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Thread: Bleach Hangout Thread 3.0

  1. #181
    Registered User 初心者/ Shoshinsha / Beginner Hangender's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach Hangout Thread 3.0

    To sum up the discussion, basically the fact of the matter is reiatsu matters.

    Remember that swords are their own spirit, so they have reiatsu as well, so in fights its actually a combination of zanpakuto reiatsu + owner reiatsu.

    Which is why some people get confused and think that reiatsu doesn't matter when a seemly "weak" character defeats a "strong" character. It can be explained by zanpakuto's reiatsu.

  2. #182
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach 385 Spoiler Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Gran Maestro View Post
    How did you get this impression from the manga? On the contrary, Kenpachi, who most probably has more reiatsu than Tousen, defeated Tousen's technique. Manga evidence suggests otherwise.
    <hr noshade size="1">


    Exception to what? And what is plot jutsu?
    The amount of reiatsu is relevant depending on the difference of it between two fighters. Lets take a extreme case. Lets say we have kempachi against a VC. Not amount of kido, shunpo, shikai or bankai will make any of the VC have a shread of a chance against kempachi even if he is tied down and has his 5 senses removed. Kempachi can just remove his eyepatch(somehow, lol) and the VC will eventually fall from exhaustion from being exposed to such heavy reaitsu. On the other hand, once we are dealing with captains and espada we are talking about individuals who have mostly comparable amounts of reiatsu. Even if the difference appear to be quite large at times, mostly they are comparable to some extent meaning that the actual abilities, individual skills and techniques they have will be highly relevant.

  3. #183
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Athrin's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach Hangout Thread 3.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Hangender View Post
    To sum up the discussion, basically the fact of the matter is reiatsu matters.

    Remember that swords are their own spirit, so they have reiatsu as well, so in fights its actually a combination of zanpakuto reiatsu + owner reiatsu.

    Which is why some people get confused and think that reiatsu doesn't matter when a seemly "weak" character defeats a "strong" character. It can be explained by zanpakuto's reiatsu.
    To add on to that, Zangetsu explained it when Ichigo when fighting Kenpachi.

  4. #184
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    Re: Bleach Hangout Thread 3.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Shola View Post
    The ken fight was plot induced; nothing like that will ever happen again; EVER.

    Idk how you say the manga suggests otherwise when technique beats pure power 99 percent of the time except for when that plot failure known as tousen vs ken happened.
    Can you give a few examples to 99% of the time? Who did defeat who with his/her puny reiatsu?

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    Re: Bleach Hangout Thread 3.0

    Oh boy
    Reiatsu "matters" but if someone has high reiatsu it doesn't equal a win; that's pretty much common sense.

    And wait.....are we now insinuating that the kenpachi fight wasn't plot protected? If so then wow.

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    Re: Bleach 385 Spoiler Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    The amount of reiatsu is relevant depending on the difference of it between two fighters. Lets take a extreme case. Lets say we have kempachi against a VC. Not amount of kido, shunpo, shikai or bankai will make any of the VC have a shread of a chance against kempachi even if he is tied down and has his 5 senses removed. Kempachi can just remove his eyepatch(somehow, lol) and the VC will eventually fall from exhaustion from being exposed to such heavy reaitsu.
    I agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    On the other hand, once we are dealing with captains and espada we are talking about individuals who have mostly comparable amounts of reiatsu. Even if the difference appear to be quite large at times, mostly they are comparable to some extent meaning that the actual abilities, individual skills and techniques they have will be highly relevant.
    I think we agree. Yes, if their reiatsu are on par, then the technique matters but if there's a considerable difference, then the weaker one and the technique get owned just like in a Kenpachi-VC fight.

  7. #187
    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity DARK's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach Hangout Thread 3.0

    Both reiatsu and techniques play a role in deciding the victor of a match. We all know that someone with a monstrous amount of reiatsu will overpower their opponent if they have less (i.e. Ichigo, Kenpachi, Aizen). It is natural for a Captain-ranked Shinigami/Vizard or an Espada-ranked Arrancar to overpower any opponent who is weaker than them (i.e. VC, Fraccion). They have more experience and are typically stronger in all areas of combat.
    When the reiatsu difference is not as grand, it mostly depends on the technique(s) a character uses. For example, Yumichika has effortlessly defeated Shuuhei and Charlotte Coolhourne (both instances, he was overpowered by his opponents) just by using his reiatsu-draining Shikai. Another primary example was when Kurotsuchi had replaced his organs prior to his fight with Szayel Aporro. Hadn't he evaluate the battle beforehand, he would have probably lost.
    Luck and interference also play a role; hadn't Shinji come to bail Ichigo's ass from his second fight with Grimmjow, both he and Rukia would have died. The same also applies for the many times where Ichigo could have been killed in the Soul Society if it weren't for the protection of his hollow mask. Hollow interference has actually helped Ichigo defeat both Byakuya and Ulquiorra; if it weren't for the hollow, he would have probably lost/died.
    Information, techniques, luck, all of that play a role in a fight.

