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Thread: Rikudō Sennin's tablet and Madara's misconception

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Yondaime Uzumaki's Avatar
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    Rikudō Sennin's tablet and Madara's misconception

    OK, here we go. So I'm reading over old chapters and something is bothering me. It's about this tablet that Madara spoke of. It just doesn't make sense. Why would the Rikudō Sennin leave a tablet that can only be read by someone with an eye power? His heir doesn't have a doujutsu, so why? It's obvious that he didn't want the juubi coming back, but leaving something like that for someone that you don't see fit to be your heir directly contradicts that idea. Just think about it, if Madara wouldn't had felt the need to explain then no one other than Pain, Sasuke, and Madara would ever know.

    This is where I think that Madara may have been mistaken. I think that someone with the Sage's "body", as opposed to his "eyes", is also able to read it, maybe even read more than was originally thought to be on the tablet. Who knows, maybe the Yasakani Jewel could even be sealed inside of it(but that's neither here nor there).

    I think that the tablet may have already been read by someone other than a Sharingan or Rinnegan user. That person could've been Harashima Senju. He was said to have multiple tailed beast but he separated them and, in an act of good faith, gave them to other country to equalize the powers between nations. But what if he had alterior motives? What if he separated the bijuu because he foresaw the possibility of someone actually trying to bring the juubi back, after reading what was on the tablet? Anyway, it's just a thought. Tell me what you think.

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    Re: Rikudō Sennin's tablet and Madara's misconception

    Quote Quote:
    His heir doesn't have a doujutsu
    look at this, the Rikudo Sennin had to sons, oldest with his "eyes" and the youngest with his "body"
    http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/462/12/

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    Re: Rikudō Sennin's tablet and Madara's misconception

    yea,and he picked the younger one as his heir "who doesnt possess doujutsu"

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    Re: Rikudō Sennin's tablet and Madara's misconception

    Well one thing that's odd is that the Tsuchikage hints that Madara read all of the tablet(since he had both a Sharingan and a Rin'negan at his disposition) yet I don't recall Pain/Nagato ever mentioning that they went to visit Konoha to read a tablet and Madara didn't sneak it away since Sasuke read the tablet recently(well in the last 10 years that is).

    So the question is how exactly does one with "a body" read a tablet. The doujutsu thing is half logical since reading has something to do with the eyes, but what does a "body" do to read? Maybe you need to activate special chakra next to the tablet for it to display something else?

    Also, one could wonder what would be left to read on the tablet that a Rin'negan user couldn't read. A way to seal the Juubi is the only thing I could guess.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Yondaime Uzumaki's Avatar
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    Re: Rikudō Sennin's tablet and Madara's misconception

    Quote Originally Posted by Forever_Melody View Post
    Well one thing that's odd is that the Tsuchikage hints that Madara read all of the tablet(since he had both a Sharingan and a Rin'negan at his disposition) yet I don't recall Pain/Nagato ever mentioning that they went to visit Konoha to read a tablet and Madara didn't sneak it away since Sasuke read the tablet recently(well in the last 10 years that is).

    So the question is how exactly does one with "a body" read a tablet. The doujutsu thing is half logical since reading has something to do with the eyes, but what does a "body" do to read? Maybe you need to activate special chakra next to the tablet for it to display something else?

    Also, one could wonder what would be left to read on the tablet that a Rin'negan user couldn't read. A way to seal the Juubi is the only thing I could guess.
    That is the first time I've ever seen someone ask two completely different questions and answer both of them in a single post. Kudos. To add to the last statement, there are so many unknown aspects of juubi and the Rikudo Sennin.

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    Re: Rikudō Sennin's tablet and Madara's misconception

    What I find interesting is that when sasuke read the tablet he only found information about the true purpose of the MS: controlling the kyubi. So, we know that sharingan descends from rinnengan and we also know the MS can control the kyubi plus the databook implied the MS could control any biju. So, why is the MS capable of controlling biju? Why is a KG related to the one the sage possessed arbitrarily able to control biju which he arbitrarily created?

    I mean, think about it. The sage created 9 biju out of the chakra of the jubi. His son has a KG which allows him to control the kyubi and probably every other biju. Isn't that just far to much of a coincidence? It would make far more sense that either of this happened:

    1.- The sage created the biju so that his son could control them with his eye power. That would mean he was born with the sharingan and the sage used a technique on the new beast to allow the sharingan to control them.

    2.- The sage was responsible for the creation of the sharingan(as in he actually made the sharingan) and gave it the capacity to control the biju which he made. In other words, he could have somehow tied the sharingan and the biju(which could have something to do with why kyubi warmed sasuke about killing naruto now that I think about it). from their creation.

