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View Poll Results: Who wins

Voters
125. You may not vote on this poll
  • Shunsui wins

    73 58.40%
  • Ulquirra wins

    30 24.00%
  • the fight is pointless because Shunsui beat Stark and is proven stronger

    22 17.60%
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Thread: Shunsui Kyouraku vs Ulquiorra Cifer

  1. #1
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member BaddAzzKenpachi74's Avatar
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    Shunsui Kyouraku vs Ulquiorra Cifer

    we'll seeing as how i've been seeing ALOT of people who believe that Ulquiorra is the "strongest espada" i decided to make this thread.
    i however DON'T believe he is the strongest espada just because he has a second ressureccion.
    like i've said before at most he is stronger than Halibal but not Stark or Barragan. Yammi has been proven to be all brawn and no brain so his 0 rank means squat right know and he to would be beaten by Stark and Barragan.
    i've decided to make this especially for the Ulquiorra fans that say he is the strongest.
    so lets begin
    Shunsui full power "Bankai" vs Ulquiorra full power "segunda"
    who wins
    Last edited by BaddAzzKenpachi74; October 18, 2009 at 07:47 AM.

    Live for battle, enjoy every minute, death is the price u pay for a good battle, live to kill, no fear.
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    Re: Shunsui Kyoraku vs Ulquiorra Cifer

    Quote Originally Posted by BaddAzzKenpachi74 View Post
    Shunsui full power "Bankai" vs Ulquiorra full power "segunda"
    who wins
    Is this a trick question?

    Quote Originally Posted by BaddAzzKenpachi74 View Post
    we'll seeing as how i've been seeing ALOT of people who believe that Ulquiorra is the "strongest espada" i decided to make this thread.
    i however DON'T believe he is the strongest espada just because he has a second ressureccion.
    like i've said before at most he is stronger than Halibal but not Stark or Barragan.
    I agree with this, Stark and Barragan are stronger than Ulquiorra. People compare Ulquiorra's Segunda Etapa to a Shinigami's bankai but I see it more like Byakuya's Senkei. Careful readers will see a pattern here:

    Byakuya says "This is Senbonzakura's true form"

    http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/164/09/

    Ulquiorra says "This is true despair"

    http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/348/04/

    Reactions from nakama to Byakuya's Senkei

    http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/164/17/

    Reactions from nakama to Ulquiorra's Segunda Etapa

    http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/348/09/

    Ichigo has big problems against Senkei

    http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/165/07/

    Ichigo has big problems against Segunda Etapa

    http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/348/15/

    Ichigo loses to Senkei

    http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/165/16/

    Ichigo loses to Segunda Etapa

    http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/348/21/

    Hollow interferes against Byakuya

    http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/165/19/

    Hollow interferes against Ulquiorra

    http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/350/06-07/

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  4. #3
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member BaddAzzKenpachi74's Avatar
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    Re: Shunsui Kyoraku vs Ulquiorra Cifer

    Quote Originally Posted by Gran Maestro View Post
    Is this a trick question?
    we'll no lol,
    like i said this is for the Ulquirria fans that "THINK" he is the strongest espada.
    so by there flawed logic Ulquirria would be stronger than Stark "which he is not" so i decided to state that Shunsei+Bankai vs Ulqurria+segunda to humor them lol.
    since Shunsei was shown to beat Stark with only shikai those Ulqurra fans would naturally think that Shunsui would need bankai to beat "the strongest espada lol"

    Live for battle, enjoy every minute, death is the price u pay for a good battle, live to kill, no fear.
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    Re: Shunsui Kyoraku vs Ulquiorra Cifer

    Kubo is an intelligent mangaka, he caused much controversy by introducing a Segunda Etapa which had no bearing on the result of Ulquiorra vs Ichigo fight at all. Ulquiorra was already winning with his Resurreccion Primera Etapa, i.e. Stark, Barragan and Harribel could also dispatch Ichigo without much effort. Segunda Etapa served no purpose other than humiliating Ichigo even further, and people interpreted this humiliation as a sign of Ulquiorra's awesome strength, forgetting that he would get the same treatment from Top 3.

