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the fight is pointless because Shunsui beat Stark and is proven stronger
I'll give you that Aizen might not have known (it's hard to refute) but I'm still having a hard time believing that. Its also hard to gage how strong Ulq really was since he only really fought Ichigo and in the end that monster form stomped. Based on how the cpatains generally performed against the Espada, I can't see Shunsui losing to this guy.
I think the issue ultimately lies on whether segunda etapa is or is not a bankai equivalent. Honestly though, I am more of the idea that ulquiorra would be a more adequate opponent for shunsui than starrk was. Starrk was good but his abilities and powers seemed to be focused on long range more than anything. Just look at the ceros and the wolves. All of it works better at a range, all of it is meant to keep the enemy away. In turn ulquiorra has every advantage when it comes to close range combat. He has his regeneration which even without organ regeneration would still help a lot in dealing with wounds taken from the games. More so, starrk was taken by a slash to the chest while ulquiorra survived for a whole without a number of organs and even in that state had enough power to use yet another lanza. Basically ulquiorra is the more durable one. If it is resurreccion ulquiorra vs shikai shunsui I think shunsui would win with moderate trouble but once it gets to segunda etapa(as a bankai equivalent) vs bankai(theoretically extreme games) it is a bit of a tossup. I mean, if shunsui's shikai has that much of a risk to him then bankai should be more dangerous although to both of them.
That's an assumption. Nowhere in bleach does there say that Shunsui's bankai is like ONE of his games. That one game is Iro-oni. There's no reason Shunsui has to rely on one game to beat Ulquiorra. He has 4. He doesn't need bankai to win. He can beat Ulquiorra with shikai just the way he beat Starrk. The difference is the games were explained not just to Starrk, but to us the reader. Since we know his abilities and how the games work, it doesn't make sense to give them away in hints with a fantasy fight like this. Ulquiorra's own words were there are 3 espada stronger than him. He didn't say "before I go segunda etapa" he just said they were stronger, period.
It was stated by Kubo that Espada's strength is due to the ammount of their Reiatsu, so it was obvious that going from Yami in his 0 Espada form Ulquiorra was only 5th strongest, so no way he was in any logical way the strongest counting Segunda Etapa or not.
And mainly Ulquiorra himself stated that there are at least 3 Espadas who are stronger than him! Obviously he counted everything he has. Otherwise how can he say that he is weaker if he has something that really makes him stronger than them.
P.S. Shunsui's Shikai doesn't have any drawbacks... His frase about his Shikai not being in the mood wasn't actually about his Shikai, but was about himself. It was he who wasn't in the mood, when he started fighting Starrk, but when he undestood that other Shinigami can die, he took Starrk down with his games.
And about Ulquiorra... I actually doubt Shunsui would need Shikai...
Shunsui wouldn't need his SHikia for Ulq...Woah That's a stretch to me unless we're talking about Ulq's base form. Shunsui got a sweet impalement on Starrk before he went in for the killing blow I believe largely hampering Starrk's ability to fight back. However agains't Ulq segunda release I think STarrk is gonna have to use Bankia which he was going to use agains't Starrk also until Ukitake came in to help him.....I Believe Shunsui can take Ulq but not w/o his bankia. Ulq Lanza had too much destructive power more so than Starrk's Wolves and Cero's. Even more Than Soifon's bankia.
Shunsui not needing Shikai to defeat Ulquiorra? Funny how I think the dude is gonna need his Bankai.
Ulquiorra is by far weaker than Stark. He stated it himself. How can you think otherwise if Ulquiorra himself stated this?
If Shunsui took down Stark with Shikai, then at best he would as well need Shikai to take down Ulquiorra, no more.
Shunsui is just that strong, when he gets serious.
Ulquiorra is a different fighter to starrk though. Starrk was a ranged fighter, he relied on his cero guns and wolves. Shunsui only got to him when he sneaked up on him and stabbed his heart. Ulquiorra is a close range fighter with high speed regeneration. Heck, he even had his organs disappear and he still had enough power to use lanza del relampago. Worth noting that ishida was surprised that ulquiorra could use that more than once at all which should say something in regards to ulquiorra being able to use it in a half dead state with half his organs missing. The wound which ultimately killed stark would definitely not be enough to stop ulquiorra in more than a while.
Well, Ulquiorra's only real fit was his regeneration, cause apart of it he had hype only because he fought against main hero, who was obviously weaker at that point than Shunsui.
Also, firing Lanza several times isn't a fit... Ichigo can stay in his Bankai forever and fire Getsuga Tenshou infinite times...
Well, Ulquiorra's regen was good, but no matter how you look at it, Stark was on a whole different level and it isn't really important if their fighting style was different. The same Ulquiorra suggested that he was in no comparrison with Hallibel, Barragan and Stark.