    Now, given how random things involving the elder son and the biju were, I honestly doubt it was actually a coincidence. The sage for some reason gave one of his sons the power to control biju. Now, the tablet contains information regarding the MS control of the biju and on top of that it contains information about the jubi and other things.

    The younger son was made the heir of the rikudo but clearly the elder son was given other responsibilities and control over the biju by the rikudo. In that sense, the purpose of the tablet would have nothing to do with the younger son. Clearly, the tablet was left so that future generations could control biju for whatever reason. Maybe the younger son was charged with the rikudo's will but the elder one was given the responsibility to keep biju in check and stop them from destroying the world should it come to that.

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    Re: Rikudō Sennin's tablet and Madara's misconception

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    What I find interesting is that when sasuke read the tablet he only found information about the true purpose of the MS: controlling the kyubi. So, we know that sharingan descends from rinnengan and we also know the MS can control the kyubi plus the databook implied the MS could control any biju. So, why is the MS capable of controlling biju? Why is a KG related to the one the sage possessed arbitrarily able to control biju which he arbitrarily created?

    I mean, think about it. The sage created 9 biju out of the chakra of the jubi. His son has a KG which allows him to control the kyubi and probably every other biju. Isn't that just far to much of a coincidence? It would make far more sense that either of this happened:

    1.- The sage created the biju so that his son could control them with his eye power. That would mean he was born with the sharingan and the sage used a technique on the new beast to allow the sharingan to control them.

    2.- The sage was responsible for the creation of the sharingan(as in he actually made the sharingan) and gave it the capacity to control the biju which he made. In other words, he could have somehow tied the sharingan and the biju(which could have something to do with why kyubi warmed sasuke about killing naruto now that I think about it). from their creation.

    Now, given how random things involving the elder son and the biju were, I honestly doubt it was actually a coincidence. The sage for some reason gave one of his sons the power to control biju. Now, the tablet contains information regarding the MS control of the biju and on top of that it contains information about the jubi and other things.

    The younger son was made the heir of the rikudo but clearly the elder son was given other responsibilities and control over the biju by the rikudo. In that sense, the purpose of the tablet would have nothing to do with the younger son. Clearly, the tablet was left so that future generations could control biju for whatever reason. Maybe the younger son was charged with the rikudo's will but the elder one was given the responsibility to keep biju in check and stop them from destroying the world should it come to that.
    That's not necessarily true. We don't know whether the younger brother had the abilitiy to control the bijuu ot not, but we do know that Harashima Senju had the ability to control them. If I had to guess, not only would Iv say that the younger had the ability to control the bijuu but I would also say that anyone with the ability to control a bijuu without a doujutsu is probably related to him.

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    Re: Rikudō Sennin's tablet and Madara's misconception

    Sounds plausible, but I think it is more sinister than that.

    I think that the sage split the juubee in to more manageable biju and then created the sealing method as the only way to suppress them. He didn't know of any other way to bend them to his will.

    The Sharingan was accidentally inherited by his elder son, who also could use the MS, on top of his spiral rinnengan. Because of the fact that the MS uses some of the techniques of the juubee, all biju are slaves to its power. The son discovered that the MS could do this and so wrote it all on a tablet so that his descendants might be able to use it against his brother.

    I think that the younger brother was more than a match for the elder, but the elder realised first that all of his abilities were not being passed on to his children, so he wrote the stone in case all his abilities manifested in one child again. He knew that the younger could suppress biju (like the sage) but he also knew that the ability would not be inherited by all his children.

    There must have been a reason why you need different eyes to read all of it. My theory is that the elder son purposely wrote what he did, so that at whatever level his children are, they can learn a secret of their power and that they will never learn what they are not capable of handling. (eg Madara is not capable of handling what Nagato read with his rinnengan ie. the juubee).

    The stone was passed on in his family and to the Uchiha so that they could eventually discover its secret and beat the senju family.
    Last edited by poobert; November 12, 2009 at 07:28 AM.
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    Re: Rikudō Sennin's tablet and Madara's misconception

    Here is the picture of the brothers:
    http://mangahut.com/manga/m=VJMh/naruto/462/pg13

    Not sure if the elder brother had the sharingan or the rinningan, he just looks funny. Still, I have doubts about the uchiha's capacity to control biju being a coincidence unrelated to the sage and his son. IMHO it is just too much of a coincidence that the rikudo created the biju and his descendants just happened to acquire the power to control this biju for no reason. I mean, just how convenient is that lol. Given that each of the brothers would have inherently different capacities due to their own chakra and eyes, it makes sense that each brother was left behind with a different task. The one who inherited the eyes would logically take up on the task of watching over biju and the one who inherited the rikudo's will would watch over for world peace.

