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Thread: Bleach Hangout Thread 3.0

  1. #751
    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity jaymizzo's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach Hangout Thread 3.0

    Quote Originally Posted by thornofcarrion View Post
    I agree with KKCK. IMHO, Kubo is keeping characters like Tessai, Isshin, Urahara etc. in shadows. I am sure they have their purposes. Tessia, by logic, should be more capable than Hachi. My concern though is, are they going to fail as Vizards did? The expectations we had for them, and logically they were supposed to be more powerful than normal Shinigami, yet they couldn't live to the expectations. Quality of the opposition is a different argument. It could all come down to personal opinions, and I stated mine.
    The Vaizards didnt Necesarily Fail, Only Love and Rose Kinda did.. We dont know how Kyouraku would have performed Against Starrk and his wolf pack

    And Again, The Rest Of the Vaizards were Killed off By Aizen, We Cant really call them fail coz the rest of the remaining captains got downed by the same guy (xept Yama )

    What we Expected from the Vaizards Was Unrealistic, By The Time they got there, there wernt enough Enemies To fight

    I agree Mashiro Kinda Failed Againt WW, But We Dont know how the story woulda gone if her mask dint break, and she went shikai + bankai!?
    And We havent Seen Kensei vs WW fight so we hardly know what really went down

    Shinji Wasnt Going down for shiz, untill Toshiro Screwed everything up (i dont blame the kid he got mindraped)....
    Love And rose the same, they wer preety beat up from fighting starrk, and wer under KS Influence

    We shouldnt Have Expected them to do much, coz of KS, But we still expected something from them!

    In Real terms non of them Really failed, And We would need better opponents to test theyre skill before judging them

    <Lol Mauricio :P >
    Last edited by jaymizzo; March 12, 2010 at 04:42 PM.
    "Man hands misery onto man" - Philip Larkin

  2. #752
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Gcat88's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach Hangout Thread 3.0

    It wasnt a character fail but a plot fail. The author had to choose between developing the Vizards and the Captains. thats why i think there needs to be another arc because there needs to be room for more development, that or make a prequel and show everyones true power!!!
    Spoiler show

  3. #753
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted zerocooldx's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach Hangout Thread 3.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Gcat88 View Post
    It wasnt a character fail but a plot fail. The author had to choose between developing the Vizards and the Captains. thats why i think there needs to be another arc because there needs to be room for more development, that or make a prequel and show everyones true power!!!
    That sums up Bleach in two words.

    "Upon the back of his body not a wound of retreat scars it."
    One Piece is a series created by a genius, it's a masterpiece, it's like a fine wine, it only gets better with time.

  4. #754
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach Hangout Thread 3.0

    I still think the main problem the vizards had against the espada was the evolution of their hollowification. The espada were outright infinitely more advanced than the vizards. A resurreccion has shown to provide all the boosts from a shinigami sword release and on top of that an actual increase in physical capacities and reiatsu. In a strong arrancar just resurreccion has shown to be about as powerful or even stronger than a bankai. In comparison bankai just provides more abilities and comes with an increase in reiatsu consumption. The difference in quality of their hollowification seems even more obvious when you consider most of the espada probably weren't even vasto lorde. They were mid level hollows who attained the capacity to fight captains solely through shinigamification.

    I don't think the vizards were fail at all, they all did remarkably well in their fights and made a huge difference. Hachi came up with a clever tactic to defeat barragan even if he never actually attacked. Hiyori and liza, being merely former VC, did not drag hitsugaya down at all in their fight against harribel which speaks volumes of hiyori's and liza's strength. Love was the one who forced starrk all out and starrk admitted his cero would not have even work against them due to how strong they were. It is also worth nothing none of them went bankai. kensei fought WW but what happened to him is kind of a mystery right now. I don't think he got defeated though.

  5. #755
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Exodi's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach Hangout Thread 3.0

    Quote Originally Posted by zerocooldx View Post
    That sums up Bleach in two words.
    But Bleach is the best plot fail ever. That's why it's so popular.

    And that's why I love it.
    Last edited by Exodi; March 12, 2010 at 08:12 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

  6. #756
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member Mauricio Raphael's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach Hangout Thread 3.0

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    I still think the main problem the vizards had against the espada was the evolution of their hollowification. The espada were outright infinitely more advanced than the vizards. A resurreccion has shown to provide all the boosts from a shinigami sword release and on top of that an actual increase in physical capacities and reiatsu. In a strong arrancar just resurreccion has shown to be about as powerful or even stronger than a bankai. In comparison bankai just provides more abilities and comes with an increase in reiatsu consumption. The difference in quality of their hollowification seems even more obvious when you consider most of the espada probably weren't even vasto lorde. They were mid level hollows who attained the capacity to fight captains solely through shinigamification.
    However, I think it can be argued at least with the Vizard captains, who we know have bankai, that along with the mask which provides a significant boost in physical attributes puts them on the level of the Espada. But then again, who says they need the masks to battle the likes of the Espada? The captains of the Gotei 13 did fine against them

    Though, I get the point of the level of hybridization. From what Tousen demonstrated in his battle with Komamura and Hisagi, it seems the Vizards haven't (or couldn't) reach that level yet of using a resurreción.

