eh?

[kisame123]

^^^ I would believe the above things that you just said, but the Databooks, which are written to answer questions and rectify any confusion in the manga, never state there being a second MS genjutsu.

Everything about the genjutsu used on Bee by Sasuke screams Tsyukiyomi, it was the real deal.

well... as I've pointed it out, the manga clearly shows that Itachi used an unspecified genjutsu via mangekyou and then resorted to the "special genjutsu" or the "tsukiyomi". just because there isn't any specified mangekyou-derived genjutsu other than tsukiyomi, doesn't meant that one cannot use a normal genjutsu with the mangekyou. the only difference between a normal genjutsu casted by the sharingan and one by the mangekyou would be the strength and sheer effect, in other words it will be superior. however, the "tsukiyomi" is a special genjutsu technique separate from the mangekyou, but can only be used once the mangekyou is unlocked.

as for the "screams out tsukiyomi" part, if that were true, why hasn't it been verbally stated in the manga like amaterasu, susanoo, or even the techniques derived from amaterasu such as enton: kagutsuchi? when the tsukiyomi was broken the first time by sasuke, it was stated verbally and was even stressed to the point where the manga narrator "screams" it out. in this case, however, the manga itself does not give any special attention to the idea of tsukiyomi being broken.

[Delbi]

Whine at the databook, not me. Nevermind Itachi has no partners and when you hear Frog Song, your mind is paralyzed

Where was it stated one's mind is specifically paralyzed by the Frog Song? I thought the body was just paralyzed, after all, the Pain bodies could still speak.

In any event, its a Genjutsu, and Itachi not only has a Sharigan, but he is the best Genjutsu user in the manga. I really don't understand why people think he can't break or see through the genjutsu. The rational of it's delivered by sound, thus the Sharigan can't see through it is wrong, because the jutsu still has optical illusions that the Sharigan can see. Not to mention, the Sharigan would be able to see the chakra filled sound waves.

[Lightsnake]

Same databook that claims Ameratsu is unavoidable, and Jiraiya's swamp jutsu is impossible to escape, eh?

Can we say 'misdirection?' And no, not the same databook. Databook 3 has the Frog Song info

---

Where was it stated one's mind is specifically paralyzed by the Frog Song? I thought the body was just paralyzed, after all, the Pain bodies could still speak.

As someone else pointed out to you earlier, this was because Nagato himself was not caught by it. The bodies were. And Jiraiya said himself it paralyzes the nerves and mind

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/379/04/

In any event, its a Genjutsu, and Itachi not only has a Sharigan, but he is the best Genjutsu user in the manga. I really don't understand why people think he can't break or see through the genjutsu. The rational of it's delivered by sound, thus the Sharigan can't see through it is wrong, because the jutsu still has optical illusions that the Sharigan can see. Not to mention, the Sharigan would be able to see the chakra filled sound waves.

I swear, are you capable of admitting Itachi has ANY weakness? The Frog Song is stated as the strongest Genjutsu that's totally unknown to Itachi. The Rinnegan, the most powerful Doujutsu was apparently caught by it.
The rational IS that it's delivered by sound. His Sharingan has nothing to do with it. So he's 'the best Genjutsu user,' this automatically means he can break everything? Including a Genjutsu stronger than he's ever seen that paralyzes his mind immediately?

I see we've found something that can take Itachi down easily.

[Jinnobi]

As someone else pointed out to you earlier, this was because Nagato himself was not caught by it. The bodies were. And Jiraiya said himself it paralyzes the nerves and mind

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/379/04/

Yet Jiraiya was not surprised at all that the Pain bodies were talking to him, even though they were supposedly paralyzed, mind and body. How did Pain's mouth move to speak? Why was Jiraiya talking to Pain if his "mind" was paralyzed? Does it mean 100% paralysis, or a lesser degree?

I swear, are you capable of admitting Itachi has ANY weakness?

You're taking this rather personally.

The Frog Song is stated as the strongest Genjutsu

Source?

that's totally unknown to Itachi. The Rinnegan, the most powerful Doujutsu was apparently caught by it.

In what way is it the "most powerful?" I want specific details as to how it is the most powerful, not some DB entry that says IT IS DA MOST POWERFUL LOL.