    Also, madara pretty much cleared up that the stone was left behind by the sage, not the older brother. That would pretty much prove the rikudo new of the sharingan and MS.

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    Re: Rikudō Sennin's tablet and Madara's misconception

    something does trouble me about the whole story:
    http://mangahut.com/manga/m=VJMh/naruto/462/pg13

    It shows that the Sage posseses the rinnegan, however the descendants of his own child posses the sharingan. Where is the descendant who posseses the rinnegan?
    this could imply there is a 3th descendant who has the rinnegan (as its highly unlikely that the older brother had both the rinnegan and sharingan in his genes).

    Quote Quote:
    Also, madara pretty much cleared up that the stone was left behind by the sage, not the older brother. That would pretty much prove the rikudo new of the sharingan and MS.
    it seems pretty obvious to me that the sage did leave the stone to his elder son as his other son was unable to read the tablet without rinnegan and/or sharingan.

    Last but not least i am still wondering about the Byakugan and how their clan is able to read the tablet.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Yondaime Uzumaki's Avatar
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    Re: Rikudō Sennin's tablet and Madara's misconception

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Here is the picture of the brothers:
    http://mangahut.com/manga/m=VJMh/naruto/462/pg13

    Not sure if the elder brother had the sharingan or the rinningan, he just looks funny. Still, I have doubts about the uchiha's capacity to control biju being a coincidence unrelated to the sage and his son. IMHO it is just too much of a coincidence that the rikudo created the biju and his descendants just happened to acquire the power to control this biju for no reason. I mean, just how convenient is that lol. Given that each of the brothers would have inherently different capacities due to their own chakra and eyes, it makes sense that each brother was left behind with a different task. The one who inherited the eyes would logically take up on the task of watching over biju and the one who inherited the rikudo's will would watch over for world peace.

    Also, madara pretty much cleared up that the stone was left behind by the sage, not the older brother. That would pretty much prove the rikudo new of the sharingan and MS.
    That is definitely the Rinnegan that the older brother has. I didn't understand what you were saying in your first post but now I'm starting to see where you're coming from. And I would totally agree if I thought that only one of the brothers were capable of controlling the bijuu. But, like Harashima Senju, I think the the younger brother was more than capable of controlling the bijuu. Harashima had to get it from somewhere, right? There would be no reason to name a successor if he expected both of his children to carry on his will.

    Giving a son that you don't believe is worthy to be your heir that kind of power could have catastrophic results, and Rikudo Sennin seemed like someone that would realize the potential of something like that. Even if he did give the elder brother that kind of task, it wouldn't make any sense for the Rikudo Sennin to give that kind of power to the elder brother without some kind of insurance.

    Anyway, the only problem that I can think of is how Killer Bee and the fourth Mizukage was able to control the bijuu if they weren't connected to the younger brother. Then I thought about Nagato. He was even a Uchiha, yet he had the doujutsu that the Sharingan orginated from, showing that he was connected to the elder brother, probably had an even stronger connection to the elder brother, without even being a Uchiha. That shows just how mixed up the Rikudo Sennin's descendants have become, he probably has descendants in every village in the Narutoverse.
    Quote Originally Posted by Richo View Post
    something does trouble me about the whole story:
    http://mangahut.com/manga/m=VJMh/naruto/462/pg13

    It shows that the Sage posseses the rinnegan, however the descendants of his own child posses the sharingan. Where is the descendant who posseses the rinnegan?
    this could imply there is a 3th descendant who has the rinnegan (as its highly unlikely that the older brother had both the rinnegan and sharingan in his genes).
    You are looking at this all wrong. You think that the older brother had both Rinnegan and Sharingan genes but, in all actuality, they are probably one in the same. That would explain why the Rinnegan can read more than the Sharingan. Let me give you an example. The Rinnegan is a black man. He mates with a white woman(regular eyes). The Sharingan is the baby.

    Quote Originally Posted by Richo View Post
    it seems pretty obvious to me that the sage did leave the stone to his elder son as his other son was unable to read the tablet without rinnegan and/or sharingan.

    Last but not least i am still wondering about the Byakugan and how their clan is able to read the tablet.
    Who told you that only the Rinnegan and Sharingan user could read it? Madara. That's where the problem lies. Until one of the younger brothers descendants see the tablet, we have no clue whether the tablet can be read by just Rinnegan/Sharingan eyes or if the tablet was even made for the elder brother to begin with. We don't know have it would react to the Sennin's "body". We only know that the rinnegan/sharingan can read it, but what if there is more to learn from it, that not even the Rinnegan could read. How would Madara or even Nagato know if there was or wasn't? It would be equivalent of someone with the normal Sharingan thinking that they knew eveything on the tablet.
    Last edited by Yondaime Uzumaki; November 12, 2009 at 12:27 PM.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member poobert's Avatar
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    Re: Rikudō Sennin's tablet and Madara's misconception

    I do not think the sage left the stone to his elder son. I don't understand why the sage would tell his son how to control the 9tails of all things. Nor did the sage have the sharingan, he had a pure rinnengan, so he might not have been able to read half of the tablet.

