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View Poll Results: Who wins

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  • Shunsui wins

    73 58.40%
  • Ulquirra wins

    30 24.00%
  • the fight is pointless because Shunsui beat Stark and is proven stronger

    22 17.60%
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Thread: Shunsui Kyouraku vs Ulquiorra Cifer

  1. #61
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member goldhat's Avatar
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    Re: Shunsui Kyouraku vs Ulquiorra Cifer

    Quote Originally Posted by Gran Maestro View Post
    Shunsui managed to dodge Stark's instantaneous cero shots, there's no way Ulquiorra's CO or LDR would catch him. Was Ulquiorra a better and faster swordsman than Stark? I doubt it. So when Shunsui activates the color game and doesn't bother to explain the rules, Ulquiorra dies long before he figures out what's going on. Shunsui says "Black" and attacks Ulquiorra, Ulquiorra tries to cut Shunsui, fails, Shunsui takes off his haori and cuts Ulquiorra, game over. Ulquiorra has little chance against Shunsui's shikai and let's see what OP says:



    Yes, Shunsui's bankai vs Ulquiorra. BANKAI. I guess the fight ends so fast that you may miss it if you blink.
    It's still too far fetched to say that.

    Ulquiorra's cero oscuras covered almost half the roof of Las Noches. Las Noches would be almost the size close to that of Karakura town or even bigger. It's a huge fortress.

    http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/347/06/

    His lanza attack can disintegrate something that it comes into contact with, when used as a close combat tool.

    http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/351/11/

    Now, unless Shunsui can somehow shunpo from point A to point B, the distance in which would cover miles of distances...I doubt he could dodge the cero.

  2. #62
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    Re: Shunsui Kyouraku vs Ulquiorra Cifer

    Quote Originally Posted by goldhat View Post
    It's still too far fetched to say that.

    Ulquiorra's cero oscuras covered almost half the roof of Las Noches. Las Noches would be almost the size close to that of Karakura town or even bigger. It's a huge fortress.

    http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/347/06/

    His lanza attack can disintegrate something that it comes into contact with, when used as a close combat tool.

    http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/351/11/

    Now, unless Shunsui can somehow shunpo from point A to point B, the distance in which would cover miles of distances...I doubt he could dodge the cero.
    I guess you forgot about this instance http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/155/08/ commendably done even by Yama's standards. That to me looks like miles in one step.

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  4. #63
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member goldhat's Avatar
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    Re: Shunsui Kyouraku vs Ulquiorra Cifer

    Quote Originally Posted by freshseth83 View Post
    I guess you forgot about this instance http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/155/08/ commendably done even by Yama's standards. That to me looks like miles in one step.
    Ulquiorra can shoot off cero oscuras, effortlessly.

    In his segunda etapa form, charging time is faster than his first resurreccion form.

    He can shoot it as though it was a regular cero that he was going to fire it.

    http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/350/14/

    Before, you were arguing as to how Shunsui would finish him off in Ulquiorra's color game and how he would finish him off at once, without telling Ulquiorra about the rule.

    Now, you expect Shunsui to dodge some random cero, which he does not know how large and powerful it is going to be, by getting himself out of the area from miles (sq.) to where he was standing?

    Also, sorry about that. I meant to say square miles, instead of just miles.
    Last edited by goldhat; June 16, 2010 at 05:23 PM.

  5. #64
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    Re: Shunsui Kyouraku vs Ulquiorra Cifer

    Quote Originally Posted by goldhat View Post
    Ulquiorra's cero oscuras covered almost half the roof of Las Noches. Las Noches would be almost the size close to that of Karakura town or even bigger. It's a huge fortress.

    http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/347/06/
    Quote Originally Posted by goldhat View Post
    Now, unless Shunsui can somehow shunpo from point A to point B, the distance in which would cover miles of distances...I doubt he could dodge the cero.
    As freshseth83 mentioned, Shunsui can shunpo great distances in one step.

    http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/155/08/

    And I think you don't argue nobody can escape CO, it destroyed half of the dome but it doesn't mean CO covers half of the dome, it's the aftermath of the explosion, you're safe if you aren't standing in cero's way.