    Can you imagine that Byakuya reveals to Ichigo that there's a shinigami concept called bankai, this is a secret and only himself achieved it? It doesn't make sense, does it? Now replace Byakuya with Ulquiorra, shinigami with arrancar and bankai with segunda etapa and everything suddenly makes much sense to people, due to popularity of Ulquiorra I guess. Segunda etapa is not arrancar bankai, it's just the second stage of resurreccion similar to Byakuya's senkei.

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    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity CBlitz's Avatar
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    Re: Shunsui Kyoraku vs Ulquiorra Cifer

    shunsui could beat Ulq with his shikai

  8. #6
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member BaddAzzKenpachi74's Avatar
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    Re: Shunsui Kyoraku vs Ulquiorra Cifer

    Quote Originally Posted by Gran Maestro View Post
    Kubo is an intelligent mangaka, he caused much controversy by introducing a Segunda Etapa which had no bearing on the result of Ulquiorra vs Ichigo fight at all. Ulquiorra was already winning with his Resurreccion Primera Etapa, i.e. Stark, Barragan and Harribel could also dispatch Ichigo without much effort. Segunda Etapa served no purpose other than humiliating Ichigo even further, and people interpreted this humiliation as a sign of Ulquiorra's awesome strength, forgetting that he would get the same treatment from Top 3.

    Can you imagine that Byakuya reveals to Ichigo that there's a shinigami concept called bankai, this is a secret and only himself achieved it? It doesn't make sense, does it? Now replace Byakuya with Ulquiorra, shinigami with arrancar and bankai with segunda etapa and everything suddenly makes much sense to people, due to popularity of Ulquiorra I guess. Segunda etapa is not arrancar bankai, it's just the second stage of resurreccion similar to Byakuya's senkei.
    we'll i totally agree with your logic dude and it the EXACT same thing i've been trying to explain for awhile.
    i've said many times that Ulquarria having a segunda doesn't give him a HUGE boost in power like some people seem to think.
    like by saying that he is the strongest espada is absurd since that would mean that Segunda jumps his power 4 whole ranks "that is if u include Yammi released".
    even if Segunda gave him the power similar to a bankai i still don't believe he would jump of 4 whole ranks in power.
    thats like saying if Stark had a segunda he would be stronger than Aizen.
    its just pure favoritism. like i said Segunda most likely makes him stronger than Halibal i'll agree to that.
    but in no way will i EVER believe he is stronger than Stark or Barragan since i'm 100% positive that those 2 could own Ichigo just as bad as Ulquarria did

    Live for battle, enjoy every minute, death is the price u pay for a good battle, live to kill, no fear.
    by Kenpachi Zaraki
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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Lunatic Scream's Avatar
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    Re: Shunsui Kyoraku vs Ulquiorra Cifer

    Segunda Etapa has little to no basis for comparison among anything. I can't think of any reason it was introduced into the story. Ulquiorra fanservice? As a completely immeasurable way to "make Ichigonator look stronger"? Half of me thinks it's because even Kubo thought Ulquiorra's first release was lame looking, and thought he deserved a more fitting one aesthetically. I mean it was basically "gain wings and a bigger hat", I was disappointed when I saw it. Segunda Etapa's look admittedly fit him much better.
    Even when we see a decent comparison for Ichigonator, it won't help us determine how strong Ulquiorra was, because he got slaughtered.

    Anyways, if you're throwing in Shunsui's BANKAI, when his shikai has the power to bend reality to its whims... it wouldn't even be a contest. I can't fathom what his bankai would even be, honestly. Turning his opponent into an attractive female, who takes extra combat damage every time he sexually harasses her? This is all assuming his bankai is actually an upgrade, unlike Soifon's. (Death in two strikes to... not death in 3 nukes... UPGRADE!)

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member El Samurai Guapo's Avatar
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    Re: Shunsui Kyoraku vs Ulquiorra Cifer

    Like I said recently in another thread, people overrate Ulquiorra because they actually believed vizard Ichigo to be powerful, when in reality he wasn't even at captain level.

    All of this confusion goes back to the Soul Society arc where Kenpachi and Byakuya handed Ichigo a draw. Believe it or not, there's still a lot of ignorant fans out there that thing Ichigo was stronger than Kenpachi with his shikai, or that Ichigo could defeat Byakuya easily with his bankai alone.

