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View Poll Results: Last Man Standing

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  • Orochimaru

    12 8.05%
  • Jiraiya

    64 42.95%
  • Itachi

    73 48.99%
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Thread: Great Cycle ' Sannin and Itachi '

  1. #316
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: Great Cycle ' Sannin and Itachi '

    In other words:
    "Past databooks say things with hyperbole and have been proven wrong. When the most recent canon says something and it disagrees with me, it must be wrong."

  2. #317
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member kisame123's Avatar
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    Re: Great Cycle ' Sannin and Itachi '

    "If the left eye posesses the most powerful genjutsu... then the right holds the most powerful physical attack." -Zetsu

    ( http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/ch...9/page001.html )

    in plain simple language, Tsukuyomi is the strongest, most powerful genjutsu and rightfully so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lightsnake View Post
    The databook>Zetsu.
    No reason to suspect Zetsu even knows what Frog Song is.
    I've taken the time to look up databook III for you, please return the favor by reading about the Magen: Gamarinshou technique and tell me where does it say that it is the most powerful genjutsu or more at least more powerful than tsukuyomi?

    Demonic Illusion: Toad Confrontation Chant (魔幻・蝦蟇臨唱, Magen: Gamarinshou)
    Genjutsu, Senjutsu, No rank, Offensive, Supplementary, All ranges
    Users: Shima, Fukasaku

    When it reaches your ears, you're the prisoner of the demonic illusion
    A one-hear certain kill vocal duet!!

    [picture of Fukasaku and Shima singing together, while sitting on Jiraiya's shoulder]
    ↑On both shoulders of "Sage Mode" Jiraiya are the "genjutsu" singing married toad couple...!! After several centuries of married life, the exquisite harmony of the Two Great Sage Toads distorts even the airspace!!

    The person who hears it is lured into a "genjutsu world that binds the mind"
    When two or more toads come together and sing the secret musical scale passed down on Mt. Myouboku, the person who hears the harmony is lured into a "genjutsu world that binds the mind". Because learning it requires many long years of training, the husband and wife Great Toad Sage are the only one's with the skills to perform it.


    [picture of the sound reaching Animal Realm's ears and him feeling the effects of the genjutsu]
    ↑The "Toad Confrontation Chant" only has to reach the target's sense of hearing to be a success. On the other hand, because it uses sound, it also has a weakness in that it gives away the users' whereabouts

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    [picture of Human Realm, Preta Realm, and Animal Realm caught in the barrier]
    ←↓Even if there are several hundred targets, they are completely disconnected from each other!!

    The person whose ears the "Toad Confrontation Chant" reaches has both mind and body completely sealed between the hands of giant unmoving toads!!
    [picture of the four giant toads holding the barrier between their hands]

    With four toads standing motionless on all sides, both dream and reality become bound by hand and foot!!

    Inside the genjutsu world, the target is surrounded North, East, South, and West, by giant toads, imprisoning them in a barrier. The four unmoving toads won't lift the complete binding until the user gives the order. All that is left to do is to strike the finishing blow in the real world.

    [picture of Jiraiya stabbing the immobile bodies of Pain]
    →Mt. Myouboku's secret stone swords³ are driven into the targets' hearts like a wedge. The targets are finally released into the realm of the dead.

    ¹ When written as 輪唱, "rinshou" means "to sing in canon".
    ² Sage Mode (仙人モード, Sennin Mōdo)
    ³ Stone Sword (石剣, Ishiken)

    ( you can see for yourself here http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45246 )
    Last edited by kisame123; January 11, 2010 at 06:56 PM.

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  4. #318
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: Great Cycle ' Sannin and Itachi '

    The databook>Zetsu.
    No reason to suspect Zetsu even knows what Frog Song is.

  5. #319
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Oathencrantz's Avatar
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    Re: Great Cycle ' Sannin and Itachi '

    "lol @ Frog Song being superior to Tsukiyomi. Does anyone take this guy seriously?"

    Yea, in this case I do, why not? It can be debated which is the better genjutsu. Reasonable enough for me. But all this "rah rah rah the frog song can't work on a sharingan user" is rubbish to me. There's no reason to think it shouldn't, especially since it's audible.

    Food for thought: Imagine Jiraiya and Minato being in the same war; Jiraiya using the Frog Song and Minato picking off the binded with Hiraishin? Pretty monstrous if you ask me.