  7. #757
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach Hangout Thread 3.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Mauricio Raphael View Post
    However, I think it can be argued at least with the Vizard captains, who we know have bankai, that along with the mask which provides a significant boost in physical attributes puts them on the level of the Espada. But then again, who says they need the masks to battle the likes of the Espada? The captains of the Gotei 13 did fine against them

    Though, I get the point of the level of hybridization. From what Tousen demonstrated in his battle with Komamura and Hisagi, it seems the Vizards haven't (or couldn't) reach that level yet of using a resurreción.
    Well, I did forget to mention love, rose and shinji never went bankai at all. IMHO their bankai should be no less destructive than that of any other captain plus they get the power boost of mask. I do think each of them could have defeated the espada individually had they used bankai though -kensei too but he never fought a espada, just retard boy who is a wildcard-.

  8. #758
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Igniel's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach Hangout Thread 3.0

    It kind of felt like this entire arc was a huge plot fail for the simple reason that everyone seemed to attempt to defeat Aizen & Co. by doing as little as possible and exerting as little power as possible. If it were a sparring match, I can understand...but when it's life or death it seems a little half-assed.

    The only one to go all out to the extent of his ability, at a given time of course, was this past chapter & Yamma. Everyone else half-assed it & paid the consequences with severe injury.

  9. #759
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member Mauricio Raphael's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach Hangout Thread 3.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Igniel View Post
    It kind of felt like this entire arc was a huge plot fail for the simple reason that everyone seemed to attempt to defeat Aizen & Co. by doing as little as possible and exerting as little power as possible. If it were a sparring match, I can understand...but when it's life or death it seems a little half-assed.

    The only one to go all out to the extent of his ability, at a given time of course, was this past chapter & Yamma. Everyone else half-assed it & paid the consequences with severe injury.
    It's understandable: you would think that this being a battle with important matters on the line, the Gotei 13 would have tried harder to defeat but then again when several people are fighting a powerful foe together, their abilities have to be taken in account with other.

    With fighters like Komamura and Hitsugaya, whose abilities can encompass a wide area, others have to get out of the way in order to not be affected.

    And then, we don't even know the bankais of Love, Rose, Shinji, and Kyouraku so who knows how they would have affected the performance of the others. At least, we can assume Kyouraku's bankai, from what Ukitake implied, is something that shouldn't involve other fighters in the area and going by his shikai, that would seem to hold true. And the same also applies for Shinji.

    Also, probably, they were thinking that Aizen also has Bankai so if it happened that they forced him to use bankai, the captains probably wanted to have the option of using their unknown bankais against Aizen's unknown bankai.

    From all this, I think that how the captains fought Aizen was probably the best thing they could do: they had numbers against him and with the abilities they all shown up to that point, they definitely had a chance to defeat him or at least weaken him enough so that Yamamoto could have taken care of him

    And the reason Yamamoto showed more effort than the rest was because he was the only one out there battling. Sometimes, I think that the captains should have had an one-on-one battle-like roulette against Aizen: have one battle Aizen until they get hit by him and then another comes along immediately. This would have been effectively against when Aizen uses Kyouka Suigetsu as he seems vulnerable after using an illusion.

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    Re: Bleach Hangout Thread 3.0

    what i think is that even if the fighters go all out and use bankais, aizen still has illusions. what's the use of wasting all that power to hit something you're not sure of? They did that with no avail. We thought Kyoraku and Hitsugaya hit a double team on Aizen, but that was an illusion. He was probably there where momo was waiting for his chance to slice them and use her to set hitsugaya's childish reactions off. It worked. And whatever else Aizen planned worked. Like the last chapter when he KNEW that Yama would have to cover the explosion. That was planned as was the avoiding attacks from Shunsui Shinji Soi-Fon and Toshiro

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    Re: Bleach Hangout Thread 3.0

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    A resurreccion has shown to provide all the boosts from a shinigami sword release and on top of that an actual increase in physical capacities and reiatsu. In a strong arrancar just resurreccion has shown to be about as powerful or even stronger than a bankai. In comparison bankai just provides more abilities and comes with an increase in reiatsu consumption.
    I don't see much difference between them.

    A bankai increases spiritual energy consumption, so does a resurreccion.

    A strong arrancar's resurreccion may be stronger than a bankai, a strong shinigami's shikai (let alone bankai) may be stronger than a resurreccion.

    Both bankai and resurreccion provide more abilities, if a resurreccion increases physical capacity, the extra abilities it provides are pale compared to a bankai. (Ex: Nnoitra) If a resurreccion (like a bankai) gives good extra abilities, the physical capacity increase is insignificant. (Ex: Zommari)

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  13. #762
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach Hangout Thread 3.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Gran Maestro View Post
    I don't see much difference between them.

    A bankai increases spiritual energy consumption, so does a resurreccion.

    A strong arrancar's resurreccion may be stronger than a bankai, a strong shinigami's shikai (let alone bankai) may be stronger than a resurreccion.