The rational IS that it's delivered by sound. His Sharingan has nothing to do with it. So he's 'the best Genjutsu user,' this automatically means he can break everything? Including a Genjutsu stronger than he's ever seen that paralyzes his mind immediately?

Genjutsu delivered by sound still affects the targets mind in the same manner as one delivered by sight. Since genjutsu use is aided by the sharigan, it is relevant to the discussion. Assuming that Frog Song is stronger than Tsukiyomi is purely based off assumption. I already addressed the paralysis issue above.

I see we've found something that can take Itachi down easily.

You're probably the only one thinking this, but you have a right to your own opinion.

[Lightsnake]

Yet Jiraiya was not surprised at all that the Pain bodies were talking to him, even though they were supposedly paralyzed, mind and body. How did Pain's mouth move to speak? Why was Jiraiya talking to Pain if his "mind" was paralyzed? Does it mean 100% paralysis, or a lesser degree?

The databook says the mind and nerves are completely paralyzed.
And Pain was able to speak because Nagato himself was still able to communicate.
Jiraiya was talking as well and didn't even seem to respond. He already knew something was weird with Pain.

You're taking this rather personally.

When I throw a fit like you did in the last topic, then you get to say this

Source?

Data and fan books.

In what way is it the "most powerful?" I want specific details as to how it is the most powerful, not some DB entry that says IT IS DA MOST POWERFUL LOL.

"I don't want direct canon if it contradicts my views!" is your argument then?
It's the most powerful because, as stated, it shuts down the body and mind of the target completely. Hell, it isn't even possible for humans to learn

Genjutsu delivered by sound still affects the targets mind in the same manner as one delivered by sight. Since genjutsu use is aided by the sharigan, it is relevant to the discussion. Assuming that Frog Song is stronger than Tsukiyomi is purely based off assumption. I already addressed the paralysis issue above.

No, you didn't. You whined about it. That's not addressing it. Saying "But Pain didn't..." isn't an argument because Nagato himself wasn't affected. The bodies were paralyzed (well, that's up for debate if Nagato couldn't just snap them out).
And based off assumption? Tsukuyomi can be resisted and broken. If one is unaffected by pain, they'd be fine as well.
Frog Song just shuts you down into total paralysis the moment you hear it. You can't move, you can't act, your mind is even shut down

You're probably the only one thinking this, but you have a right to your own opinion.

The 'only one?' Most people seem to think so. Why am I not surprised that you, who relentlessly fanboys Itachi, doesn't think so?

[Jinnobi]

The databook says the mind and nerves are completely paralyzed.
And Pain was able to speak because Nagato himself was still able to communicate.
Jiraiya was talking as well and didn't even seem to respond. He already knew something was weird with Pain.

The DB uses plenty of hyperbole and is outright incorrect in places. Anything taken from the DB should be backed by secondary sources. Your full reliance upon the DB as a source suggests you have little basis other than what is likely hype.

Nagato may not have been effected, but that doesn't mean Pain's mouth could move. He was paralyzed. The only explanation is that the paralysis isn't complete.

When I throw a fit like you did in the last topic, then you get to say this

Using that logic, I can say anything I want as well.

Data and fan books.

Any source besides the databook?

"I don't want direct canon if it contradicts my views!" is your argument then?

No. I want details. I want to see in what ways the Rinnegan is more potent than the Sharigan. I accept the fact that it's more powerful: but what does more powerful mean? What does "power" mean in this sense?

It's the most powerful because, as stated, it shuts down the body and mind of the target completely. Hell, it isn't even possible for humans to learn

Tsukiyomi can instantly kill someone. You'll have to do better.

No, you didn't. You whined about it. That's not addressing it. Saying "But Pain didn't..." isn't an argument because Nagato himself wasn't affected. The bodies were paralyzed (well, that's up for debate if Nagato couldn't just snap them out).

Once again: Pain was talking. PAIN'S MOUTH WAS MOVING. If his body was completely, 100% paralyzed, he wouldn't be talking.

And based off assumption? Tsukuyomi can be resisted and broken.

No, it can't. Manga fact, I linked it. Look it up.

If one is unaffected by pain, they'd be fine as well.