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  9. #188
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    Re: Bleach Hangout Thread 3.0

    Quote Originally Posted by DARK View Post
    Both reiatsu and techniques play a role in deciding the victor of a match. We all know that someone with a monstrous amount of reiatsu will overpower their opponent if they have less (i.e. Ichigo, Kenpachi, Aizen). It is natural for a Captain-ranked Shinigami/Vizard or an Espada-ranked Arrancar to overpower any opponent who is weaker than them (i.e. VC, Fraccion). They have more experience and are typically stronger in all areas of combat.
    When the reiatsu difference is not as grand, it mostly depends on the technique(s) a character uses. For example, Yumichika has effortlessly defeated Shuuhei and Charlotte Coolhourne (both instances, he was overpowered by his opponents) just by using his reiatsu-draining Shikai. Another primary example was when Kurotsuchi had replaced his organs prior to his fight with Szayel Aporro. Hadn't he evaluate the battle beforehand, he would have probably lost.
    Luck and interference also play a role; hadn't Shinji come to bail Ichigo's ass from his second fight with Grimmjow, both he and Rukia would have died. The same also applies for the many times where Ichigo could have been killed in the Soul Society if it weren't for the protection of his hollow mask. Hollow interference has actually helped Ichigo defeat both Byakuya and Ulquiorra; if it weren't for the hollow, he would have probably lost/died.
    Information, techniques, luck, all of that plays a role in deciding the victor.
    Exactly, there is no need to resort to "plot jutsu!" as an explanation of the outcome of the battle.

    But meh, fanboys does what fanboys do best.

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  11. #189
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    Re: Bleach Hangout Thread 3.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Shola View Post
    Oh boy
    Reiatsu "matters" but if someone has high reiatsu it doesn't equal a win; that's pretty much common sense.
    99% of the time, it equals a win. This is common sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shola View Post
    And wait.....are we now insinuating that the kenpachi fight wasn't plot protected? If so then wow.
    I already told you that plot protection only applies to Ichigo.

  12. #190
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    Re: Bleach Hangout Thread 3.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Shola View Post
    1. Haach vs barragan p.s. Save that bullshit about it being a conjoined effort between soi and haachi as though their reiatsus somehow coombine. It was haachis TECHNIQUE that offed him


    2. Stark vs L&R I don't really consider it a loss but they got bested

    3. Grimm vs Ichigo- paralyzed ichigo with reiatsu roar

    4. Tousen vs most of vizards

    5. Halibel vs Hitsugaya and please save that shit about him having higher reiatsu

    6. Aizen and all of SS; he can kill them whenever he wants as alluded by unohana

    7. Yammy and ken and byak

    8. Basically every fight in bleach
    Can you specify the guys who overcome overwhelming odds with their technique despite their puny reiatsu? And it was Soifon & Hachigen vs Barragan, no matter what.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shola View Post
    @gran
    Yes u told me that (not that that matters). But u seemed to have fallen silent when everyone on the topic told u what u were saying was utter nonsense as kenpachis fight was the definition of plot protection as most his fights are. Might wanna go back to yesterdays posts smart guy. (*snickers "I told you plot protection only appliies to Ichigo") what a laff!! Twohandkendo-kai anyone? Be serious.....please.
    Who said what I was saying was utter nonsense?

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    Re: Bleach Hangout Thread 3.0

    @gran
    Ok this convo is over. As I said 5 hrs ago on the prediction thread I just meant someone with considerably higher reiatsu against someone with a respectable level. Of course common sense would tell the average person that if someone had a zan comparable to tousens or aizens they will slaughter no matter the reiatsu of their opponent. But because it hasn't been objectively illustrated in the manga you guys will simply argue me down using ur own broken logic; so I gave you guys the benefit of the doubt. And yet ppl are still ignoring the hypothetical situation I've already illustrated and still talking about puny reiatsu vs yama level. I'm trying to have an intelligent debate and people are labeling me as a fanboy and ignoring my examples idk what else to say yo.

    Go back to the post if u wanna know who was disagreeing with you bro

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    Re: Bleach Hangout Thread 3.0

    well, Uryuu defeated Mayuri and then lost to Szayelaporro who then gets bested by Mayuri in the end.

    or Ichigo having trouble fighting Dordoonie after the SS arc and Vaizard training, but manage to come to a draw against Kenpachi and Kenpachi would've cut Dordoonie down faster than he did Tesla. plus, in my opinion, Kenpachi was toying with Nnoitra on the fact that he's taking on Yammy now in his release form and has yet to unleash his full power.

    as far as the so-called "powers" go, it's all part of the story and how it goes. there's nothing traditional about Bleach compared to other mangas. for example, in my on assumption here, Ichigo is technically the "strongest" character in Bleach because Kubo has already written out that he has unlimited power, but the problem is (as many people have mentioned already years ago) he has a hard time controlling the usage of his powers.

    when, Ichigo finally learns to do that he'll be on par with the general commander or even stronger. Aizen may be powerful, but his shi kai is what gives him a simple advantage period. without that alone, he'd be a little easier to fight against.

    i think Shinji's shi kai can reverse space around him when he attacks or is attacked and i can't wait to see him use it. i think it's similar to what what Ragenzi from Vampire Hunter D (1985) did when he fought D for the first time.

    p.s., Grimmjow to me was the only "real deal" espada out of the whole damn group, could careless what his rank was, he was bada$$ and he proved it.

