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the fight is pointless because Shunsui beat Stark and is proven stronger
All cero's are fast and have a lot of range and power, and Stark's cero submachinegun even from close range was freaking huge and that was still dodged (Albeit at actual range, though frankly at range it's even larger so that point is moot). Dodging it with not only warning thanks to the charge time, but also the massive range of Shunsui's own steps is, frankly, all too easy if he actually fights smart, which actually holds somewhat true for him unlike most characters. Among cero's the hardest to dodge at any range are going to be the ones with either no or at least minimal time to charge due to both advance warning and, frankly, lack of surprise factor.
While I would agree however that Ulquiorra's range is pretty large regardless, the problem is the closer Shunsui is the easier it is to avoid regardless, as it covers less area. There's a reason point blank it's such a small size, out to mid range and, while still much large than that, it's still within frankly a single shunpo jump for most. And with Shunsui's range with them, yeah, frankly that'd be effortless.
Now granted Shunsui dodges them all then Ulq would probably resort to Lanza. His reaction speed is definitely higher up there from being able to react to Ichigonator's movements even if he barely did it, plus you have the fact that he expected for him to use Shunpo and not Sonido. He'd certainly be able to react to Shunsui's Shunpo and strike him with a Lanza.
Lanza's thrown aim sucks against still targets, and frankly there's nowhere near enough information to put Ulquiorra's speed above Starrks, much less Shunsui who fought him. Keep in mind this is the dude that pretty much vanished from Ichigo's sight willy nilly while carrying someone whereas he could see Ulquiorra, albeit barely in R1 (No idea about R2 as that was beatdown time). Shunsui himself instantly took Nanao extremely far away in one leap which in itself says a lot. While you could argue it as so, frankly it could easily swing either way with no easily comparable feats to compare them by.Quote:
I feel like a broken record posting these warnings, but please stay on topic. The focus of this thread should be Shunsui vs. Ulquiorra. And please try to keep it clean. Thanks~
Ichinator didn't move and was mid range at best. Seriously. That it could miss a still target at all completely removes it from viability of hitting while thrown. Shunsui, whose reactions are fast enough to dodge actual instantaneous ceros, should by all means be easily able to pull the same thing from, frankly, a much slower lance. Particularly since the lance has nowhere near the area of a cero in the first place. Frankly it's only viable against freaking huge targets that can't move as easily and thus are far easier to hit. His only real option is using it close ranged to nail Shunsui with, which not only has a chance of screwing him over, but arguably connecting with him might be hard too, depending on how you interpret things.
Last edited by Random101; June 17, 2010 at 12:22 PM.
Well, since my post was apparently off topic and got deleted, I will try to rephrase. Is there a source saying that the end page signs are written by editors and not Kubo? I always thought of them as his attempt at cliffhanging.
The reason I originally thought that CO is instanteneous, was that the actual speed of the beam that is cero is instant, and doesn't need to travel distances or at least does so to appear instantly.
Since, for comparison sake, we are taking Starrk's cero, since he is the only one who actually fought Shunsui, we can see that it took time for cero to travel from Starrk to Shunsui, which gave him time to dodge, and we see it in Shunsui himself reacting to his stanceless cero as well as when Ukitake jumps in and "saves" him. With CO we never actually see the beam travel any distances, we see a hole in Ichi's chest or CO colliding with Ichigonator's cero, stuff like that. I hope this explains what I meant.
In conclusion, if the signs on the last page are truly written by the editors (link of proof please), I should probably revise my opinion on this matter, since it seems to me that not everyone has the same idea on what an instantaneous cero would be.
CO also has a similar travel time. Like most ceros it's rarely there, as the attack is just that fast as all ceros are, however we see it here: http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/347/01/
Lest it be forgotten R2 Ulquiorra has an incredibly versatile arsenal. In addition to lanza and cero oscuras his increase and speed and strength are tremendous. His tail acts as a third, very strong arm, strong enough to immobilize Ichigo. He also has been shown to be one of the most intelligent Espada, Stark being the only one who seems to be as clever. He could easily figure out the rules of Shunsui's games. He could call black or white as his color, his primary colors in R2, use his tail to immobilize Shunsui, then use cero obscuras to the exposed parts of shunsui's shihakusho or haori. If he can immobilize Shunsui he could even just quickly shred him with his claws. I see Ulquiorra as a more difficult match for Shunsui, maybe the most difficult of the Espada due to his speed, strength, intelligence, and versatility.
Now see, I'd buy that if it weren't Ichigo he was overpowering. Ichigo who consistently keeps proving below people he's previously beaten, slower than blooming Orihime, and whose bankai has been obsolete for ages when frankly that only also applies to most captains shikai, if even that as Shunsui proves. And frankly Starrk was FAR more versatile than Ulquiorra ever was, as CO isn't even his unique technique in the first place, and his have a larger scope. Hell, the main reason this isn't a stomp is because Shunsui didn't face the wolves directly.
Similarly his Tail was not what immobilized Ichigo, as it was only holding his neck and he just plain wasn't moving, likely due to the massive beat down he was receiving. I mean if it were holding his limbs while he were struggling yeah, you might have a point, but only the neck when the dude's not moving at all suggests not anything about the tail's strength, but rather that he's just that weak after that.
Suffice to say Ulquiorra's speed in comparison to Starrk, much less Shunsui, is entirely up for grabs because the scale of that fight was off from the start. At best we have Ichigo barely being able to follow Ulquiorra's first release whereas he couldn't follow Starrk at all while he was carrying someone, who Shunsui was more or less able to keep up with in close quarters, but then we have to factor in whether or not his R2 gives him a speed boost and things fall to pieces. Trying to scale Ulquiorra's base attributes in comparison to anyone else is practically entirely opinion based thanks to the incredibly bad writing going on.
Last edited by Random101; June 17, 2010 at 01:52 PM.
One of the greatest advantages ulquiorra would have during the color game is that his limbs are expendable. Shunsui can call black, white green or whatever color ulquiorra has but as long as he hits a limb he will not deal damage. Basically, ulquiorra can be mutilated by shunsui during the color game but take no damage, he would simply regenerate. His tail and wings could cover his back and front easily. His tail would be extraordinarily useful to hit colors anywhere on shunsui's body and protect himself from attacks from any direction so even if shunsui uses his cloth to cover himself and attack ulquiorra has a small chance of using his tail to cover himself from impossible angles. Even though shunsui defeated primera, I do think ulquiorra's skills and abilities are more useful against shunsui than what starrk's were.
His tail is kinda minuscule for blocking purposes. Offense sure, that'd be an aid, but you can't block much with it. Granted the wings would likely help, but frankly if you cut through them or the tail you don't have jack. All Shunsui has to do is nail his organs once and it's over.
And conveniently, wings cast shadows.
Save for the fact that Orihime was able to react to something he could only just barely notice at the last second while he was in bankai during that fight. Yeah, that's a massive cred killer right there. If anything, that very thing says bad things about Ulquiorra's skills too. Ulquiorra fight was clearly nowhere near one of his high points.
Hence why my personal verdict would frankly be that Shunsui could probably take him with some difficulty playing to his strong suits. With massive shadow casting wings, and both his main techniques being easily dodgable if he's paying attention worst he's got to worry about is core skills and his physical attributes, and frankly since he could keep up with Starrk I'd give it to him given the only possible comparison we have on this, and even that one's arguable.