  6. #320
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Baron Hugenstein's Avatar
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    Re: Great Cycle ' Sannin and Itachi '

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperSaiyaMan View Post
    LOL. Someone doubting canon and the databook since it doesn't agree with him.

    Look at the Frog Song and Tsukuyomi (you can't even spell it right) side by side, and the Frog Song is the superior genjutsu.
    Both are incredibly strong, but the Frog song needs Pa and Ma and prep time as well, since there needs to be sync between them. Tsukoyumi is much faster, can be casted via eyesight, and can only be canceled by a Bijuu-level Chakra partner within the same body()[in theory, and which Jiraiya doesn't have].

    In terms of potency, both are somewhat equal; however, in terms of practicality, Tsukoyumi is faster, therefore better.

    And Jiraiya needs his eyes with him...he can't look away from Itachi.

    Also, it doesn't matter how you it is spelled: Tsukoyumi or Tsukiyomi, since these terms are translated from Japanese or Chinese, therefore more than one spelling exists[for example, Kakuzu and Kakuza are the same person]


    Quote Originally Posted by Lightsnake View Post
    The databook>Zetsu.
    No reason to suspect Zetsu even knows what Frog Song is.
    DataBooks are to be used as complementary to what Characters say in the manga itself. DB is not to be used on its own, since it is vague most times.[Ex. if you were to trust the DB, Sasuke is a god of speed and nobody can compete with him, not even Raikage in his V2 mode.]
    Last edited by Baron Hugenstein; January 11, 2010 at 06:49 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

  7. #321
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Oathencrantz's Avatar
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    Re: Great Cycle ' Sannin and Itachi '

    Quote Originally Posted by sarry View Post
    Both are incredibly strong, but the Frog song needs Pa and Ma and prep time as well, since there needs to be sync between them. Tsukoyumi is much faster, can be casted via eyesight, and can only be canceled by a Bijuu-level Chakra partner within the same body()[in theory, and which Jiraiya doesn't have].

    In terms of potency, both are somewhat equal; however, in terms of practicality, Tsukoyumi is faster, therefore better.

    And Jiraiya needs his eyes with him...he can't look away from Itachi.

    Also, it doesn't matter how you it is spelled: Tsukoyumi or Tsukiyomi, since these terms are translated from Japanese or Chinese, therefore more than one spelling exists[for example, Kakuzu and Kakuza are the same person]
    It depends on what context they're used in. In a one on one, Tsukuyomi is better, but in a a war (or where there's multiple enemies) where you've got your comrads' support, the Frog Song is better.
    Last edited by Oathencrantz; January 11, 2010 at 07:09 PM.

  8. #322
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: Great Cycle ' Sannin and Itachi '

    Quote Originally Posted by sarry View Post
    Both are incredibly strong, but the Frog song needs Pa and Ma and prep time as well, since there needs to be sync between them. Tsukoyumi is much faster, can be casted via eyesight, and can only be canceled by a Bijuu-level Chakra partner within the same body()[in theory, and which Jiraiya doesn't have].

    In terms of potency, both are somewhat equal; however, in terms of practicality, Tsukoyumi is faster, therefore better.

    And Jiraiya needs his eyes with him...he can't look away from Itachi.
    the main issue was Ma's embarrassment at singing the duet. They perform it quite quickly. And the eyesight if also Tsukuyomi's weakness, as Jiraiya is smart enough not to look him in the eye now (and to dispel an old rumor, Jiraiya merely says Genjutsu isn't his forte. Meaning he doesn't USE it, not that he's helpless against it)
    And when does Bee say he needed a Bijuu level partner? He said he just needed a partner period. If Shima and Fukasaku are fused to Jiraiya, they can snap him out instantly as their chakra is connected.
    You can avoid Tsukuyomi by not looking Itachi in the eye...the same isn't true for the Frog Song (And given Shima and Fukasaku are Jiraiya's summons, using them is very allowable)
    Quote Quote:
    Also, it doesn't matter how you it is spelled: Tsukoyumi or Tsukiyomi, since these terms are translated from Japanese or Chinese, therefore more than one spelling exists[for example, Kakuzu and Kakuza are the same person]
    <hr noshade size="1">


