the fight is pointless because Shunsui beat Stark and is proven stronger
Not really sure how shunsui would use the shadow trick in the same way he did starrk and aizen though, this is a one on one fight. Sneaking up on ulquiorra like he did before won't be easy (or perhaps plausible). Shunsui could indeed get a hit on ulquiorra that way but after than he would expose himself to the game. I would think ulquiorra's tail could easily take advantage of the game while lanza would also work just as well as any sword (or perhaps better if it does to shunsui what it did to ulquiorra's mutilated arm)
Last edited by kkck; June 17, 2010 at 06:35 PM.
Save if he cuts through it, much like Ichinator ran though both his wing and main body. The tail is frankly too thin to do much for him for that purpose, he needs to protect his core body from his blades, which the wings would luckily grand just enough distance to do so if he uses them right.
Of course since they also cast shadows that would also leave him with his other dangerous technique to worry about.
The thing about his tail is he seems to have the ability to use it like a monkey would; something that can actual grip and hold his opponent. If he were able to get Shunsui around the neck and choke it would be over. Or around the waste and arms, taking away all offense. I wouldn't want to be smacked by that tail either.
I don't recall speed being a part of Shunsui's fight with Stark. Stark was standing still, blasting him with Cero. Then, when he attacked with the shadow game Stark was standing still, preparing to attack Rose and Love. The rest of the fight was close range sword fights. While I don't want to argue how fast Ulquiorra is, he is certainly a fighter who relies heavily on mobility. Shunsui has one ability that can negate that, his shunpo is brutal. Fast and can cover a long distance.
Now see if he tries for a choke, he'd first have to get it around, and keep in mind Shunsui's reactions when he's paying attention are insane, and even if he does that then, unlike Ichigo in that specific moment, Shunsui still has freedom of motion for his hands and feet. And if he has his swords, Ulquiorra's asking the thing to be cut off (Of course it'd regen to no ill effect, but whether or not such a scenario would create an opening is up for grabs). Such a usage of the tail for choking a dude is something that you only ever pull if there's no resistance remaining, as there was in that scene, because without immobilizing the other limbs it's just asking for trouble.Quote:
Edit: Though moot point in the long run, it'd make things trickier regardless as an offensive implement, and I'd neglected the sword's mood. I'd probably bet on him regardless, but depending on the mood of his sword it could end up pretty bad for him.
Last edited by Random101; June 17, 2010 at 09:27 PM.
Erm... Let's face facts:
Shunsui (Stats Overall: 530) Speed: 90
Byakuya (Stats Overall: 510) Speed: 90 (Equal to Shunsui, but considered a Master so Byakuya's Mobility is better than Shunsui (maybe Byakuya 95 and Shunsui 90).
Shikai Ichigo EQUAL's Byakuya in Speed (Meaning Ichigo is 90 Speed in Shikai)
Bankai Ichigos is so fast that Byakuya without Senkei can't even follow Ichigo's moves properly and even Senbonzakura's speed is not Match against Ichigos Bankai Speed (This means at least Ichigo is 100 in Speed and is faster than Shunsui and Byakuya) Ichigo's Reiatsu is more than 2 times that of a Captains. Ichigo has prooved to have GREAT stamina (better than Byakuya and Shunsu) in all of his battles he was MORTALY injured (specialy in his fights against Grimmjow (all 3 battles) and Ulquiorra and still was able to fight back after great injuries).
Ichigo wins against Byakuya while he was unixperinced with Bankai and even Byakuya aknoleged his strenght. Ichigo at this time is = Byakuya since he had a little help from his Hollow).
But as time passes Ichigo gains full control of his Bankai and Gains Hollowpower wich gave him a greater boost in running speed and phisical strenght meaning he is way stronger than Byakuya (well in Vaizard Ichigo appeared during the fight against Byakuya he OWNED Byakuya while he was using Senkei, we all know that SHunsui's Shikai is NO way stronger or even close to Byakuya's Bankai (well any captains Bankai is WAY stronger than any captains Shikai, that's a given fact...)
And as I stated (as well as the databook) Shunsui only has more 20 than Byakuya in their overall stats. And byakuya lost with Bankai so yeah Vaizard Bankai Ichigo >>>> Byakuya Bankai Senkei >>> Shunsui (with Shikai)
And still Ulquiorra in only 1st Release Outruns Vaizard Bankai Ichigo easily, He without even MOVING deflects Ichigo's enhanced hollowfied Getsuga Tenshou (remeber that this same Getsuga Tenshou wounded Byakuya pretty badly...), and His Cero oscuras was fast and strong enough to defeat that same Vaizard Bankai Ichigo in one blow and at the same time blowed away almost half os Las Noches wich is a middle sized country Structure... And plus he has his 2nd Release wich according to him represents despair to those who face that form: Ulquiorra even stated to Ichigo: "You still have the will to fight even after seeing me in this form?" this lines pretty much means Ulquiorra is on another league of his own compared to the other Espadas and his 1st Release, and in another NOTE ISHIDA stated that Ulquiorra's reiatsu was the strongest and heaviest he has ever felt and even tough he was even thinking if that was even reiatsu.. And Ishida is a Master when it comes to sense reiatsu. This means Ulquiorra has more reiatsu than Ichigo (2times the reiatsu of a Captain) and more reiatsu than Aizen (remeber that Ishida has felted all of SS captains reiatsu and some of the Espadas such as Neliel, Nnoitra, Grimmjow, Szayel... and Even after that He says that Ulquiorra's reiatsu is the strongest and heaviest...
And plus Ulquiorra has one of the strongest hierro in The Espada if NOT the strongest in his 2nd release, I say this because, in his normal state Ichigo in a pointblank range with a strike to Ulquiorra's chest he only did a little scratch and remeber that Ulquiorra as still 2 releases and plus his very strong hierro he has Instant regenerating abilities wich can heal any wound of his exept his organs but to hit his organs, his opponent still has to break trough his great hierro and has to have speed to even catch up with him or even keep up with him... And now let's talk about his strongest attack: Lanza Del Relampago, an attack wich can be used as a trow attack or as meele and it has great effects as both, When he trowed his Lanza del Relampago it covered a GREAT distance (many Miles from las noches) in only a few seconds (well Lanza Del Relamapgo mean Spear of Lighting) and created a Blast in a great distance way higher than Las Noches itself and the wind pressure of that Blast was strong enough to reach las noches and even destroyed some surrounding buildings... and as meele the spear can desintegrate anything it touches (this was prooved when he desintegrated his arm that H2Ichigo trowed to him) (when I say anything I mean weak attacks but its still good).
So after these given facts PEOPLE (well in this case dumb people who perhaps don't even read manga or are fanboy's) say Shunsui can defeat Ulquiorra EASILy with Shikai? Unless SHunsui SHOWS his Bankai (and his bankai HAS TO BE awsome to even be able to fight Ulquiorra, if its only an ordinary bankais then its pretty useless) I say with 100% sure that Ulquiorra would RAPE GODSTOMP Shunsui ...
Shunsui wouldn't have the reiatsu, the strenght, the speed or ANYTHING to even keep up with Ulquiorra as I said UNLESS he shows his bankai and it has to be a very good Bankai.
Hmm Stark :O. Ah as I said ESPADAS ARE RANKED BY REIATSU NOT BY ACTUAL STRENGHT DUMBASSES! Read the new Bleach Databook: Masked it is stated there BY TITE KUBO!
Because yeah Ulquiorra is 4th according to his reiatsu strenght but according to actual strenght if you guys see clearly stark is not the 1st: I'll rank more like this By actual strenght.
All these ranks according to ACTUAL strenght (abilities, speed, strenght and also reiatsu of course, stark only has great reiatsu, his phiscal strenght is definitly not among the best in the Espada and his ceros are weak... (compared to some attacks) but yeah his wolves are good but he his defensless when he uses his wolves because if someone skips the wolves and go against him he is fucked up... (this if a very strong opponent with great phisical strenght and speed is fighting him).
If I rank the Espada by full power Ulquiorra is the Strongest (2nd Stage).
End of Topic!!!
There is just so much stuff wrong with your post....
Stats between characters are not comparable. They reflect the individual potential of each characters. In that sense, byakuya's 90 is different from shunsui's 90 and it does not mean ichigo has a 90.
Byakuya with senkei and byakuya without senkei have exactly the same speed. Senkei only increases byakuya's attack power. He repeatedly stated senkei does not increase his speed and the only reason he caught up to ichigo was because ichigo's body could not handle the stress anymore. Even more, shirosaki evens stated the reiatsu from his own bankai was hurting ichigo (I believe "crushing his bones" is what he said").
Espada ranks are not based on a comparison of the espada's physical capacities and abilities. Espada ranks are based solely on reiatsu as stated on the databook. I doubt the reiatsu difference between espada is so huge that crushing other espada's techniques with it is a realistic option so even with ranks in mind it would still be important to consider how special abilities would match up against each other.
I do agree in that ulquiorra's segunda etapa made him the strongest espada though.
Tbh you can't really use those databook stats to determine things though...the powers and abilities in Bleach fluctuates so much ¬_¬...
Facts: Ichigo's so called superspeed bankai had proven to be slower than Orihime in both reaction time and ability to move in the Ulquiorra fight. Further while that same bankai Ichigo was barely able to perceive Ulquiorra's movements in that same instance, while he was covered by after images and smoke no less, the laid back sealed Starrk moved so fast that Bankai Ichigo couldn't even see him move when he was right in front of him, while Starrk himself was burdened with Orihime and there was literally nothing obstructing his vision of him.
Ergo with those clear cut facts alone, Starrk > Ulquiorra in speed, and Ichigo's speed wasn't anywhere near what it used to be, unless you think Orihime somehow got to a level that surpassed him in that category, in which case I laugh at you hard. Since Shunsui was able to keep up with Starrk, his speed is clearly higher than both, bare minimum while sealed. Hard to gauge how much release gains them advantages, but frankly I'd still put money on Starrk being faster given his speed feat can't even be compared with the same from Ulquiorra given Starrk had so much going against him as Ulquiorra had going for him in the same instance and he still utterly outstripped him.