    Quote Originally Posted by goldhat View Post
    His lanza attack can disintegrate something that it comes into contact with, when used as a close combat tool.

    http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/351/11/
    No, it doesn't disintegrate everything, did Ulquiorra say that? It's like saying Hadou #54 can disintegrate everything because it burned Grimmjow's arm.

    http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/213/15/

  6. #65
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member goldhat's Avatar
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    Re: Shunsui Kyouraku vs Ulquiorra Cifer

    Quote Originally Posted by Gran Maestro View Post
    As freshseth83 mentioned, Shunsui can shunpo great distances in one step.

    http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/155/08/

    And I think you don't argue nobody can escape CO, it destroyed half of the dome but it doesn't mean CO covers half of the dome, it's the aftermath of the explosion, you're safe if you aren't standing in cero's way.



    No, it doesn't disintegrate everything, did Ulquiorra say that? It's like saying Hadou #54 can disintegrate everything because it burned Grimmjow's arm.

    http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/213/15/
    If one is meant to dodge a cero, he or she must do it in one step, if he or she can possibly dodge it with more than a step, then why couldn't Yoruichi just got away when Yammy was about to fire her a cero?

    After all, she's the "Goddess of Shunpo," right? With her hand-to-hand combat skills, carrying injured Orihime to just get out of the cero would not be as much.

    That's wrong. (Nevermind, my bad.)

    Also, I've admitted my mistake of putting "miles" over one of my posts, instead of sq. miles, as I was supposed to.

    See this?

    http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/350/16/

    Additionally, the ones who are firing those humongous blasts of cero are seen as though they are action figures compared to the size of the ceros.

    http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/350/16/

    From the page above, the size of two ceros aren't fully expanded, because they collided with each other.

    As a result, a huge smoke is formed afterwards, rising up over the skies.

    http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/350/17/

    I never said it disintegrates everything like how Barragan's "respira" can degenerate any object it touches. It still has limits, I know that.

    I only said something that gets into contact with would be disintegrated. I never said that anything would get disintegrated.
    Last edited by goldhat; June 16, 2010 at 05:53 PM.

  7. #66
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    Re: Shunsui Kyouraku vs Ulquiorra Cifer

    Regardless of how a cero works, Shunsui has been dodging ceros for most of his life I would say. If Juushiro is anything to go by, he said he's seen countless ceros, and Lillynette's were below that of a menos. So I'm assuming Shunsui has seen countless amounts of ceros also. To think he wouldn't be able to dodge someone saying CERO is out of this world. He dodged Starrk's cero that was in an instant. He even said it was without a stance http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/359/02/. So how is it he couldn't dodge Ulquiorra's cero that he has to command? (cero osc.)

  8. #67
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    Re: Shunsui Kyouraku vs Ulquiorra Cifer

    Quote Originally Posted by goldhat View Post
    If one is meant to dodge a cero, he or she must do it in one step, if he or she can possibly dodge it with more than a step, then why couldn't Yoruichi just got away when Yammy was about to fire her a cero?

    After all, she's the "Goddess of Shunpo," right? With her hand-to-hand combat skills, carrying injured Orihime to just get out of the cero would not be as much.
    I guess Yoruichi was surprised and she didn't have time to pick up Orihime, she could have saved only herself but she didn't want to leave Orihime.

    Quote Originally Posted by goldhat View Post
    See this?

    http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/350/16/

    That's not an explosion. Also a cero leaves a huge smoke over the spot that it lands hit on and does not explodes as you explain here. Additionally, the ones who are firing those humongous blasts of cero are seen as though action figures compared to the size of the ceros.

    http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/350/16/

    From the page above, the size of two ceros aren't fully expanded, because they collided with each other.