    DataBooks are to be used as complementary to what Characters say in the manga itself. DB is not to be used on its own, since it is vague most times.[Ex. if you were to trust the DB, Sasuke is a god of speed and nobody can compete with him, not even Raikage in his V2 mode.]
    This isn't vague, however. Zetsu is a fallible character who doesn't even know about FS...the databook is also written by Kishi

  9. #323
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Baron Hugenstein's Avatar
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    Re: Great Cycle ' Sannin and Itachi '

    Quote Originally Posted by Oathencrantz View Post
    It depends on what context they're used in. In a one on one, Tsukuyomi is better, but in a a war (or where there's multiple enemies) where you've got your comrads' support, the Frog Song is better.
    True, but there are no team battle nor there are any back-ups in the OP's details, it would depend on who fights who and if Itachi or Jiraiya use said jutsus in the end or beginning of the battle.

    Either way, it would likely be one on one.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lightsnake View Post
    the main issue was Ma's embarrassment at singing the duet. They perform it quite quickly. And the eyesight if also Tsukuyomi's weakness, as Jiraiya is smart enough not to look him in the eye now (and to dispel an old rumor, Jiraiya merely says Genjutsu isn't his forte. Meaning he doesn't USE it, not that he's helpless against it)
    Spoiler show

    A)If you read the pic in the spoilers that I have placed in this post, you'd find that it the frog song was delayed not because of Ma's embarrassment(that's one lame excuse, TBH) but because there has to be a perfect sync or harmony between Ma and Pa, which isn't easy as shown in the pic.

    B) If Jiraiya does not to look him in the eye, Jiraiya is as good as dead, because Itachi can use Amaterasu, and Jiraiya will be dead in seconds. And he can't use any replacement Jutsu because he isn't looking at Itachi, which is a requirement for any replacement Jutsu, as shown in these two pics
    Spoiler: First Row of Panels, i.e the 1st, 2nd and 3rd Panel show

    Spoiler: What Kakashi Says show

    Quote Quote:
    And when does Bee say he needed a Bijuu level partner? He said he just needed a partner period. If Shima and Fukasaku are fused to Jiraiya, they can snap him out instantly as their chakra is connected.
    You can avoid Tsukuyomi by not looking Itachi in the eye...the same isn't true for the Frog Song (And given Shima and Fukasaku are Jiraiya's summons, using them is very allowable)
    Tsukoyumi happens in seconds or to use the manga's words, Tsukoyumi is Instant,
    Spoiler show


    by the time Ma and Pa realize what is happening, Jiraiya is in a coma(if Itachi wants to).
    Jiraiya, to be able to cancel Tsukoyumi, needs a Bijuu who can see what Jiraiya sees and feels, otherwise Jiraiya cannot break the Genjutsu.
    Quote Quote:
    This isn't vague, however. Zetsu is a fallible character who doesn't even know about FS...the databook is also written by Kishi
    DB are vague and only re-tell what the manga says, just in other words:
    Case-In point
    Link
    Quote Originally Posted by from Tora-Chan
    [Godlike speed]
    Adding up to his innate talent, Orochimaru's strength — "cursed seal" included — granted him a power a normal shinobi could not even dream of. What one may find especially interesting is his speed, that has stood out ever since he was a genin. When that godlike speed is supported by Sharingan's reflexes, anyone standing before Sasuke is unworthy of existence.

    In a blink he's in front of his opponent, then a flash of sword...!! Before his speed, even Akatsuki members hold their breath in awe.

    [Tactics]
    Sasuke's excellent resourcefulness as a shinobi is particularly evident in his battle sense and tactical skills. During fights he observes his opponent and accurately sees through his abilities without losing his calm, then he correctly chooses the most effective means and ninjutsu to counter him among the rich variety of items he has in stock. Moreover, at times his resoluteness enables him to pick painful strategies in which he needs to get hurt in order to win against the enemy. All these characteristics make Sasuke a remarkable shinobi.
    According to the Databook, Sasuke is unstoppable and invincible.

    Databooks are not manga material, they only reword the facts that are stated in the manga, in a vague way. They are not to be used as proof or evidence.
    Last edited by Baron Hugenstein; January 11, 2010 at 09:42 PM.