Further by the same feat sealed Uquiorra's slower than Orihime which makes me laugh all the harder.
^I think the Orihime argument is a bit pushing it. I agree that Ichigo here isn't the same Ichigo who fought Byakuya, but using Orihime as a power gauge...
Unless you're honestly trying to say that you literally believe that Orihime could enter a battle with Ichigo or Ulquiorra and be equally fast (or faster) than either of them?
I think the orihime bit was very circumstantial. She was not the one being attacked, she was an spectator. In that sense, she had an entirely different view of the fight. It's like when we watch a sport on TV and we notice the opposing team made a play which will imminently screw us within the next few moments. We as spectators saw every bit of it however the ones actually playing could not. Orihime reacted because she was not directly involved in the fight. That said, orihime has had a significant increase in strength over the arcs. Even in SS arc she was mentioned to have reiatsu above that of a seated officer. She did quite a bit of training with rukia so I would think right now it would not be strange in the least if her reiatsu was at least comparable to that of a VC(that is not to say I think she would defeat one, she is not a fighter in any way).
That argument would fly except it doesn't change the fact that all the things that affected Ichigo, smoke and afterimages, would affect her too, and it wouldn't change the fact that in the time between Ichigo realizing Ulquiorra was behind him after that afterimage and turning his head, Orihime managed to also percieve where Ulquiorra was, summon her fairies, send them over to where Ichigo was some distance away, and put up a barrier in the exact spot it would have to be in a timeframe in which Bankai Ichigo couldn't move his sword from in front of him to intercept, or indeed flashstep out dah way. No defense flies in light of that.
Admittedly in a serious fight with either she still gets her head ripped off, but that's more because even if she could block it once, the barrier shatters right after and then she's wide open. It's kinda like how, with that feat, she's one of the people who could follow Gin's bankai, but that wouldn't change the fact that it's going to rip right though her barrier and impale her heart anyway. Her fairies move faster than Ichigo, and her perception is faster too, but her body is not.
Well unless some later feat proves Ichigo's even slower than that in bankai, which wouldn't surprise me, but luckily that doesn't look like it's happening anytime soon.
So technically, you're arguing that Orihime has speed and reflexes of a captain level shinigami? Or that Ichigo and Ulquiorra are slow enough for nakama to keep up with?
Anyway, I have to agree with kkck here - her miraculous save should be ascribed to the advantage that someone in the position of an observer has over the participants in the fight, and of course, Kubo's awkward screenplay writing skills, as I don't think his intention with that scene was to indicate power levels.
Of course, if it turns out Orihime is a speed monster, I'll stand corrected, but as things are, the scenario you're selling here - that Ichigo and Ulquiorra operate on a reeeeaaaly sssloooow level - simply isn't something I'd buy for the Orihime scene alone.
No, I'm saying Ichigo's speed degraded to that point. There's no defending it frankly. Having the advantage of an outside factor would only help the case if Ichigo didn't notice Ulquiorra at all. A sneak attack would be the only case in which Orhime could be reasonably explained to be able to react where Ichigo couldn't from an outside perspective, which mind was not the case, we saw Ichigo notice it. Orhime however had the same time interval as Ichigo to discern where Ulquiorra was after his afterimage flash step through the smoke and raise the appropriate response in order to block it in time, a response that takes longer than just kicking into shunpo or bringing a sword up to block mind you, from a distance no less.
I'm not saying she's a speed monster, quite the opposite. I'm saying that's the speed level Ichigo had to work with in the Arrancar arc. It just happens to compound with a lot of other evidence that he's lost a considerable amount of speed.
Well yeah, that's what I said. It's either that he and Ulquiorra are seriously slow, or that Orihime is a lot faster than we think. You went with the first option. And as I said, I'm not going with either, simply due to the fact that the scene was so heavily rigged to portray something that had nothing to do with speed or power levels and when taken as viable evidence only ends up hurting them.
If you dismantle the scene of its awkward point, you're left with what you're saying - that Ichigo and Ulquiorra are fighting on some VC speed level, if that (as I strongly doubt that Orihime or her powers exceed the level of a Vice Captain in terms of speed and reflexes). In return meaning that Grimmjow being slower than Ulquiorra is somewhere under the VCs speedwise, and that Rukia should have pwned him the first time in KT or at least given him a decent fight - basically bringing in a whole chaotic shazam into the already messed up power levels of Bleach.
So I choose to interpret the scene in the way where it is thanks to the better vantage point and miracle of friendship, Orihime ends up saving Ichigo's life. Of course, you're welcome to have your interpretation, I'm just voicing why I disagree.
Since when is Rukia a speedster? I can't honestly recall a single time she's used flashsteps. You're talking about the girl who can get pwnt by basic hollows when not paying attention dude, so not the best comparison.
Bah, regardless of how you slice it, Starrk is still significantly faster than Ulquiorra when both are sealed regardless. Granted hard to tell how that changes when released, but there are shenanigan's involved regardless. Given the databook reveals YAMMI of all people has the second strongest heirro among the espada when sealed I doubt Kubo's going to make much sense with it either... >>