    I also do not think that the sage trusted the elder son. He chose the younger son as his successor and I think he knew of their rivalry. He also knew that the elder son was very militaristic, so why on earth would he leave him information on how to control the strongest of juubee chakra parts that he made. It would have been obvious what he would do with it.

    On top of that, the sage died after he sent the juubee to the moon and split the chakra in to beasts. The manga implies that that was the last thing he did. How could he have written about the MS controlling the 9 tails before the 9 tails even existed.

    *edit* I would take everything Madara says with a pinch of salt. I personally think that he is full of himself.
    Last edited by poobert; November 12, 2009 at 12:05 PM.
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    Re: Rikudō Sennin's tablet and Madara's misconception

    Quote Originally Posted by poobert View Post
    I do not think the sage left the stone to his elder son. I don't understand why the sage would tell his son how to control the 9tails of all things. Nor did the sage have the sharingan, he had a pure rinnengan, so he might not have been able to read half of the tablet.

    I also do not think that the sage trusted the elder son. He chose the younger son as his successor and I think he knew of their rivalry. He also knew that the elder son was very militaristic, so why on earth would he leave him information on how to control the strongest of juubee chakra parts that he made. It would have been obvious what he would do with it.

    On top of that, the sage died after he sent the juubee to the moon and split the chakra in to beasts. The manga implies that that was the last thing he did. How could he have written about the MS controlling the 9 tails before the 9 tails even existed.

    *edit* I would take everything Madara says with a pinch of salt. I personally think that he is full of himself.
    The sage did not necessarily died in the second he separated the jubi's chakra given that he was actually shown in his deathbed.

    Yet we have that it is the older son that inherited the eyes and his descendants had the potential to control any biju. A lot of things might have happened in the past but what I think is almost certain is that the MS capacity to control biju is inherently related to the sage. It is just too much of a coincidence that the sage's son happened to be born and left to his descendants the power to control biju he created.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member poobert's Avatar
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    Re: Rikudō Sennin's tablet and Madara's misconception

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Yet we have that it is the older son that inherited the eyes and his descendants had the potential to control any biju. A lot of things might have happened in the past but what I think is almost certain is that the MS capacity to control biju is inherently related to the sage. It is just too much of a coincidence that the sage's son happened to be born and left to his descendants the power to control biju he created.
    I don't deny that the son inherited the MS as the sharingan is the eye of the juubee.

    But I do not understand why he would favour the elder son with so much power. He had no choice whether the son got the eyes or not, but he would have a choice to give him the biju.

    If what you say is true, then he made the younger son his heir, but entrusted the elder with the power of all of the biju as well as making him the effective guardian of the juubee. Why would you give this to someone who wanted war.

    He basically said, "your moral view is wrong and love not war is the answer, here have the juubee you warmongering son of mine...." It doesn't make sense.

    To add to that, when nagato talks about the moon the sage made, he talks as if his knowledge is very indirect. Why would he not be more certain if he had read the writing of the sage himself. (I know I may be reading too much in to this translation).
    http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/439/08/
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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Yondaime Uzumaki's Avatar
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    Re: Rikudō Sennin's tablet and Madara's misconception

    Quote Originally Posted by poobert View Post
    I don't deny that the son inherited the MS as the sharingan is the eye of the juubee.

    But I do not understand why he would favour the elder son with so much power. He had no choice whether the son got the eyes or not, but he would have a choice to give him the biju.

    If what you say is true, then he made the younger son his heir, but entrusted the elder with the power of all of the biju as well as making him the effective guardian of the juubee. Why would you give this to someone who wanted war.

    He basically said, "your moral view is wrong and love not war is the answer, here have the juubee you warmongering son of mine...." It doesn't make sense.

    To add to that, when nagato talks about the moon the sage made, he talks as if his knowledge is very indirect. Why would he not be more certain if he had read the writing of the sage himself. (I know I may be reading too much in to this translation).
    http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/439/08/
    I agree. That's why I think that both sons had the ability to control the bijuu, but only one has the ability to read the tablet in it's entirety(which hasn't been revealed to anyone yet) and, contrary to what Madara believes, that person was the younger brother and the possesser of the Rikudo Sennin's body.

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