  11. #9
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Shunsui Kyoraku vs Ulquiorra Cifer

    Quote Originally Posted by Gran Maestro View Post
    Is this a trick question?



    I agree with this, Stark and Barragan are stronger than Ulquiorra. People compare Ulquiorra's Segunda Etapa to a Shinigami's bankai but I see it more like Byakuya's Senkei. Careful readers will see a pattern here:

    Byakuya says "This is Senbonzakura's true form"

    http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/164/09/

    Ulquiorra says "This is true despair"

    http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/348/04/

    Reactions from nakama to Byakuya's Senkei

    http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/164/17/

    Reactions from nakama to Ulquiorra's Segunda Etapa

    http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/348/09/

    Ichigo has big problems against Senkei

    http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/165/07/

    Ichigo has big problems against Segunda Etapa

    http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/348/15/

    Ichigo loses to Senkei

    http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/165/16/

    Ichigo loses to Segunda Etapa

    http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/348/21/

    Hollow interferes against Byakuya

    http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/165/19/

    Hollow interferes against Ulquiorra

    http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/350/06-07/
    I still would not think segunda etapa is merely a form of ulquiorra's resurreccion. Lets take a look at the actual wording used: "Resurrecion Segunda Etapa".

    If you look at the direct translation from spanish, you will see that it means "resurection: second stage". Looking at the translation from japanese it means "Sword's Release: Second Level". In japanese and spanish the translation is basically the same but it is worth noting that none of them eveb vaguely suggests that ulquiorra is still in his resurreccion(the first one). The words use are exactly the same as the ones used to discribe and name bankai.

    Now, lets take a look at this:
    http://mangahelpers.com/s/maximum7/r...9?t=1255930121
    Which you compared to this:
    http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/164/17/

    Ishida clearly states the feeling he gets from segunda etapa is completely different from anything he has felt before. Whats more, he goes as far as saying "not just in size or strength". Now, if segunda etapa is completely different in size or strength to anything he has felt before the logically that includes what he felt when byakuya used senkei. The way the manga has portrayed things as of now, it would seem as if the difference between the feeling of senkei and segunda etapa cannot even be considered in the same context(otherwise there is no point in saying the reiatsu is so thick it does not even feel like reiatsu).

    I give you props for finding a pattern between the byakuya and ulquiorra fights but IMHO the manga has done nothing but suggest segunda etapa is an arrancars bankai(from the name to its effects).


    Quote Originally Posted by BaddAzzKenpachi74 View Post
    we'll i totally agree with your logic dude and it the EXACT same thing i've been trying to explain for awhile.
    i've said many times that Ulquarria having a segunda doesn't give him a HUGE boost in power like some people seem to think.
    like by saying that he is the strongest espada is absurd since that would mean that Segunda jumps his power 4 whole ranks "that is if u include Yammi released".
    even if Segunda gave him the power similar to a bankai i still don't believe he would jump of 4 whole ranks in power.
    thats like saying if Stark had a segunda he would be stronger than Aizen.
    its just pure favoritism. like i said Segunda most likely makes him stronger than Halibal i'll agree to that.
    but in no way will i EVER believe he is stronger than Stark or Barragan since i'm 100% positive that those 2 could own Ichigo just as bad as Ulquarria did
    Why would it be so unreasonable for ulquiorra to jump 4 ranks with segunda etapa? We do not have a set rule for how much difference in power there has to be between ranks for one thing. A bankai makes a shinigami 5 to 10 times stronger. Hybrid powers provide the user with an unreasonable amount of power. Now, how much power would a bankai along with hybrid powers have? If segunda etapa is an equivalent to bankai(I do not think it is impossible for the manga to prove me wrong about that but I do think the manga has pretty much stated it is) then the boost he gets from it should be a combination of bankai and hybrid powers meaning the boost he receives should be greater than 5 to 10 times his powers. If ulquiorra uses segunda etapa(and gets a bankai like boost) and still does not surpass the four guys above him then the result is that harribel, barragan, starrk and released yammi are over 5 to 10 times stronger than ulquiorra from the start. Quite frankly, I do not think starrk or yammi are 10 times stronger than even arroniero lol.
    Last edited by kkck; October 19, 2009 at 12:51 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

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    Re: Shunsui Kyouraku vs Ulquiorra Cifer

    I really wish those that voted "Ulquiorra wins" would post there reasons for why they made that selection. In my opinion this is no contest, but it would be interesting to read people's arguments for why they feel Ulquiorra could defeat Shunsui.

