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View Poll Results: Who wins

Voters
125. You may not vote on this poll
  • Shunsui wins

    73 58.40%
  • Ulquirra wins

    30 24.00%
  • the fight is pointless because Shunsui beat Stark and is proven stronger

    22 17.60%
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Thread: Shunsui Kyouraku vs Ulquiorra Cifer

  1. #181
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    Re: Shunsui Kyouraku vs Ulquiorra Cifer

    Quote Quote:
    It really isn't as clear that the damage is along a straight line, considering that the line isn't consistent with the cut. It's not perfectly straight, you can see that there has been effort in the drawing to make the left, longer line look a bit shaky. If I recall from your other forum posts, you have knowledge on at least basics of drawing in general, so you would know that if the effort was to illustrate a straight cut, the line drawn would be a sharp fast movement, leaving behind a clear edge and a perfectly straight line. Here, it isn't, you can see, as I said the shaky manner in which the line is drawn. On top of which there is a much more clear tear on the right side. The aim of the cero is also not exactly clear, we see it being charged somewhere above Ulquiorra's top half, yet Ichigonator's foot is blocking the way of the direct blast to Ulquiorra's head and part of his torso.
    I was embellishing earlier when I said perfectly straight, it's definitely rougher than that though still virtually straight (Save that one bit obviously). However the issue remains that the damage is straight regardless, and that his top half, the half targeted at mind, is completely undamaged. Keep this in mind, you are indeed correct that his foot might have protected Ulquiorra's head, but his left arm, both shoulders, even his left wing which were NOT covered by the foot, and in the wing's case especially have literally nothing that could have blocked it are virutually undamaged? The only damage he did receive being that the part of him in direct parrallel to where he was cut is simply gone (Granted it is slightly lower, but LOLWoundContinuity or possibly some regen after the fact), him not even remotely charred anywhere else? Granted Ulquiorra was needed for that absolutely stupid conclusion, but the way this was achieved makes it look pretty much exactly like the cero didn't do crap to any part of him that wasn't already cut off.

    The evidence for this conclusion is staggeringly high here, virtually straight damage completely unlike what would happen if a part of you was blasted off, no charring to any part of the remaining body, half that wasn't cut off being completely undamaged despite being the part closest to the origin of the blast including an extraneous massive limb that should by all means have been blown off first before anything underneath Ichinator's foot. That's a LOT to argue against right there, to the point that simply allowing an LOLPLOT card is a hard argument to sell. Granted Kubo is really bad at that, but in this case he actually has a valid excuse to go with here that he's got a lot of evidence supporting.

    Quote Quote:
    Also, I am compeletely unconvinced that Shunsui can deal the damage equivalent to the sword slash and that cero blast in one hit, stopping Ulquiorra from doing at least as much as he did later on with ichigonator when he regenerated his body.
    If it's Iro Oni critical hit to the torso ala Starrk, his upper and far more vital organs than those that were cut off (Well save one lung) are pretty much shredded, which he won't be able to heal and if he gets the heart he might be dead immediately though it's hard to tell. Granted GETTING that blow is going to be much harder than it was executed in that fight, but the method of damage to Iro Oni is going to be far more fatal if it's executed the same way as it was against Starrk. We're talking about completely shredding Ulquiorra's core organs here dude.

    Throw in that his tech seems to virtually ignore Hierro (Though granted that might be his sword just being of that level) and yeah, it's obviously it would be way more fatal if he executes it right. Executing it is going to be hard though.

    Quote Quote:
    I don't know, but I would say that there would need to be an immense energy attack to even reach him.
    You mean like getting caught in the core of his Lanza? Ie: An immense energy attack. Granted I get where you're coming from, but Ulquiorra had a clear reluctance to let that thing off near him. For someone as literally emotionless as him, that suggests a huge risk to himself. Granted he might be better off, LOLHIERRO, but the risk is still going to be there, because he pretty much outright says there is one.

    Quote Quote:
    Oh and one last thing, I'm not sure I remember how Kage Oni works when it meets the colour not called out. The damage seemed to be minimal, so I'm not sure how exactly it would cleave through other colours.
    Iro Oni. And Shunsui states "It won't work" or something along those lines. Also you kinda missed the point of that, Shunsui's sword is huge. Cleaving through an arm to get to the core body is well within the realm of possibility if he's close enough, and Iro Oni seems to virtually ignore defense and the laws of reality given how effortlessly it went through Starrk. It's Ulquiorra's wings that are best for defending, as their size easily grants him enough distance to keep the sword the hell away. Though admittedly it also allows Shunsui a cover of sorts for LOLBACKSTAB, but given Ulquiorra has his sensory thing active or some nonsense that's probably not reliable.

    This is of course why I say that it's going to take some doing, Shunsui's not going to be having an easy time in shikai.

    Quote Quote:
    Oh and can Shunsui combine his games the way you're suggesting? I think he only used one game at a time. I could be wrong though, I don't remember.
    This is my conclusion too. If they can be used in conjunction, ie: Iro Oni while in a shadow via Kage Oni, Shunsui takes it comfortably. Might still be a little rough, but he has a method for a critical hit within Ulquiorra's defenses easily available. Without that though Kage Oni isn't quite enough for an irrefutable kill, and executing Iro Oni for the necessary lethal blow will require CQC which is not going to be easy.

  2. #182
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    Re: Shunsui Kyouraku vs Ulquiorra Cifer

    Quote Originally Posted by Random101 View Post
    I was embellishing earlier when I said perfectly straight, it's definitely rougher than that though still virtually straight (Save that one bit obviously). However the issue remains that the damage is straight regardless, and that his top half, the half targeted at mind, is completely undamaged. Keep this in mind, you are indeed correct that his foot might have protected Ulquiorra's head, but his left arm, both shoulders, even his left wing which were NOT covered by the foot, and in the wing's case especially have literally nothing that could have blocked it are virutually undamaged? The only damage he did receive being that the part of him in direct parrallel to where he was cut is simply gone (Granted it is slightly lower, but LOLWoundContinuity or possibly some regen after the fact), him not even remotely charred anywhere else? Granted Ulquiorra was needed for that absolutely stupid conclusion, but the way this was achieved makes it look pretty much exactly like the cero didn't do crap to any part of him that wasn't already cut off.
    Well even if I were to agree on this, what conclusion would we draw from there? I'm not sure how it would project onto this fight, because weakening hierro in one part would seem to only do good if there is a huge blast coming afterwards. Like a, softener of sorts, to make the blast more effective? But shunsui doesn't really have that kind of attack, so I'm not sure where this is headed anyway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Random101 View Post
    If it's Iro Oni critical hit to the torso ala Starrk, his upper and far more vital organs than those that were cut off (Well save one lung) are pretty much shredded, which he won't be able to heal and if he gets the heart he might be dead immediately though it's hard to tell. Granted GETTING that blow is going to be much harder than it was executed in that fight, but the method of damage to Iro Oni is going to be far more fatal if it's executed the same way as it was against Starrk. We're talking about completely shredding Ulquiorra's core organs here dude.
    Do we actually know what happened with Starrk though? How does hollow inner metabolism works? I mean, do they get dropped by heart attacks and such? As far as I remember, the only referrence to the organ thing was given by Ulquiorra. He suggested that they do indeed need organs to function, but I'm not sure if that is what dropped Starrk. Starrk had a crack accross his hierro, but if I remember well, it was his hollow hole that got cleaved. (I could be mixing stuff up here though, I can't check the manga right now)


    Quote Originally Posted by Random101 View Post
    You mean like getting caught in the core of his Lanza? Ie: An immense energy attack. Granted I get where you're coming from, but Ulquiorra had a clear reluctance to let that thing off near him. For someone as literally emotionless as him, that suggests a huge risk to himself. Granted he might be better off, LOLHIERRO, but the risk is still going to be there, because he pretty much outright says there is one.
    There is some danger, I'm sure, but I think he would be better off in that explosion. I mean, Ichigo was standing at like, 20 m away. Lanza's explosion would definitely hit Ulquiorra as well, yet he seemed to be confident enough to hit the guy at that distance. Maybe the impact itself, or the small radius of the explosion is the deadliest or something. Still, I think Hitsu and Hallibel will be worse off in that exchange.


    Quote Originally Posted by Random101 View Post
    Iro Oni. And Shunsui states "It won't work" or something along those lines. Also you kinda missed the point of that, Shunsui's sword is huge. Cleaving through an arm to get to the core body is well within the realm of possibility if he's close enough, and Iro Oni seems to virtually ignore defense and the laws of reality given how effortlessly it went through Starrk. It's Ulquiorra's wings that are best for defending, as their size easily grants him enough distance to keep the sword the hell away. Though admittedly it also allows Shunsui a cover of sorts for LOLBACKSTAB, but given Ulquiorra has his sensory thing active or some nonsense that's probably not reliable.
    Lol yes, Iro Oni, I meant to say both things so I mixed it up. The sword is pretty big, and Shunsui's reiatsu seems to be giving it quite a nice edge too, but in Iro Oni, cuts on the color not called are miniscule. No way will Ulqui's arm be lopped off if that is in play. I have doubts whether or not would Shunsui cut completely through even if he attacked normally, let alone with circumstances of the game.


    Quote Originally Posted by Random101 View Post
    This is my conclusion too. If they can be used in conjunction, ie: Iro Oni while in a shadow via Kage Oni, Shunsui takes it comfortably. Might still be a little rough, but he has a method for a critical hit within Ulquiorra's defenses easily available. Without that though Kage Oni isn't quite enough for an irrefutable kill, and executing Iro Oni for the necessary lethal blow will require CQC which is not going to be easy.
    Aye, I agree. If the games can be combined, I would definitely change my vote to Shunsui. Even if Ulquiorra doubled in power, without a hax of his own, he is getting pwnd. But I guess we'll just have to wait and see if Shunsui starts combining his games (I wanna see more games and more details ><)
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  3. #183
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    Re: Shunsui Kyouraku vs Ulquiorra Cifer

    Yeah, cero's probably moot anyway, best to drop that line of thought. >>

    Quote Quote:
    Do we actually know what happened with Starrk though? How does hollow inner metabolism works? I mean, do they get dropped by heart attacks and such? As far as I remember, the only referrence to the organ thing was given by Ulquiorra. He suggested that they do indeed need organs to function, but I'm not sure if that is what dropped Starrk. Starrk had a crack accross his hierro, but if I remember well, it was his hollow hole that got cleaved. (I could be mixing stuff up here though, I can't check the manga right now)
    http://www.mangareader.net/94-33754-...apter-375.html He's literally cracking appart, explodes with blood far worse than virtually anyone in the series save perhaps Hitsugaya. That one blow to the hollow hole (I assume given literally NOTHING else is black) literally shredded his torso. Give Shunsui white with his captain's cloak on and he'd probably do far worse to Ulquiorra, given most of his upper body is white.

    Quote Quote:
    There is some danger, I'm sure, but I think he would be better off in that explosion. I mean, Ichigo was standing at like, 20 m away. Lanza's explosion would definitely hit Ulquiorra as well, yet he seemed to be confident enough to hit the guy at that distance. Maybe the impact itself, or the small radius of the explosion is the deadliest or something. Still, I think Hitsu and Hallibel will be worse off in that exchange.
    Most of the explosion appears to go up (Seriously, that thing goes hella high), and Ichigo was above him. I assume that's why he wasn't too unsure. Also why bring in those two?

    Quote Quote:
    Lol yes, Iro Oni, I meant to say both things so I mixed it up. The sword is pretty big, and Shunsui's reiatsu seems to be giving it quite a nice edge too, but in Iro Oni, cuts on the color not called are miniscule. No way will Ulqui's arm be lopped off if that is in play. I have doubts whether or not would Shunsui cut completely through even if he attacked normally, let alone with circumstances of the game.
    I think you're missing my point. Let me put it this way, if Shunsui slashes Ulquiorra in close range, his slash will likely go through his arm (Again, Iro Oni seems to virtually ignore defenses and reality with it's cutting), and the tip of his sword will likely connect with his torso. Assuming he calls white, Ie: A color Ulquiorra's arms don't have, his arms are going to be undamaged by the slash, because there's no white there and his swords screw reality hard. However the damage that hits his torso will be amplified (Assuming he's in captain's cloak form), leading to, possibly, a critical hit depending how deep he gets it. Similar to how a little cut from Starrk amplified many times over, and Starrk's color pallet is a hell of a lot more varied in distribution. That's basically my point. Sacrificing your arms is worthless if the blade will still reach your torso anyway, as it potentially ignores the arms entirely. The wings are his best bet, as the sheer range they have easily keeps the swords reach from hitting anything dangerous.

  4. #184
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Xsoteria's Avatar
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    Re: Shunsui Kyouraku vs Ulquiorra Cifer

    [QUOTE=Random101;2165857]Most of the explosion appears to go up (Seriously, that thing goes hella high), and Ichigo was above him. I assume that's why he wasn't too unsure. Also why bring in those two?

    Lol I mixed up threads. Was thinking for the moment this was H&H vs Ulq & Ichigo.

    Even if we do disagree about the radius of the thing, surely you don't think that the distance between Ichigo as the center of the explosion is small enough to not reach Ulqui o_O. They were like, 50 meters away or something.


    Quote Originally Posted by Random101 View Post
    I think you're missing my point. Let me put it this way, if Shunsui slashes Ulquiorra in close range, his slash will likely go through his arm (Again, Iro Oni seems to virtually ignore defenses and reality with it's cutting), and the tip of his sword will likely connect with his torso. Assuming he calls white, Ie: A color Ulquiorra's arms don't have, his arms are going to be undamaged by the slash, because there's no white there and his swords screw reality hard. However the damage that hits his torso will be amplified (Assuming he's in captain's cloak form), leading to, possibly, a critical hit depending how deep he gets it. Similar to how a little cut from Starrk amplified many times over, and Starrk's color pallet is a hell of a lot more varied in distribution. That's basically my point. Sacrificing your arms is worthless if the blade will still reach your torso anyway, as it potentially ignores the arms entirely. The wings are his best bet, as the sheer range they have easily keeps the swords reach from hitting anything dangerous.
    Iro Oni ignores reality only on the colour called (well techincally other colours are affected but in a completely opposite manner). I don't understand why you think that it will do enough damage to his arm to cleave through it, when it's black? It's supposed to do damage much lesser than normal, since it's not the called colour. You are assuming that the damage to his arms will be small, yet it will cleave through his arm and go straight for the torso (which will be devastating sure), but what I'm saying is that the arm will protect the torso? Are we miscommunicating here?
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  5. #185
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    Re: Shunsui Kyouraku vs Ulquiorra Cifer

    Quote Quote:
    Even if we do disagree about the radius of the thing, surely you don't think that the distance between Ichigo as the center of the explosion is small enough to not reach Ulqui o_O. They were like, 50 meters away or something.
    Depends on how the thing explodes. If it explodes outwards from he point of contact (think of the front end like a cero ball firing outward or something), Ulquiorra would have been pretty safe where he was, being below him and all. I'm not saying the blast radius is small, I'm saying pretty much all of it goes upwards. If that's the case, than below is about as safe as it can get.

    Quote Quote:
    Iro Oni ignores reality only on the colour called (well techincally other colours are affected but in a completely opposite manner). I don't understand why you think that it will do enough damage to his arm to cleave through it, when it's black? It's supposed to do damage much lesser than normal, since it's not the called colour. You are assuming that the damage to his arms will be small, yet it will cleave through his arm and go straight for the torso (which will be devastating sure), but what I'm saying is that the arm will protect the torso? Are we miscommunicating here?
    Shunsui completely cut through Starrk's arm despite calling grey, the damage 'left behind' was a scratch yes, but he still cut completely through it. Imagine the same thing with Ulquiorra, only in addition to cutting through Ulquiorra's arm attempting to block, Shunsui also nicked his torso because his blade is that big. The damage on Ulquiorra's arm would be nonexistent yes, but the damage to the torso would be amplified.

    It does damage much lesser than normal to the arm itself yes, but that doesn't change the fact that his sword will still cleave straight through it. And if he hits his torso in the process of cleaving straight through it, ergo causing damage in multiple areas with that same swing, that's a decent chance for a critical hit. That's the logic behind Iro Oni.

  6. #186
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Xsoteria's Avatar
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    Re: Shunsui Kyouraku vs Ulquiorra Cifer

    The way I remember it, was that you cannot cut the colour you didn't call (or that the damage will be insignificant), but the colour you call will be obliterated. So it makes sense to me that he wont be able to cut through the arm to get to the torso. Yeah the sword is big, but if you're protecting from it, the angle of the sword if your arm is raised wont let the sword come down to the torso.

    So I hope you understand why I think it wont cut through the arm in the game. However, I'm not quite sure, and I'll have to reread the Starrk fight, but I can't do that tonight, since I'm on my phone. I'll know what to tell you for sure about this tomorrow.
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    Re: Shunsui Kyouraku vs Ulquiorra Cifer

    When Shunsui called grey, he cut completely through Starrk's arm like butter. The damage left behind from this blow however was a tiny scratch. Shunsui's blade is a reality warper, blocking it with your arm in that state won't do a lick of good, it'll still go through. All that's variable is the damage left behind by it going through, which changes depending on the color among other factors. It's highly unusual yes, but that's the nature of a reality warping technique.

    This is basically my point, thanks to that we know that using an arm to block regardless of the color won't do any good, he'll just cut through it anyway. How much damage is left however depends on the color used. In order to block adequately he'd need something that can increase the distance to far more than Shunsui's blade in length, which thankfully his wings cover.

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    Re: Shunsui Kyouraku vs Ulquiorra Cifer

    Quote Originally Posted by Random101 View Post
    Shunsui completely cut through Starrk's arm despite calling grey, the damage 'left behind' was a scratch yes, but he still cut completely through it.
    Interesting, this is the first time I realized that. After looking at the pictures, it indeed seems that Shunsui's sword cut through Stark's arm but the damage was minimal. This is why Stark said he felt like his arm got cut off. So if you attack a color that you didn't call, it will be like attacking an incorporeal spirit.

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    Re: Shunsui Kyouraku vs Ulquiorra Cifer

    Basically. When dealing with a reality warping tech conventional logic doesn't exactly fly. Which is also why they tend to be so terrifying. Course in Shunsui's case it could be good or bad depending how his cards are played, his entire arsenal is basically a gamble.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Xsoteria's Avatar
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    Re: Shunsui Kyouraku vs Ulquiorra Cifer

    I looked at the pictures now and the sword really did went through Starrks arm! This completely missed me until now. But that was Shunsui calling grey and hitting grey, I'm not sure what are you basing your opinion that the sword would pass through anything, regardless of colour.

    I'll tell you how I first saw it, so you correct me where you see fit, ok? When I read it the first time, I was thinking that the fact that Shunsui called grey meant he could only cut the gray colour on Starrk, and that since he had no grey on him, he inflicted not so much damage. But due to the rules of the game where one's cut on the called colour is amplified - the damage felt for Starrk seemed much more grievous.

    Now, if you're right, then this would be a really interesting twist to my understanding of the technique, since the fact that "he can't cut anything other than the called colour" would not mean that the blade would simply bounce away from other colours, or not cut them, or do reduced damage or something, it would mean the blade doesn't affect anything other than that colour. Which is a lot more dangerous, and could possibly shift my vote, or at least push me towards a draw in this fight.

    But I'm curious about the part where the sword would not affect other colours, where it would completely pass through them. Was there any other situation or picture where that theory would find support? Because it's rather unclear what would actually happen when sword met the uncalled colour.

    EDIT - http://mangable.com/bleach/chapter-374/15/ Just a few pages later they are fighting and blocking each other's swords, I'm not sure whether the Iro Oni game is still on? If it is, that would mean that they are blocking each other's blows, and the sword doesn't go through? Though that could be explained with the fact that their swords aren't part of their body so damage can't be inflicted there... Hmm. I'm really curious now.
    Last edited by Xsoteria; November 11, 2010 at 03:24 PM.
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    Re: Shunsui Kyouraku vs Ulquiorra Cifer

    The part where it goes through other colors is the finishing blow, Iro Oni Black. Keep in mind Starrk has literally no black on him in the area Shunsui slashed, the only thing substantially 'black' near his torso is his hollow hole. Yet the blow pretty much went through his entire chest here given how close he was to him and the length of his blade: http://mangable.com/bleach/chapter-374/19/

    It couldn't have possibly been stopped by, say, the ample amounts of not black on his torso there by pure logical extension of what happened, ergo it still goes through. Won't damage of course, but given our line of discussion this is all we really need.

    That being said the rules of the game stipulate you must hit a color on your opponent, so I heavily doubt a sword is considered 'on your opponent' so much as being held by your opponent, though it may just be standard spirit sword logic for Bleach. By extension however Ulquiorra's lance is blocking blows, which I never argued against, it's just his limbs that are going to be a bad idea.

    Except, again, the wings. They're actually large enough to get enough distance to stop the critical blow.

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    Re: Shunsui Kyouraku vs Ulquiorra Cifer

    Quote Originally Posted by Random101 View Post
    The part where it goes through other colors is the finishing blow, Iro Oni Black. Keep in mind Starrk has literally no black on him in the area Shunsui slashed, the only thing substantially 'black' near his torso is his hollow hole. Yet the blow pretty much went through his entire chest here given how close he was to him and the length of his blade: http://mangable.com/bleach/chapter-374/19/

    It couldn't have possibly been stopped by, say, the ample amounts of not black on his torso there by pure logical extension of what happened, ergo it still goes through. Won't damage of course, but given our line of discussion this is all we really need.
    You're completely right. It wouldn't have hit the hole if non-black colours were not "cuttable", instead it had to have gone through the white part surrounding the hole and only then damage the colour called.

    That's really an eyeopener, I must admit. I had some trouble figuring this out, since my perception of the battle was different for so long that changing it required someone to guide me step by step with some pictures lol. Thanks.

    So this turns out to be a lot more difficult fight for Ulquiorra than I first imagined. Normally, Ulquiorra's limbs would provide ample protection but Shunsui's ability is a really bad match. The only defense he now has is melee Lanza and potentially his wings, if used properly.

    I'm curious about one more thing though. Seeing as how ethereal Shunsui's attacks have been could it be that the opponent would have the same ability? Like, that the rules allow for their attacks to go through uncalled colours without inflicting damage, not just Shunsui's swords. Because it would be weird and not really in line with the rules, if say Starrk's attack could cut the colour he didn't call (ie his attack not being ethereal in the same way Shunsui's is)? (I hope you can untangle what I was trying to ask here lol)
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    Re: Shunsui Kyouraku vs Ulquiorra Cifer

    Yeah, the rules for the games (Save for weird things like his wind attack) are implied to work both ways for both combatants. Granted we don't have much to support this, Stark only got one blow in on a single color that he called, but it's a pretty safe bet.

    Of course this is frankly a good thing for a Shinigami in battles with an opponent who isn't staggeringly weaker than him, given shinigami don't have hierro, and the blows would probably have actually cut through regardless. Blocking with a sword is really the only reliable way to actually block a blow for Shinigami in closer matchups.

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Primecut's Avatar
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    Re: Shunsui Kyouraku vs Ulquiorra Cifer

    Well, even if Shunsui busts out his little game nothing is stopping Ulquiorra from using a Lanza at close range. Ulquiorra can regenerate from it, old Shunsui cant...

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
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    Re: Shunsui Kyouraku vs Ulquiorra Cifer

    Shunsui states that you can only cut the color you call, and that the damage is representative of the color you have on. In other words, the more of said color on you called, the more the damage. He wears what colors? Black and white mostly. He calls the game and says black after throwing off his captains coat, now he's wearing ALL black. And strikes Ulquiorra, kills him. That's all it'd really take. No regeneration when his internal organs are destroyed. He didn't have to explain the rules to Starrk, but he did. Who says he's going to tell Ulquiorra the rules?

    Get this, since he can cut a color that he wears, he can say Irooni, White, and slice ulquiorra's head off also. If Ulquiorra tries to block it does it matter? Seeing as how KK went right through Starrks arm but didn't even cut it off.

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