If one is deaf, Frog Song doesn't work. See what I did there?

Frog Song just shuts you down into total paralysis the moment you hear it. You can't move, you can't act, your mind is even shut down

You're assuming it's "total" paralysis, yet Jiraiya was talking to Pain under the influence of Frog Song. If his "mind" was totally paralyzed, he wouldn't be able to understand what Jiraiya was saying. At that point, Jiraiya didn't know the secret - he didn't know Pain was a meat puppet.

The 'only one?' Most people seem to think so.

Poll results disagree.

Why am I not surprised that you, who relentlessly fanboys Itachi, doesn't think so?

pain da best, amirite??!

[hakuthehedgehog]

Genjutsu can be manipulated according to the user's will, so it's not an absurd to say that Jiraya let Pain use his mind just to talk, but not to make any other action, such has use chakra, since he wanted to talk to him, in the same fashion Itachi can set the time for his TS and the illusion's contents.
I think Jiraya whould take this one: he could hide underground and make the whole battlefield a gigantic swamp and have shima or fuakusu slowly attacking itachi and oro, or making a frog song that whould OHKO orochimaru for sure and, if nothing else, paralize Itachi so that he can kill/subdue him.

[Lightsnake]

The DB uses plenty of hyperbole and is outright incorrect in places. Anything taken from the DB should be backed by secondary sources. Your full reliance upon the DB as a source suggests you have little basis other than what is likely hype.

Nagato may not have been effected, but that doesn't mean Pain's mouth could move. He was paralyzed. The only explanation is that the paralysis isn't complete.

The bodies are corpses controlled by chakra. They themselves were paralyzed body and mind. Just so happens their mind is elsewhere.
And again, notice Jiraiya never responds to what they say.
Love your brilliant, brilliant argument. "The databook is wrong when it disagrees with me."
How dare I use direct canon

Using that logic, I can say anything I want as well.

You'll be a hypocrite, but sure.

Any source besides the databook?

Can you read? Did the miss the 'and fan' there?
Again, love how your argument becomes "When it disagrees with me, it's wrong.

No. I want details. I want to see in what ways the Rinnegan is more potent than the Sharigan. I accept the fact that it's more powerful: but what does more powerful mean? What does "power" mean in this sense?

"Sure it's more powerful, but, uhhhhh....where's it say more...POWERFUL!?!"
I see you can randomly skew the definitions to your liking.I mean, sure it originated all of the jutsu around, sure it's the most powerful, sure the one with can use every power there is.
But let's ignore that when it hurts out argument

Tsukiyomi can instantly kill someone. You'll have to do better.

Only if that person's body can't withstand the mental strain from so much pain/trauma in an instant.
Paralyzing all of someone should kill them instantly as well as their heart and brain would shut down

Once again: Pain was talking. PAIN'S MOUTH WAS MOVING. If his body was completely, 100% paralyzed, he wouldn't be talking.

What part of 'the bodies are puppets' does your brain keep missing?

No, it can't. Manga fact, I linked it. Look it up.

despite it being done twice. Kakashi said it couldn't be resisted because it happens too quick, which fused chakra partners deal with.

If one is deaf, Frog Song doesn't work. See what I did there?

Well, no duh. If one is blind the Tsukuyomi doesn't work. If one doesn't breathe, C4 doesn't work. If one has no circulatory system, poison doesn't work. It one has no soul, the Death God doesn't work. If one doesn't bleed, Hidan's ritual doesn't work.

You're assuming it's "total" paralysis, yet Jiraiya was talking to Pain under the influence of Frog Song. If his "mind" was totally paralyzed, he wouldn't be able to understand what Jiraiya was saying. At that point, Jiraiya didn't know the secret - he didn't know Pain was a meat puppet.

and Jiraiya didn't even seem to hear Pain. He just carries on talking how he thought Nagato would be the messiah.
And yeah, it's total paralysis because that's outright stated. I mean, let's just ignore that Jiraiya ALREADY knew Pain's bodies were weird and had something strange going on. They couldn't move and that was enough for him.

Poll results disagree.

Try going to a board like Narutofan.

pain da best, amirite??!

Great response.

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Genjutsu can be manipulated according to the user's will, so it's not an absurd to say that Jiraya let Pain use his mind just to talk, but not to make any other action, such has use chakra, since he wanted to talk to him, in the same fashion Itachi can set the time for his TS and the illusion's contents.
I think Jiraya whould take this one: he could hide underground and make the whole battlefield a gigantic swamp and have shima or fuakusu slowly attacking itachi and oro, or making a frog song that whould OHKO orochimaru for sure and, if nothing else, paralize Itachi so that he can kill/subdue him.

Just to correct one detail: Fukasaku and Shima are the Frog Song users

[hakuthehedgehog]

I know, that's why I put the "or".

[Jinnobi]

Try going to a board like Narutofan.

This explains a lot.

I'm done arguing with you, because it's obvious that you're stuck in your own way of thinking.

By the way, yesterday Itachi was only 2 votes ahead of Jiraiya. I guess today reveals who's arguments were more convincing.

[Lightsnake]

Of all the multiple explanations for Itachi being ahead, you somehow decide your arguments were the best? And yeah, somehow you decide that I'm the one stuck in my ways when you are the one who decides the databook doesn't count when you're disagreed with?

[Delbi]

I swear, are you capable of admitting Itachi has ANY weakness? The Frog Song is stated as the strongest Genjutsu that's totally unknown to Itachi. The Rinnegan, the most powerful Doujutsu was apparently caught by it.
The rational IS that it's delivered by sound. His Sharingan has nothing to do with it. So he's 'the best Genjutsu user,' this automatically means he can break everything? Including a Genjutsu stronger than he's ever seen that paralyzes his mind immediately?

I see we've found something that can take Itachi down easily.

Itachi, first of all has the single strongest Genjutsu that is, which is the one delivered by Sussano and the Sword of Tosoku, so he has encounted stronger illusions than Frog Song, not to mention, Tsyukiyomi, which is said to kill people and put them in coma's. Is the Frog Song capable of doing that? If it did kill people, Jiraiya would have never stabbed the bodies to death.

Genjutsu is his biggest strength, he's the best at it, I fail to see how he'd be defeated by one then. It paralyzing his mind doesn't mean shit, all genjutsu affect one's mind, I don't see why given the Sharigan's abilities with genjutsu, on top of Itachi's already great abilities, he'd fall for it. And, just becasue the Rinnegan is the strongest Doujutsu, doesn't mean its the best at resisting or casting genjutsu, the Sharigan beats it in that departement.

The Sharigan see's through genjutsu. Any illusion cast before a powerful Sharigan user is pointless, especially one like Itachi.

So this whole thing that this will take down Itachi easily, is nothing but speculation on your part.

The key to taking down Itachi is outlasting him. His one and only weakness is his low stamina. That's how you defeat him, you outlast him, or you simply attack him with something he can't possibly stand up against over and over again.

He was hyped up to be one of the strongest ninja ever, I fail to see why he would be easily defeated by a genjutsu, something he is the best at doing and defending against.

[Lightsnake]

Itachi, first of all has the single strongest Genjutsu that is, which is the one delivered by Sussano and the Sword of Tosoku, so he has encounted stronger illusions than Frog Song, not to mention, Tsyukiyomi, which is said to kill people and put them in coma's. Is the Frog Song capable of doing that? If it did kill people, Jiraiya would have never stabbed the bodies to death.

Stronger than Frog Song? Not according to canon. The genjutsu of the Sword of Totsuka is incidental: the power is that it seals the enemy. The genjutsu itself is never mentioned as stronger.
And again, freezing one's body and mind could cause their body to shut down. As someone else pointed out, the users control the degree.

Genjutsu is his biggest strength, he's the best at it, I fail to see how he'd be defeated by one then. It paralyzing his mind doesn't mean shit, all genjutsu affect one's mind, I don't see why given the Sharigan's abilities with genjutsu, on top of Itachi's already great abilities, he'd fall for it. And, just becasue the Rinnegan is the strongest Doujutsu, doesn't mean its the best at resisting or casting genjutsu, the Sharigan beats it in that departement.