    As a result, a huge smoke is formed afterwards, rising up over the skies.

    http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/350/17/

    Just because cero leaves a smoke afterwards, doesn't mean that it causes an explosion.
    What I mean by "explosion" is something like that:

    http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/382/15/

    Blast area may be much larger than a cero, this is my point.

    And no matter what, Shunsui can avoid CO, he can simply shunpo away. Shunsui dodged the cero's of Stark the cero-master, I don't think Ulquiorra can catch him with CO. Do you think CO covers such a wide area that even Shunsui's shunpo won't be enough to avoid it?

    Quote Originally Posted by goldhat View Post
    I never said it disintegrates everything like how Barragan's "respira" can degenerate any object it touches. It still has limits, I know that.

    I only said something that gets into contact with would be disintegrated. I never said that anything would get disintegrated.
    What's the difference between "something that gets into contact with would be disintegrated" and "anything that gets into contact with would be disintegrated"?

    Anyway, Ulquiorra's lanza does not disintegrate Shunsui's zanpakuto.

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    Re: Shunsui Kyouraku vs Ulquiorra Cifer

    Shunsui was intent on dodging, any attack Starrk threw at him at that point. That's all he was doing during that part of the battle. Not only that, but Starrk was mid range when he fired that cero.

    Ulquiorra cero is not only much larger, but Shunsui would have less time to dodge at close range.

    What if Shunsui went on the attack only to get hit by a cero, instead of focusing on running away like he did against Starrk, when he used his instanteanous cero?


    IMO something like this would happen: http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/340/16/
    Last edited by En Yang Ji; June 16, 2010 at 06:25 PM.

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    Re: Shunsui Kyouraku vs Ulquiorra Cifer

    - Osking is right about Ulquiorra's CO. According to Kubo it's instaneanous.

    - Also what would Shunsui do if Ulquiorra decided to explode lanza as soon as he got close?

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    Re: Shunsui Kyouraku vs Ulquiorra Cifer

    It's not instantaneous. If it were he'd point out his finger and the cero would automatically shoot. It didn't. It took time to charge and he said Cero Oscuras. That's not in an instant. Starrk stood there and said cero and it shot all in one go. No charge time, no calling cero blah blah blah, just stand and shoot. Even Shunsui remarked he had no stance. Ulquiorra had a stance, his finger pointing out and a name. Not just cero/shoot. What's hard to understand?

  12. #71
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    Re: Shunsui Kyouraku vs Ulquiorra Cifer

    - It's "manga fact" because Kubo stated it. That's why statements like Yama's statement about Shunsui's and Ukitake's strength, are taken as "manga fact", the author was speaking through Yama, right?

    Regardless of what it may appear like, Kubo said Ulquiorra's cero was instanteanous and Kubo's word is law.

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    Re: Shunsui Kyouraku vs Ulquiorra Cifer

    Quote Quote:
    Really where'd it say that? Show me where it says, Ulquiorra cero was instantaneous? It didn't. That's not manga fact.
    http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/348/22/

  14. #73
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    Re: Shunsui Kyouraku vs Ulquiorra Cifer

    Was "An Instantaneous Attack" written by Kubo or the editors?

    For example last page of chapter 402 said "Brutal Kill" but Aizen was certainly alive. There are many other such examples.

    You don't charge an instantaneous attack and Ulquiorra was obviously charging the cero:

    http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/348/21/

    Not only that but after Ulquiorra started charging his CO, Hollow Ichigo started to charge his own and successfully blocked Ulquiorra's. CO is NOT an instantaneous attack.

    On the other hand, Stark's cero guns were instantaneous, we all know how a gun works and we never saw Stark charge his ceros, did we? Not to mention the fact that it would take forever for Stark to charge 1000 ceros. Stark was able to fire instantaneous ceros even before he released:

    http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/359/02/

    Saying "Ulquiorra can spam an instantaneous attack which even a captain like Shunsui can't avoid" is unreasonable. One CO attack almost finished bankai Ichigo with mask, how many such hits do you think can Shunsui take? People made Ulquiorra R1 master of the universe, he can kill everybody by spamming this attack, can't he?