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  11. #324
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: Great Cycle ' Sannin and Itachi '

    Quote Originally Posted by sarry View Post
    True, but there are no team battle nor there are any back-ups in the OP's details, it would depend on who fights who and if Itachi or Jiraiya use said jutsus in the end or beginning of the battle.

    Either way, it would likely be one on one.
    Summons are part of Jiraiya's arsenal as surely as genjutsu is part of Itachi's
    Quote Quote:
    Spoiler show

    A)If you read the pic in the spoilers that I have placed in this post, you'd find that it the frog song was delayed not because of Ma's embarrassment(that's one lame excuse, TBH) but because there has to be a perfect sync or harmony between Ma and Pa, which isn't easy as shown in the pic.
    They had no problem using it instantly against the Animal realm's summons in Konoha.
    But I'll admit I was wrong on that end
    Quote Quote:
    B) If Jiraiya does not to look him in the eye, Jiraiya is as good as dead, because Itachi can use Amaterasu, and Jiraiya will be dead in seconds. And he can't use any replacement Jutsu because he isn't looking at Itachi, which is a requirement for any replacement Jutsu, as shown in these two pics
    Because 'don't look into Itachi's eye' equates to 'stand perfectly still, don't move and don't fight?
    And where you getting that Itachi spams MS like nobody's business? It's not in his character to do so at all. Jiraiya can also seal Amaterasu and it's not like Pa and Ma wouldn't warn him if they were there.
    Or he could obscure Itachi's sight like he did to Pain
    Quote Quote:
    Spoiler: First Row of Panels, i.e the 1st, 2nd and 3rd Panel show

    Spoiler: What Kakashi Says show


    Tsukoyumi happens in seconds or to use the manga's words, Tsukoyumi is Instant,
    Spoiler show


    by the time Ma and Pa realize what is happening, Jiraiya is in a coma(if Itachi wants to).
    They are FUSED to him. Their Chakra is connected. The moment it happens, they can break him out just like Hachibi did to Bee.
    Quote Quote:
    Jiraiya, to be able to cancel Tsukoyumi, needs a Bijuu who can see what Jiraiya sees and feels, otherwise Jiraiya cannot break the Genjutsu.
    You know, the constant smilies are really obnoxious.
    And 'needs a Bijuu?' No, Bee says you need a partner and says HIs partner happens to be his Bijuu. Fukasaku and Shim are both connected to Jiraiya in that position.
    And what prevents Jiraiya from keeping his eyes off Itachi's and using...any number of other techniques? Hell, he could easily start off by blasting Itachi's eyes with toad oil.

    Quote Quote:
    DB are vague and only re-tell what the manga says, just in other words:
    Case-In point
    Link


    According to the Databook, Sasuke is unstoppable and invincible.
    No, it calls him a 'remarkable shinobi.' Which he is.

    Quote Quote:
    Databooks are not manga material, they only reword the facts that are stated in the manga, in a vague way. They are not to be used as proof or evidence.
    Says who, you? They're written by Kishimoto and often contain elaboration, evidence or background story info. If they say something contradicted by a fallible character who doesn't know about the other technique, we believe who exactly?

  12. #325
    Registered User 九千以上だ! / Kyuusen Ijou Da! / It's Over 9000! mattiaildivino's Avatar
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    Re: Great Cycle ' Sannin and Itachi '

    I think Jiraiya in sage mode is strong enough to defeat itachi,but only because he has got a counter for amaterasu,that he studied after sealing it in volume 17,we don't know if it's true but I think so. but itachi with susanoo is very dangerous,maybe the totsuka sword and the yata mirror are too much for j-man.itachi's illusions and intelligence are another factor. then Itachi wins. about orochimaru I think there is no need to consider him,because itachi owned him. Itachi(1) Jiraiya(2) and oro(3)

  13. #326
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Kazu-Sama's Avatar
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    Re: Great Cycle ' Sannin and Itachi '

    Solely because you stated 'Last Man Standing' I voted for Orichimaru. With his many, many survival techniques, he can outlast Itachi and Jiraya, and let them duke it out. Of course, in a straight-up fight, Itachi stomps. He can either Sus or Genjutsu Jiraya, and same for Oro. I don't see how Jiraya can beat either of them...

    Epic Brofist!

  14. #327
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted xXan's Avatar
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    Re: Great Cycle ' Sannin and Itachi '

    2 ms genjutsu and JMan and Oro are on the floor defeated.

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