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    Re: Shunsui Kyoraku vs Ulquiorra Cifer

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    I still would not think segunda etapa is merely a form of ulquiorra's resurreccion. Lets take a look at the actual wording used: "Resurrecion Segunda Etapa".

    If you look at the direct translation from spanish, you will see that it means "resurection: second stage". Looking at the translation from japanese it means "Sword's Release: Second Level". In japanese and spanish the translation is basically the same but it is worth noting that none of them eveb vaguely suggests that ulquiorra is still in his resurreccion(the first one). The words use are exactly the same as the ones used to discribe and name bankai.
    Bankai means "Final Release" but Ulquiorra's segunda etapa suggests that there can theoretically be a tercera or cuarta etapa, just like different forms of Byakuya's bankai. Byakuya is the only shinigami thus far that has different bankai forms, I think there is a similarity.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Ishida clearly states the feeling he gets from segunda etapa is completely different from anything he has felt before. Whats more, he goes as far as saying "not just in size or strength". Now, if segunda etapa is completely different in size or strength to anything he has felt before the logically that includes what he felt when byakuya used senkei. The way the manga has portrayed things as of now, it would seem as if the difference between the feeling of senkei and segunda etapa cannot even be considered in the same context(otherwise there is no point in saying the reiatsu is so thick it does not even feel like reiatsu).
    Ishida stated that Ulquiorra's reiatsu was nothing like he had ever seen, so we can conclude that it was stronger than Byakuya's (or perhaps it had a different nature) but let's not forget it's a typical praise to a villain's strength (especially if the villain is Ichigo's adversary), this statement gives us no meaningful info to compare Ulquiorra's reiatsu with, for example, Stark's. On the contrary, we know that Stark's reiatsu was strong enough to involuntarily kill weak hollows, if Ulquiorra's flashback doesn't reveal something that can convince us to believe he's indeed superior, we can say Stark's reiatsu is stronger.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    I give you props for finding a pattern between the byakuya and ulquiorra fights but IMHO the manga has done nothing but suggest segunda etapa is an arrancars bankai(from the name to its effects).
    Does it make sense that in the long history of arrancars only one of them achieved bankai? Stark and Barragan were definitely strong enough to achieve an arrancar version of bankai. IMO Ulquiorra's segunda etapa was an ability exclusive to himself, just like Ggio Vega's Tigre Estoque. It certainly makes Ulquiorra stronger than his first stage but I don't think the power difference is comparable to a shinigami's bankai.

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  17. #12
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Shunsui Kyoraku vs Ulquiorra Cifer

    Quote Originally Posted by Gran Maestro View Post
    Bankai means "Final Release" but Ulquiorra's segunda etapa suggests that there can theoretically be a tercera or cuarta etapa, just like different forms of Byakuya's bankai. Byakuya is the only shinigami thus far that has different bankai forms, I think there is a similarity.



    Ishida stated that Ulquiorra's reiatsu was nothing like he had ever seen, so we can conclude that it was stronger than Byakuya's (or perhaps it had a different nature) but let's not forget it's a typical praise to a villain's strength (especially if the villain is Ichigo's adversary), this statement gives us no meaningful info to compare Ulquiorra's reiatsu with, for example, Stark's. On the contrary, we know that Stark's reiatsu was strong enough to involuntarily kill weak hollows, if Ulquiorra's flashback doesn't reveal something that can convince us to believe he's indeed superior, we can say Stark's reiatsu is stronger.



    Does it make sense that in the long history of arrancars only one of them achieved bankai? Stark and Barragan were definitely strong enough to achieve an arrancar version of bankai. IMO Ulquiorra's segunda etapa was an ability exclusive to himself, just like Ggio Vega's Tigre Estoque. It certainly makes Ulquiorra stronger than his first stage but I don't think the power difference is comparable to a shinigami's bankai.
    It is true segunda etapa does not indicate the same finality as bankai but that does not change the fact that the terminologo used to name it is the same as the one with bankai. What would be the point of doing that if that was not the case? If segunda etapa was meant to be a form of ulquiorra's resurreccion it would have been called that. Yet, it was called a stage which in every other circumstance implies a different level of release.