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    Re: Bleach Hangout Thread 3.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Shola View Post
    Ok this convo is over. As I said 5 hrs ago on the prediction thread I just meant someone with considerably higher reiatsu against someone with a respectable level.
    Do you remember these words that started the discussion: "Someone with 1000th seat level reiatsu can clear a whole battlefield with a zanpakuto as hax as tousen or aizens." Is 1000th seat level a respectable level? If you did choose your words more carefully, perhaps there would be no discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shola View Post
    Of course common sense would tell the average person that if someone had a zan comparable to tousens or aizens they will slaughter no matter the reiatsu of their opponent. But because it hasn't been objectively illustrated in the manga you guys will simply argue me down using ur own broken logic; so I gave you guys the benefit of the doubt. And yet ppl are still ignoring the hypothetical situation I've already illustrated and still talking about puny reiatsu vs yama level. I'm trying to have an intelligent debate and people are labeling me as a fanboy and ignoring my examples idk what else to say yo.
    Shola, you are missing something. Kubo is the master of Bleach, nobody can overrule him, not me, not you, not anybody else. If I had the ability to shape Bleach according to my wishes, things would be much different and consequently my opinions would be different. We can't argue what we expect to see in Bleach, we have to go by Kubo's rules. Kubo's rules may not make perfect sense but when it comes to Bleach, Kubo is the judge.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shola View Post
    Go back to the post if u wanna know who was disagreeing with you bro
    People can certainly disagree with me. But I don't think anybody said my opinion was utter nonsense, there's a difference.

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  17. #194
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    Re: Bleach Hangout Thread 3.0

    Yes I remember that 1000 seat level reiatsu was said by ME. I later recanted it because of reasons I stated prior and people continued with it as though the hypothetical situation was still in effect even though I changed it.
    Furthermore, I agree with the kubo comment that's wh it was a hypothetical situation requiring common sense and deductive reasoning rather than objective proof cuz there wasn't any given. Someone with weak reiatsu defeating someone like kenpachi in a bloodlust battle? Of course! He's in the dome; he's stunned his head is lopped off swiftly. Reiatsu level dodnt have any impact inside tousens dome so where is this comig from that it will?

  18. #195
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member locke002paul's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach Hangout Thread 3.0

    Really now ... the truth is somewhere at the middle. I think DARK's post sums it up best. Any battle outcome or event can be explained through the basic mechanics of the manga. There are soooooo many variables in a bleach fight that it's really funny to hear plot-kai or whatever. I'm not pointing fingers at anyone (I've been biased too), it's just that we don't wanna see it because we all have our favorite characters and hate it when they lose.

    Here ... read this again ... a really good post ... nice one man:

    Quote Originally Posted by DARK
    Both reiatsu and techniques play a role in deciding the victor of a match. We all know that someone with a monstrous amount of reiatsu will overpower their opponent if they have less (i.e. Ichigo, Kenpachi, Aizen). It is natural for a Captain-ranked Shinigami/Vizard or an Espada-ranked Arrancar to overpower any opponent who is weaker than them (i.e. VC, Fraccion). They have more experience and are typically stronger in all areas of combat.
    When the reiatsu difference is not as grand, it mostly depends on the technique(s) a character uses. For example, Yumichika has effortlessly defeated Shuuhei and Charlotte Coolhourne (both instances, he was overpowered by his opponents) just by using his reiatsu-draining Shikai. Another primary example was when Kurotsuchi had replaced his organs prior to his fight with Szayel Aporro. Hadn't he evaluate the battle beforehand, he would have probably lost.
    Luck and interference also play a role; hadn't Shinji come to bail Ichigo's ass from his second fight with Grimmjow, both he and Rukia would have died. The same also applies for the many times where Ichigo could have been killed in the Soul Society if it weren't for the protection of his hollow mask. Hollow interference has actually helped Ichigo defeat both Byakuya and Ulquiorra; if it weren't for the hollow, he would have probably lost/died.
    Information, techniques, luck, all of that play a role in a fight.
    PS something ON-TOPIC ... so we won't get yelled at or stfu-ed by some wanna-be moderator )

    Regarding the fight of the week, Koma vs Tousen. What I love about this fight is that it could go either way. Yeah, Tousen definitely has the upper hand, but Komamura could get some wolf-form based power-up or show some kind of wicked TECHNIQUE of his own ... or simply Yamamoto could butt-in and roast him.
    Last edited by locke002paul; December 09, 2009 at 08:51 PM.

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