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  16. #74
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    Re: Shunsui Kyouraku vs Ulquiorra Cifer

    Quote Originally Posted by ki0 View Post
    - Osking is right about Ulquiorra's CO. According to Kubo it's instaneanous.
    No it's not. First off, Kubo does NOT write those end of chapter bitties, Shonen Jump, the magazine it's serialized in does. As evidenced by the fact that they have no clue what's going on (Ichigo vs. Aizen FINAL BATTLE anyone?).

    Secondly it very clearly has a charge time on the previous page of several seconds. There is nothing you can argue as instantaneous with that. Granted it fires instantaneously, as all cero's do, but the charge time is the killer.

    Edit: While I'm at it:

    Quote Quote:
    What if Shunsui went on the attack only to get hit by a cero, instead of focusing on running away like he did against Starrk, when he used his instanteanous cero?
    http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/363/13/
    http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/363/14/

    Granted done while a sneak attack hence Starrk was equally off guard, but Starrk's cero's fire a HELL of a lot faster than any CO, which really makes up the difference. Similarly Cero's, given their massive range, are a HELL of a lot easier to dodge closer up, as the cone of damage is much smaller, so with a patently obvious charge time that anyone and their mom can tell what's coming and his own feats here, it's entirely within the realm of possibility to dodge while on the attack for him.
    Last edited by Random101; June 16, 2010 at 07:32 PM.

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  18. #75
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    Re: Shunsui Kyouraku vs Ulquiorra Cifer

    Quote Originally Posted by Random101 View Post
    No it's not. First off, Kubo does NOT write those end of chapter bitties, Shonen Jump, the magazine it's serialized in does. As evidenced by the fact that they have no clue what's going on (Ichigo vs. Aizen FINAL BATTLE anyone?).

    Secondly it very clearly has a charge time on the previous page of several seconds. There is nothing you can argue as instantaneous with that. Granted it fires instantaneously, as all cero's do, but the charge time is the killer.

    Edit: While I'm at it:


    http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/363/13/
    http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/363/14/

    Granted done while a sneak attack hence Starrk was equally off guard, but Starrk's cero's fire a HELL of a lot faster than any CO, which really makes up the difference. Similarly Cero's, given their massive range, are a HELL of a lot easier to dodge closer up, as the cone of damage is much smaller, so with a patently obvious charge time that anyone and their mom can tell what's coming and his own feats here, it's entirely within the realm of possibility to dodge while on the attack for him.
    perfect example. That page on chapter 363 page 14 is the perfect example of Shunsui's speed. Being able to dodge an INSTANTANEOUS cero from a gun right to his face. That's some Bruce Lee reflexes. When it's animated we'll see how fast starrk's cero are out of his guns. They aren't charge and shoot, it's not a bazooka, it's a gun. Shunsui dodge a cero right to the face and smiled at the challenge that Starrk was posing to him. If anything this shows that Shunsui likes a challenge. He was playing along with Starrk and vice versa the whole time. Taking 'jabs' at eachother. To me that was the best fight in the manga. Shame on Kubo for interrupting it with WW.


    Quote Originally Posted by nicholassama View Post
    that was the point...i know i can't prove it, but instead of people proving otherwise they just scoff and yell fanboy.

    i can support my argument but i still can't prove a thing until we get clear confirmation (something yet to be provided by kubo)

    i am glad that you argued back...even if you weren't the target.
    What do you want proof of? That Yammy is still alive and bigger and badder than ever even after the slamming of Ichigo + Kenpachi + Byakuya? So 3 of the strongest shinigami and yet Yammy isn't the strongest Espada? Who is? Kenpachi beat Nnoitra by himself. Byakuya beat Zommari by himself. Ichigo beat Grimmjow by himself... but together they haven't beat Yammy.
    Last edited by freshseth83; June 16, 2010 at 07:53 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

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