    And what long history of arrancar are you talking about lol? Before aizen there had only been a few incomplete arrancar around and given what we saw they could barely release properly(just look at GF). Given the actually SHORT history of arrancar, their scarce numbers and the fact that very few would actually have the talent to achieve such a thing it kinda makes sense that most arrancar don't use or even know about it. Seriously, in SS there are thousands of shinigami and among them less than 2 dozens have reached bankai. How would it be any different for arrancar(specially when the truly complete ones are so absurdly scarce)?

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    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Raizen's Avatar
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    Re: Shunsui Kyouraku vs Ulquiorra Cifer

    I think who ever created this thread should merge choice 1 and 3 together, since they are bascically the same thing.

    As Gran has stated, ulqui's transformation is similar to vigio, or whatever "its" name is. Vigio transform and focused more on power than speed. Ulqui transformed to focus more on regeneration as he has stated. I think ulqui is ranked correctly. as # 4. The only reason why he seemed so powerful was b/c he was beating ichigo like crazy. But ichi is considerably weaker than someone like shunsui.

    In the end ulqui would lose bad to starks and even worse to shunsui

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    Re: Shunsui Kyouraku vs Ulquiorra Cifer

    Quote Originally Posted by BaddAzzKenpachi74 View Post
    Yammi has been proven to be all brawn and no brain so his 0 rank means squat right know and he to would be beaten by Stark and Barragan.

    [
    Your weakening your own argument here. You show an example of where you do not think that somebody can be stronger than their rank (Ulq), and then counter by saying how one can be stronger than their rank (stark/barragan>Yammi).

    I mean, where the hell do you get Stark/Barragan>Yammi? We've seen Yammi fight in his released form for like 10 seconds now, and your so quick to write him off as a weakling?

    Excuse me, but the one that got owned by a shikai was Stark.

    I'm in no way saying that Yammi is stronger than Stark/Barragan, all I'm saying, is that from canon evidence alone, we have no way to compare them yet.

    Also, assuming you use feats instead of canon evidence to gauge the power of Yammi vs. Stark and Barragan, then you contradict yourself again. Ulquiorra has by far the most impressive feats for an espada, but you say he is not stronger than his rank. Yammi has shown basically no feats, and you say he is weaker than his rank.

    The point I'm trying to make is, we have no basis of comparison for Ulquiorra to Stark/Barragan to Yammi.

    If we go by Aizen's numbering scheme, it should go like this:
    Ulquiorra R1<Barragan<Stark<Yammi
    Current Theories/Beliefs for Bleach:
    -Barragan and Halibel arn't goners yet-Confirmed
    -Ukitake has an absorb and redirect type shikai (think baby nel vs. Dardonii's cero)-Confirmed
    -The VL army/group that Aizen supposedly has doesn't exist-Pending/Waiting for confirmation on Wonderweiss
    -The Vizards have ulterior motives, by ulterior I mean they arn't just going to be goody-two-shoes and help out the SS that betrayed them just to get back at Aizen-Pending

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    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Shunsui Kyouraku vs Ulquiorra Cifer

    Quote Originally Posted by Raizen View Post
    I think who ever created this thread should merge choice 1 and 3 together, since they are bascically the same thing.

    As Gran has stated, ulqui's transformation is similar to vigio, or whatever "its" name is. Vigio transform and focused more on power than speed. Ulqui transformed to focus more on regeneration as he has stated. I think ulqui is ranked correctly. as # 4. The only reason why he seemed so powerful was b/c he was beating ichigo like crazy. But ichi is considerably weaker than someone like shunsui.

    In the end ulqui would lose bad to starks and even worse to shunsui
    Ulquiorra did not transform so that he could regenerate, he could do that even before his initial resurreccion.
    http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/351/05/

    Then there is also the thing about ulquiorra saying he achieved another level of release rather than just a form and gigio actually saying his transformation was just a form of his resurreccion.

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