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Translations: Gintama 507 (2)
the fight is pointless because Shunsui beat Stark and is proven stronger
2- ichi could have had that big of a power boost, who knows
3- Yammi was considered the weakest espada and is the weakest until he releases. I take yammi's 0 not as a sign that he is the highest in terms on numbering, but as a wild card. We know yammi's ability is the soul absorb. Maybe that is why he can become so strong. The souls that he absorbs turns into his own SP when he releases. So his power could coincide with how much souls he absorbed.
4- What exactly has ulqui shown that warrants he is the strongest? His regenration? Noitora can do the same. His lance destruction? (soifon's bankai is actually stronger IMO) His speed? starks unreleased was fast enough to kidnap orihime under the nose of both ken and ichi who were standing right next to her.
5- Starks losing to shunsui's shikai takes nothing away from him. Shunsui has been praised as one of the strongest since the beginning of the manga. Not to mention his shikai is incredibly powerful. The reason ulqui's feats seems more impressive was b/c he was fighting against ichi who was way weaker than him. Starks was fighting someone stronger than him so it wasn't as clear cut or impressive as ulqui. But ultimately starks is stronger
Last edited by Raizen; October 19, 2009 at 02:36 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
Last edited by Gran Maestro; October 19, 2009 at 03:22 PM.
i havent read what everyone had to say in here but to me in reality i believe Kubo only introduced it (the second stage of his release) because Ulq had been hyped to a such a point where he might not have expected....i mean how many times did Ulq slap Ichigo around before they finally got down to it.....i'm thinkin Kubo felt he had to at least give him something extra....
I believe the justification for why Aizen wanted Ichigo to be constantly watched by Ulq specifically was because he wanted to make sure he had someone who could account for Ichigo's current power as well as his 'Potential' power (which is why i think Ulq was not ranked higher than 4...tho to me still not Stronger than at least stark).....i mean doesnt that make sense....its pretty obvious Aizen's been watching Ichigo for a long time too so he would be aware of the random sudden burts in power for Ichigo.....
and also this whole thing about Ulq vs Shunsui is a lil much....in reality i dont think Ulquiorra would stand a chance i mean even if say Ulq's second form were even to the released Stark...it obviously still wont be enough....and i dont think you could push for Ulquiorra's second form to be stronger than at least Espada # 1's release (not that i believe that to be the case at all...released or not) even if u are a hardcore Ulq fan lol
Last edited by sojiroseta98; October 19, 2009 at 02:57 PM.
4. I didn't say it warrnats him to be strongest, he's just had the most raw feats. Also, how can we compare Stark's unreleased speed to Ulquiorra's speed? The difference between kidnapping from exhausted and unexpected fighters (and Kenpachi doens't even have shunpo for god's sake) and fighting is pretty substantial. I'm not saying that Ulquiorra is faster than Stark nor vice versa. I'm just saying, in raw feats, Ulquiorra's definitely got the biggest lot of them for the espada. THe problem with feats (and this is what I was trying to point out) is that they are always relative to the opponent. So for example, if like... Renji was fighting an unranked shinigami/random hollow, and used shunpo, he'd seem as fast as Ichigo did vs. Byakuya in SS, meanwhile, Ichigo vs. Grimmjow, neither of them seemed very fast since they had matching speeds. That's why I'm saying, feats cannot be compared. Which was my argument against the original post comparing Yammi to Stark/Barragan, since there's literally no way to compare them at this point besides feats.
5. I agree when you say that Ulq's feats look more impressive against a weaker opponent, which was my point in the first place. However, in the grand scheme of things, Stark losing to Shunsui, means that he's 5-10 times weaker than Shunsui, which in turn means that Yamamoto must be 10-20x stronger than Stark? I'm definitely not disagreeing that SHunsui in shikai>>>> Ichigo with vizard mask (or at least pre ichigonator mask)+bankai, I'm just saying, there's no way to compare Shunsui in shikai to Ichigonator, since those were the two that ended up beating their esapda opponents. So what if Ichigonator was stronger than Shunsui in shikai (again, not saying he is, although it's a possibility), that makes it possible for Ulquiorra R2 to be stronger than stark (again, just a possibility).
And this, of course, is just your opinion at the end.Quote:
nce again, not saying Ulquiorra is stronger than Stark, just pointing out the ambiguity Kubo caused by creating segunda etapa for Ulquiorra, and not letting us have a way to gauge its power, since Ulquiora R1 was curbstomping Ichigo, R2 did the same, and then Ichigonator curbstomps R2. And to add to the confusion, we have no idea how powerful Ichigonator is either. So whether Ichigonator is like... Shunsui with shikai tier, or Yamamoto/Aizen with bankai tier (however unlikely that would be), we don't know.
the first option is does Shunsei+bankai wins against Ulquarra+segunda "as i stated in previous post to humor the Ulquarra fans that THINK he is the strongest"
while the 3rd option indicates that the fight is pointless and Shunsei is proven to be stronger WITHOUT bankai since he beat Stark with only shikai "as wut i think and voted"
in the previous post u said i was contradicting because of the Yammi asumption,
but know your doing the EXACT same thing by "THINKING and ASUMEING" that Ulquarria is or MAY be stronger then Stark.
you say that its "his opinion"
thats a FACT considering were going of the canon in the manga were its stated that the higher the number is the stronger the espada.
we can sit here and "asume" and speculate all day but thats just your opinion.
saying Stark is stronger is a FACT dude so don't say its his opinion when its proven true in the canon by him actually being 1 espada.
Last edited by BaddAzzKenpachi74; October 19, 2009 at 03:38 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
Wow, it's been forever since i posted, and I usually prefer wall of text style posts, but i'll make this one short and sweet
I think the reason Kubo gave Ulquiorra a second stage release is to justify Ichigo's newer hollow transformation. The sad thing about bleach, and one reason why i got bored with predicting, commenting and constructing logical arguements for it is because Kubo operates on little to no logical at all anymore. His story is now not dissimilar to a hollywood CGI blockbuster. The plot has been very thin for quite a while now, and it's been increasingly about "you're strong, but i'm stronger (oh noes, YOU'RE actually stronger!!1!)" It seems to me that kubo never gives ichigo any new techniques or attacks, just new forms. I'd be borderline willing to bet that is new mask isn't his last form upgrade.
It is my extreme hope that he starts to write well again after the what has been arguably a poor couple of years for bleach. This would include actually keeping his main characters at semi-even levels again, instead of Ichigo just saving the day, all the freaking time. Remember when the story was more about individual powers and the tactics that the people utilised in order to do battle with that ability? That was creative...and i think we've seen a glimmer of this with ukitake and shunsui's releases.
To answer the question posed in the thread, I would say it's likely Shunsui would be able to beat Ulquiorra's Segunda etapa. Aside from the fact he was able to beat the primera with only his shikai, it's more his shikai's ability that would deliver his victory. How much more black and white could Ulquiorra get? He only needed to cut colours that would risk doing great damage to him. And that's what's been missing from this series for a long time. The tactical victory, not the "my wang is bigger than yours" victory
The whole fight with stark was a very disappointing standoff to say the least, after all the fuss that was made about the espada's power, particularly the top 4, and how the winter war was to be "the decisive battle" when in reality, Aizen's likely to run away from this like Mad Cat from inspector gadget saying "ill get you next time Soul Society....NEXT TIME"....
Anyway, i think i've had my little rant.....and it wasnt exactly short either...ah well, old habits die hard :P
Stop arguing, kubo uses plotkai, just hope he starts drawing it from logic again instead of his rear
Anyways, the higher the number (I assume you mean the lower the number, 1<4), the stronger? Therefore Yammi in resurreccion>Stark/Barragan in Resureccion. Stop contradicting yourself.
It's my opinion and an assumption that Ulquiorra may be stronger than Stark?
How is that an opinion in any way? Ulquiorra says that even Aizen has not seen him in his segunda etapa, so therefore, Aizen could not have taken it into consideration when ranking the espada, it adds the level of ambiguity that I'm talking about.
Again, how is it fact that Stark is stronger? Until the significance (or lack thereof) of segunda is explained to us, we don't know.
By your same logic once again, Yammi is zero, therefore he is once again, the strongest espada.
Espada ranking are just chosen by Aizen in terms of his own view.
But if you look at it. The king of Hueco Mendo (Barragan) is actually stronger than any Espada. Anything that is near him will just age.
Aizen choose Stark as No.1 because he can fire numerous of unlimited cero which is the strongest hollow skill. With that ability he could easily defeat many people..
But then Ulqouira is stronger than Stark because of the Segunda form. He can generate his body in instant, not even other Espada can do it and his speed evenly match Ichigo in complete hollow form.
No one in Espada knows about Segunda form of Ulqouira.
Number doesn't matter, the abilities of the character what does matter in a fight.
It would be over real quick once Starrk brought out his spirit wolves. They're literally unstoppable, extremely fast, and can be reformed after being destroyed. If both Love and Rose working together couldn't keep those wolves at bay for very long, you seriously think Ulquiorra could?
LoL you said the wolves are extremely fast and look if it was really fast then Love who isn't fast would not be able to dodge 1 of the wolves attack.
You cant compare the wolves speed to Ichigo fully transform into hollow that evenly match by Ulquoira in Segunda form.
Even fully transform Ichigo cant dodge Ulquoira attack. You said he traded his strength for Segunda form? Then if he does he would not be able to harm Fully transform Ichigo then. Ulqoira was even stronger than his first form...
You said Starkk was Unstoppable when he summon his Spirit wolves. Look he was killed by Shunsui abilities without using Bankai. Shunsui just use his shikai to kill the number 1# Espada -.-
Again number doesn't matter its Abilities that decide the winner
Last edited by Lemonadez; October 19, 2009 at 05:52 PM.
I think people need to rethink the fight between Stark and Shunsui.....
When Shunsui came back into the fight, he pulled another cheap shot but this time he actually got a hit on him, and it was a pretty good one. Also Shunsui's shikai is like no other in that its GAME based. If he wins the game, he wins the fight. It's not about sheer strength or power. It's how he plays the game, its a double edged sword and it's not something that can be attributed to power levels really.....
Also, Stark didn't have his guns AND he didn't use the wolves either, the guns gave Shunsui a decent amount of trouble before, and the wolves seemed to be invincible. Also, Stark was shaken again right before Shunsui got the finishing blow. He was reflecting about his past. That combined with the fact that Shunsui threw his coat at him to try and distract him enabled Shunsui to get the finishing blow. Afterall, he did let himself get hit by Love after he was shaken by Barragan's death. And he kinda fights dirty...
I'm not saying Stark is stronger than Shunsui, or that because of this Ulquiorra can beat Shunsui. I'm just saying that I don't consider the gap between Shunsui and Stark to be huge. Don't think I dislike Shunsui or his way of fighting either, I think he's freaking awesome. We also know very little about Ulquiorra's Segunda, and it's hard to say how strong it was because when Ulquiorra used it it was complete overkill, and Ichigo's new hollow form is godly powerful, so.....but, it's definitely special, and it's not what Gio Vega had.
Further proof that you don't pay attention while reading the manga. Love never dodged a single wolf. He only destroyed a few by whacking them with his huge ass cudgel. Besides, who said Love isn't fast? Was it either mentioned or demonstrated somewhere that Love was not fast? There is no basis for your claim that Love is not fast.Quote:
Says you. I haven't seen anything that suggested Ulquiorra or Ichigonator were faster than Starrk's wolves or even Starrk himself.Quote:
Uhh, no. Pay attention to the damn manga. http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/351/05/. Has nothing to do with which form he's in, Ulquiorra's overall power emphasis lies in regeneration rather than strength.Quote:
Nope, you don't even pay attention to my posts (sigh). I said that Starrk wolves were basically unstoppable (not Starrk himself). Of course Shunsui defeated him with his shikai which turns out has the perfect ability to prevent Starrk from using his wolves on him. I'm not going to bother explaining why to you, but I'm sure other intelligent posters reading this already know why Starrk couldn't have used his wolves to damage Shunsui during his color "game".Quote:
I do believe that if neither Ukitake or the vizards had jumped in the fight against Starrk, Shunsui would have likely had to use his bankai. As far as Ulquiorra vs. Shunsui goes, once he was trapped inside Shunsui's shikai game, there really isn't much Ulquiorra could do. His Lanza Del Relampago and Cero Oscuras would be useless because the amount of damage is based upon the colors you're wearing, and not the strength of your attack.
Last edited by El Samurai Guapo; October 19, 2009 at 09:09 PM.
I think Shunsui will win this fight. But i don't agree with the logic that "the fight is pointless because Shunsui beat Stark and is proven stronger". I believe Ulq was stronger than Stark, and the strongest Espada. If Ulq were to face Stark, i will pick him to win.