Also, Stark managed to easily win against two Vaizard Captains if not for Shunsui. And that's way bigger fit, than win against Hueco Mundo Ichigo... Also Shunsui was reffered by Kubo to be able to take Aizen down in his Bankai to the state that he would be sealed the same way he was after Mugetsu in one of the interviews presented on the forum... So I really doubt Ulquiorra can take Shunsui even close. If Shunsui is serious, he takes this easily in Shikai with no problems.
P.S. No matter how good your regeneration is, if your head is no more, you won't fight any more. It was prooven by Ryuken.
Shunsui was going to use Bankia before Ukitake stepped in. He then intruded on his fight with the 2 vizards impaling him from behind, from there he had the match in the bag didn't need to use a bankia after that.
Well, no matter how strong an attack is, but if you can't hit anyone with it... it's actually useless. So talking about its destructive power...
Also as we've seen many times in Bleach a damage on physical objects and objects of landscape doesn't say anything about an actual power of an attack. There were tons of people who managed to take Cero or Gran Rey Cero and be ok, while they were down after one slash from Aizen...
Well, Shunsui was going to use his Bankai to end it quickly, but in the end he didn't even need it. And we know for sure as Kubo stated that that Bankai from Shunsui would be enough to do the same that Ichi did against Aizen with his Mugetsu...
How do we know shunsui didn't need bankai? When starrk was using his guns shunsui could not actually get close to starrk. Based on the rules shunsui described he actually won the takaoni game but the guns kept him at bay. He didn't deal with the wolves either... Shunsui only actually got to starrk with a sneak attack which not only he managed thanks to rose and love but also was an actual stab to starrk's chest which is as far as we know quite damaging. Shunsui did not just solo starrk or anything, he took advantage of the situation and thanks to love and rose he took the fight to a close range situation where his games were useful. I don't think shunsui would have fared significantly better against the wolves than rose and love did. How would he? The things were intangible and as a part of starrks soul should also be smart enough to choose when to actually explode.
That's a double negative on your part. First you say he wasn't in the mood, if so the games like takaoni didn't work. Now it worked? He displayed it once. And Bushogoma confused Starrk that he didn't even see Shunsui was above him. The cero he was firing were too weak to seriously hurt Shunsui, which is obvious because he took one directly to the back and tanked it, even though he "played dead" (Lisa's words). People act like Starrk did nothing to Shunsui. It's the opposite in fact. He gave him his best shot in Irooni when he called white. It was futile and Shunsui ended it. If Ulquiorra admits he can't even control his strongest attack, what chance does he stand against someone who beat the guy 3 ranks above him?
I have never said the sword not being in the mood means games plainly don't work. My take on the mood thing has always been that shunsui's zampakuto is the one that chooses the games on its own whims, not that mood in any form has an effect on whether games work or not.
That said, ceros were supposed to be used on the hundreds at a time, shunsui was lucky enough that stark (stupidly) only fired one. If shunsui had been a little less lucky at that particular time starrk was would have gone cero metralleta on his ass and would have been in trouble.
Starrk did do plenty to shunsui though, he was that strong. In his sealed form he was an even match for him and in the released one it required the effort of 3 captain level shinigami to take him down. Shunsui played dead however he was also lucky that starrk, who seemed to be more quantity over quality when it came to attacks, fired 1 cero instead of 1000. And even then, shunsui never laid a hand on starrk on his own. Once starrk used resurreccion he avoided every trick (dirty or otherwise) shunsui could throw at him beautifully. Its a manga fact that shunsui went for the kill after love and rose distracted starrk and started with a stab to the chest. Shunsui by no means won that fight alone and nothing he showed so far would suggest he had the means to deal with cero metralleta in any way or do any different against the wolves than love or rose did. Shunsui won only when he found a chance to deal damage and keep the fight in close range.
Why would Shunsui not choose the games? You take too literal what he said about being 'pushed around'. Nothing indicates he doesn't choose the games. And there's no valid argument that 1000 cero would have done anything different to Shunsui. Starrk clearly had to charge his gun and say it's command 'cero metralleta' to fire the machine gun cero (the translation). If he would have tried to do that it leaves the door open for Shunsui to dodge the attack. Which wouldn't be hard since he already was dodging them to begin with before Juushiro used his swords. It's NOT a manga fact that he went for the kill after Love and Rose's failure. Don't place what you assume to be fact as such. He says to Starrk, "I planned to give you hints...". Why would he plan to give him hints if he was 'going for the kill' as you say it? He avoided every trick you say, so why did he get stabbed from the shadow? Why did Shunsui cut his arm when he called "Irooni; Gray"? What you just said is false. You just said ANOTHER double negative.Really? So Shunsui is better in close range according to you in that post but before you said that's not enough to kill Ulquiorra? What are you arguing again?Quote: