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Thread: Sasuke's crusade: Justified or Not

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    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity ashher's Avatar
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    Sasuke's crusade: Justified or Not

    special thanks goes to jdw

    Let me allow to copy-paste a post of mine from hangout:


    Quote Originally Posted by jdw View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ashher View Post
    i don't think that if it turns out like that danzo killed them for treason would make it any less righteous for sasuke to avange his clan.his clan was turned into a dominion of konoha and to sasuke it would be like uchihas fought for their deserved freedom and place.
    Let us assume that treason is a crime in Konoha, just for the sake of argument. The Uchiha clan, as a founding entity, may have played a role in the direction of the village. If we make an analogy, it would be like family of a criminal taking revenge against the people who gave justice for the comissions of the crime, if it was justice. It cannot be justice to hand out punichment for crimes, and then justice for the loved ones of those who were punished to punish those who handed out justice. More simply, in an imperfect example:

    * Man is robbed, he reports crime, thief arrested & jailed.
    * Loved ones of the thief want to kill robbery victim & police for taking away their loved one.


    It would make much more sense in terms of Sasuke's revenge if the Uchiha clan was not in fact rebelling.
    the reasons i think it would be justified for sasuke to continue his hunt against konoha even if it turns out that uchihas were punished for treason:

    1.the village konoha was established on the basis of equality among all the clans,that naturally means anyone worthy from any clan can become hokage or serve in any position.but the uchihas were from the time of 2nd hokage (according to madara) pushed into the special police force so that they can be kept under watch.that is what makes them a second class citizen actually.this is unjust and totally opposed to the agreement between uchiha and senju.So one would be quite right and justified to think that senjus and their followers(konoha nins) used the treaty and the village as a way to push uchiha down in shrewd underhanded way.this unfair treatment that uchiha got reached the lowest limit after kyuubi fight,when they were put in a secluded corner of the village.basically they became like a colony of konoha.

    2.so the 'treason' was more than treason.in our world many countries of present were colonies of powers like england,france and many times rebellions occurred in those parts.And many times rebels failed and were executed and their act was called treason by the colonizing government.Now can we actually call those freedom figters mere criminals for wanting to establish their proper rights?this is the same with uchiha incidence.

    3.in case someone wants to counter the above point saying that uchihas were not fighting for creating another country/homeland,rather was trying to usurp the power of the present system and state,then i would like to say that very often in history fight for independence has actually begun from attempts at correcting the present system.for example,my country Bangladesh was colony of pakistan under the name of east pakistan.actually when pakistan was established it was popular among ppl of this part and we called it our homeland (like the first uchihas who voted for konoha and thought konoha to be their home).However soon ppl of these parts were discriminated against (like uchihas were),and then attempts began to take place from here to correct the situation in pakistan,and when as the attempts kept failing,ppl here started to feel that pakistan is no longer their home and finally a a new nationalism grew which resulted into a new home/country.the uchiha rebellion was still prolly at the stage of 'correcting the present state' ie. konoha through a coup.

    4.However after the incidence,the remaining uchiha,sasuke is now at the last stage.he can't in any way call konoha,the entity responsible for double-crossing,colonizing and finally eradicating Uhiha his home/or the home of the future uchiha that he wants to revive.

    So imo,we can hardly compare Sasuke to revenge wanting sibling of a mere criminal.he is actually the second generation of an oppressed nation (clan in naruto).Just because the first generation was thwarted by the colonizing power and was labeled as traitors and criminals for treason,doesn't make them mere criminals and justify their execution even if that is the punishment for treason from the point of justice (you know law and justice can often be contradictory,for example jutice was served when US was freed from England,but surely that was great crime according to the law of the then England).

    so in a nutshell,danzo's actions and uchiha execution might be justified according to konoha law,but that will never be justified from uchiha point of view,and from a neutral point of view(ie the reader's view) the latter should be felt as the right one as we can see that uchihas indeed were decieved and turned into second class citizens by konoha.

    Edit: i am adding a later post of mine here for the sake of clarity:
    Quote Quote:
    lets try and clear this once and for all
    there have been 3 questions of importance when we think about "justification" of sasuke's revenge:

    1.was it understandable when he chose to avenge his clan,or would it have been more realistic if he had decided to follow itachi?(taking things that happened in manga upto the decision made by sasuke)

    2.if wanting revenge was thus justified,then who should have been the target?only danzo and the culprits behind it?or the whole konoha?
    once again i must ask u take into consideration of such ideals as nationalism and dealings between 2 nations,instead of being just bookishly self-righteous and uptight and take into consideration what usually happens in reality in this type of cases.
    so here u must also consider whether its a mere personal revenge or a war between 2 nations uchiha and konoha?

    3.i never expected this to be a question when i opened this thread,but it seems to become the most talked about topic:how should sasuke deal with the non-konoha persons?and what about civilians and those who surrender?
    the reason i felt this question is of no value because in war there is no value,morality.i mean if u decide on the previous question that it indeed is more than a personal revenge and actually the last act of uchiha vs senju/konoha ancient war,then it is unrealistic and naive to expect that sauske will have special consideration for these ppl,particularly when his own clan/nation didn't receive an ounce of such morality.
    Last edited by ashher; December 29, 2009 at 02:18 PM.

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    Registered User 初心者/ Shoshinsha / Beginner SketchyPhoenix's Avatar
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    Re: Sasuke's crusade: Justified or Not

    http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showt...14#post1707414

    That pretty much covers this question of justification as well.
    Spoiler show

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member SuperSaiyaMan's Avatar
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    Re: Sasuke's crusade: Justified or Not

    Nothing justifies Sasuke wanting to kill people who weren't even involved in the massacre, including his old friends/ The Elders? Fine. They caused the damn mess. But everyone else? Nope.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member niblack89's Avatar
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    Re: Sasuke's crusade: Justified or Not

    Nothing is a justification of what Sasuke is doing. Itachi saved his life making him the only survivor of the Uchihia clan giving him the legacy of the Uchihia clan. Itachi then made him strive to become stronger. In the end Itachi knew Sasuke would never kill his best friend to gain MS. He made it so after his death he would achieve his MS. He wanted sasuke o get ride of Orouchamaru's corrupt power so he can gain MS on his own increasing his own power. I believe Itachi wanted him to gain his own eyes after he did so Itachi could be his light.

    Him doing all this sasuke is tarnishing the name of his brother. Itachi forgave the leaf in giving information out and for not capturing Naruto. Itachi saw this happening and created another fail safe within Naruto. Killing Danzo isn't going that far. He did secretly kill some samari but no one special Bee wasn't captured and no kage was harmed or injured. It would still take Sasuke to do something really impressive to come back.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Gingitsune's Avatar
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    Re: Sasuke's crusade: Justified or Not

    I wouldn't take everything Madara says for facts. Nidaime could have had other goals to give the Uchiha the responsability of the police forces, like keep in check the Senju's most radical elements. And as police forces, the Uchiha may have information against Danzou, they could have known how much crimes he and his supporters commited against Konoha's individual, but did have enough evidences to arrest him. So they decide to kill him, even if it means to put Konoha in chaos for the greater good. Madara wants to pit Sasuke against Naruto, he'll say what must be said to get his fight. Talking of which, he's the only one to say Kyuubi happened to pass by Konoha, Jiraiya, Minato and Itachi all said Madara summoned the monster.

    Anyway, Sasuke joining Akatsuki is immoral, what's the point to stick with Madara, who admit he gleefully seconded Itachi in slaugthering the Uchiha, to kill a guy who simply gave the orders that lead to the massacre? If it was that important for Sasuke to get revenge for the clan, he should have stick to his original plan, and kill the mysterious guy who helped Itachi that night.

    From the moment he associated himself with Madara, Sasuke lost any moral high ground to become a mad man.

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    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity NAM61's Avatar
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    Re: Sasuke's crusade: Justified or Not

    maybe but i think there is more to the story then madara let on. i think there are other reasons to the massacre.

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    Re: Sasuke's crusade: Justified or Not

    Justified? No.

    Understandable? Heck yes. From a guy who's named himself an avenger from day one, it's unsurprising that once he failed to avenge the uchiha clan (since Itachi's hand was forced), he would continue pursuing justice for the uchiha clan, which requires him to become more and more powerful, which has plunged him into darkness (and into manipulation by madara). Sasuke has a one-track mind, he's gonna stop at nothing, at this point I think Naruto will have to kill Sasuke in the end as that's how bad it is.
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    Re: Sasuke's crusade: Justified or Not

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperSaiyaMan View Post
    Nothing justifies Sasuke wanting to kill people who weren't even involved in the massacre, including his old friends/ The Elders? Fine. They caused the damn mess. But everyone else? Nope.
    ^This. We can argue about whether it's OK for Sasuke to kill the elders. I mean, Danzō is kind of a prick. No one's gonna miss him. But Sasuke wants to kill all of Konohagakure. What gives him the right to kill all the people who weren't involved? Who knew just as much as he did (i.e. nothing)?

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    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member Nmaster's Avatar
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    Re: Sasuke's crusade: Justified or Not

    sasuke now is insane he know that and don't care you have any relation to konoha prepare to die.

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    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted THM Nindo's Avatar
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    Re: Sasuke's crusade: Justified or Not

    I have nothing against Sasuke killing Danzou and the Elders...
    But annihilating Konoha cannot be justified.

    The only way I can somewhat reason this is : "The current Ninja way is the cause of Itachi's death"...

    So, in a way, both Naruto and him would want to change the ninja way...
    One peacefully, one with destruction...


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    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted zerocooldx's Avatar
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    Re: Sasuke's crusade: Justified or Not

    Well first of all the example/analogy given with the thief and police just utterly fails because it conveniently leaves out betrayal and death and etc. And sub's in incapacitation for some strange and unknown reason. So it's essentially an overly simplistic, and rather deceitful, analogy of apples and oranges.

    And secondly everyone likes to act "high and mighty" and advocate doing the "right thing". And that is understandable i suppose, but there comes a point where you have to walk a mile in someone's shoes before passing judgement. And obvious doing that in this scenario would be nearly impossible. But i think anyone can even slightly imagine that loosing your entire family to murder/conspiracy would feel like. And basically nothing, absolutely nothing, was done to prevent that or punish the person responsible for it. As a matter of fact that ones who supposedly "enforce the justice" were apparently in on the murders. And allowed the situation to take place.

    So its very understandable why "justice" would become nothing more than a mirage to Sasuke. The "system" miserably failed, and even conspired to take lives. And when that happens you can either mope about it or do something about it. And when it comes to family, avenging them or what not takes center stage above all else. Sasuke's family is all he has ever had, it's the only thing he ever cared for. And because once again, if "justice" was so great and important/prevalent, then the entire situation would have never happened in the first place. It's easy to pick out a single person and blame them yet let the system off the hook.

    I'm not saying Sasuke should go and slaughter anyone and everyone he wants to. But if the people that knowingly or unknowingly try to prevent him from killing the elders then they become free game. Because ignorance is not an excuse, never has been and never will be. So not knowing what the elders/Danzou did is no valid reason to defend or fight for anyone. Because once again, that comes back upon the ones at the top and them not letting people know what happened. They clearly chose their secrets, and to protect themselves, over protecting those around them. Secrets rot the soul, and Konoha is slowly rotting to it's very core.

    So if "justice" means biting the bullet and "forgiving/moving on" and letting someone else deal with it. Then what Sasuke is doing is the exact opposite of "justice". But when that so called "justice" has failed you at every step of the way in your life then there is no reason as to why you should conform to that "justice". "Justice" is a two way street, and for Sasuke it's been nothing other than a one way street. That has conveniently been stacked up against him before he even knew the street existed.

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    MH Senpai 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Drmke's Avatar
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    Re: Sasuke's crusade: Justified or Not

    He is certainly not justified but it is understandable that he would want revenge. But this doesn't mean what he is doing is "right". Its all really a matter of perspective.

    The elders, at least the ones besides Danzou, probably honestly thought that the Uchihas were a serious threat to the welfare of Konoha. While you could argue that there must have been a better way of dealing with the situation.

    As there is no such thing as actually "justice", nothing can truly be justified. Its all perspective like I said. Sasuke is doing what he feels is right. Can't blame him. Though he should still be punished under the law of Konoha as a rogue ninja like any other ninja would be.


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    Re: Sasuke's crusade: Justified or Not

    Quote Originally Posted by zerocooldx View Post
    I'm not saying Sasuke should go and slaughter anyone and everyone he wants to. But if the people that knowingly or unknowingly try to prevent him from killing the elders then they become free game. Because ignorance is not an excuse, never has been and never will be. So not knowing what the elders/Danzou did is no valid reason to defend or fight for anyone. Because once again, that comes back upon the ones at the top and them not letting people know what happened. They clearly chose their secrets, and to protect themselves, over protecting those around them. Secrets rot the soul, and Konoha is slowly rotting to it's very core.
    This is a terrible justification. It's also not true, Sasuke is planning to destroy the entire village.

    Quote Quote:
    So if "justice" means biting the bullet and "forgiving/moving on" and letting someone else deal with it. Then what Sasuke is doing is the exact opposite of "justice". But when that so called "justice" has failed you at every step of the way in your life then there is no reason as to why you should conform to that "justice". "Justice" is a two way street, and for Sasuke it's been nothing other than a one way street. That has conveniently been stacked up against him before he even knew the street existed.
    In what world in genocide an acceptable form of justice?

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    The Original 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member thornofcarrion's Avatar
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    Re: Sasuke's crusade: Justified or Not

    In my humblest opinion, Sasuke's crusade is totally not convincing. I know what happened to him, his family, and his kin was cruel. But, how can he not see what Itachi intended for him. Itachi was in a living hell and even in his death, he sacrificed all for the sake of Sasuke. All of Itachi's sacrifices and suffering was nullified by Sasuke's pursuit of revenge. IIRC, he was never so passionate about Uchiha till the point he knew the truth about Itachi. Now, he want to revive Uchiha clan and whatever. Seems to me an excuse to exact revenge and show off his powers.

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    Re: Sasuke's crusade: Justified or Not

    Revenge is never justified. Violence never justifies violence, neither from a moral or legal point of view.

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