I really love how ridiculous this is. It'[s his biggest strength, DESPITE Frog strong being stronger than anything he himself uses and delivered in a different why.
I also want proof the Sharingan>The Rinnegan at anything. Direct proof. Now.
Proof Itachi can break something as strong as Frog Song, too, when his entire nervous system and mind is paralyzed. Sorry, Delbi, but "He's real good at Genjutsu and has the Sharingan, despite it being useless as they're not his ears" means nothing. Frog Song beat someone stronger than Itachi, with much better eyes.
all evidence is against you here. Can you ever just accept that maybe, JUST maybe, Itachi might not have a solution? That maybe someone can beat him with a move? An eight hundred year old Senjutsu/Genjutsu is not something Itachi has experience with. So where's the proof? A totally different kind of Genjutsu where Itachi's Mind is paralyzed, meaning he'll be incapable of it. The description even says any victim will be rendered helpless when they hear it, leaving them open to the finishing blow

The Sharigan see's through genjutsu. Any illusion cast before a powerful Sharigan user is pointless, especially one like Itachi.

No limits fallacy much? Itachi's upper limit shown is Kurenai and Sasuke's Genjutsu. Frog Song is much stronger and worked on someone stronger with far stronger Doujutsu.
What's that tell us? And again, it's not just an illusion, it freezes the body and mind and there's no known or seen defense.

So this whole thing that this will take down Itachi easily, is nothing but speculation on your part.

Show me some evidence he'll break out beyond "But he's good with Genjutsu."
Give me some evidence he can handle something to Frog Song's level. Giv eme some evidence he can handle the auditory genjutsu that, once heard, immediately paralyzes one's body and mind.
Hell, the databook entry states the victim is helpless in the barrier unless the user allows otherwise and open to the finishing blow. The translation says:
A musical scale passed down through Myoubokuzan, is sung by two or more toads. Those that hear this melody are lured into the most powerful Genjutsu world that binds the nerves and mind. Because it takes many long years to learn this song the only toads that can sing it are the married Sen-toads. In the genjutsu world any enemy is cornered from all directions by 4 giant toads and trapped in a barrier, helpless and immobile. The four toads won't move until given the order from the user. The only thing left to do is put the finishing blow on them in the real world.

The key to taking down Itachi is outlasting him. His one and only weakness is his low stamina. That's how you defeat him, you outlast him, or you simply attack him with something he can't possibly stand up against over and over again.

Amazing. You just admitted that ITachi is invincible except for outlasting him? No, Pain can't just kill him with superior abilities and neither can Jiraiya.
Frog Song will work. Prove otherwise. The databook is against you. Nothing hints he can break something so powerful

He was hyped up to be one of the strongest ninja ever, I fail to see why he would be easily defeated by a genjutsu, something he is the best at doing and defending against.

Oh, come on. Someone stronger, with a better Doujutsu fell to it.
And guess what? Kurenai is also 'best at Genjutsu,' she still fell to it. Why is the same not true of Itachi suddenly? Orochimaru is a master at Genjutsu, he was still caught by it. Sasuke, too. The Sharingan's Genjutsu is also distinct from others to boot given it's a purely visual one.
Why are you so incapable of admitting Itachi can fall victim to anything? You claim you're equal with you defenses, but all you seem to do is defend the Uchiha and make up excuses for them against things that are out of their league. Why would he be defeated Because it's a stronger Genjutsu than anything he has, that stopped a stronger opponent than Itachi, that he has no familiarity whatsoever with.

Pain and Jiraiya are also hyped as some of the strongest ninja ever. Check that, Pain was hyped up as a borderline messiah. So is Orochimaru. And Sarutobi, and Hashirama and Madara and Minato, and the Third Kazekage even.
Why does being strong somehow mean "will get out of everything ever?"
Itachi has weaknesses. If he got hit with C4 or scratched by sasori, he'd still die. There's no reason to believe something as strong as Frog Song would fail. Or even Swamp of the Underworld. Jiraiya has lots of ways to stop Itachi. The reverse is also true. Hence why there'd be an actual fight beyond them, instead of the God Mode Sue you make Itachi into.

[Lightsnake]

"The databook states it as the strongest Genjutsu. LOL at anyone who takes msot recent canon seriously."
Do you have an actual argument? You're ignoring or changing things to suit your needs. It's absurd.