    Both bankai and resurreccion provide more abilities, if a resurreccion increases physical capacity, the extra abilities it provides are pale compared to a bankai. (Ex: Nnoitra) If a resurreccion (like a bankai) gives good extra abilities, the physical capacity increase is insignificant. (Ex: Zommari)
    Well, obviously there are similarities given that resurreccion is a power based on shinigami's sword release. I do think resurreccion actually increases reiatsu, not just the consumption of it. IMHO it is the increase in reiatsu which makes resurrecion particularly dangerous since the ability it comes along with already are boosted by it along with physical capacities. Obviously different arrancan get boosts in different areas. I don't think there really is a tradeoff between abilities and physical capacities though. Take harribel, she had great water based abilities and her physical capacities after resurreccion were enough to make him not even consider getting close to her on his own. Grimmjow got a great physical boost and also a number of fairly powerful abilities -desgarron and the elbow missile-. Starrk was implied to also get a significant increase in physical capacities and he still gained an ability as haxed as intangible soul bombs. At least I would not put it in the way you describe it, instead of resurreccion trading between physical abilities and powers I would say the power of some resurreccion is the increase in physical capacities -comparable to what ikkaku's bankai does-.


    Quote Originally Posted by freshseth83 View Post
    what i think is that even if the fighters go all out and use bankais, aizen still has illusions. what's the use of wasting all that power to hit something you're not sure of? They did that with no avail. We thought Kyoraku and Hitsugaya hit a double team on Aizen, but that was an illusion. He was probably there where momo was waiting for his chance to slice them and use her to set hitsugaya's childish reactions off. It worked. And whatever else Aizen planned worked. Like the last chapter when he KNEW that Yama would have to cover the explosion. That was planned as was the avoiding attacks from Shunsui Shinji Soi-Fon and Toshiro
    My impression was that the reason they did not use bankai against aizen was mostly in order to avoid getting others caught up in their attacks. For instance hitsugaya can use his bankai and at considerably reduced capacity but if he does go all out then not getting others caught in the middle of it is extremely hard. Shunsui's bankai is supposed to be more powerful than hitsugaya's at full capacity and the remaining vizard ones are most likely as brutal as any other captain bankai without even using mask. Basically, if they used bankai against aizen then teamwork was impossible simply because they would have been caught up in each others attacks.
    Last edited by kkck; March 13, 2010 at 10:59 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member poobert's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach Hangout Thread 3.0

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Hiyori and liza, being merely former VC, did not drag hitsugaya down at all in their fight against harribel which speaks volumes of hiyori's and liza's strength.
    I think this is pretty important in showing their strength. Along with Mashiro, these three should be at VC level, but with their masks they are boosted to captain level. Mashiro took down fura, which no vc can hope to do, and Hiyori and Lisa fought Halibel, while the other vc's were beaten by her fraccion and their pet. Note the absolutely huge, huge, huge, huge difference in power level of an espada and their fraccion. Another thing to note is that these vizard vc were holding their own against a character stronger than Uliquora.

    With the captain Vizard... well Shinji didn't use his mask and the rest.... we can only compare to Shunsui and Uki, who make the rest of the captains look like VC's.
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  16. #764
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach Hangout Thread 3.0

    Quote Originally Posted by poobert View Post
    I think this is pretty important in showing their strength. Along with Mashiro, these three should be at VC level, but with their masks they are boosted to captain level. Mashiro took down fura, which no vc can hope to do, and Hiyori and Lisa fought Halibel, while the other vc's were beaten by her fraccion and their pet. Note the absolutely huge, huge, huge, huge difference in power level of an espada and their fraccion. Another thing to note is that these vizard vc were holding their own against a character stronger than Uliquora.

    With the captain Vizard... well Shinji didn't use his mask and the rest.... we can only compare to Shunsui and Uki, who make the rest of the captains look like VC's.
    Strangely, the impression I get from this is that the boost the stronger captains got from their own hollowification is actually weaker than then one the former VCs get. I mean, the former VCs get with mask the physical capacities of a captain or at the very least they are comparable, how is it that the former captains had that much troublea against starrk. Perhaps hiyori and liza are far above the VC level as a whole even without their masks -liza fought alonside the former captains 100 years ago with no trouble at least- which would explain why they get can match apparently match captains with their masks. Basically their mask boost is not that strong but in turn their base strength is a lot more than even the stronger VCs.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member BaddAzzKenpachi74's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach Hangout Thread 3.0

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Strangely, the impression I get from this is that the boost the stronger captains got from their own hollowification is actually weaker than then one the former VCs get. I mean, the former VCs get with mask the physical capacities of a captain or at the very least they are comparable, how is it that the former captains had that much troublea against starrk. Perhaps hiyori and liza are far above the VC level as a whole even without their masks -liza fought alonside the former captains 100 years ago with no trouble at least- which would explain why they get can match apparently match captains with their masks. Basically their mask boost is not that strong but in turn their base strength is a lot more than even the stronger VCs.
    how they have trouble with stark?
    he WAS the number 1 espada for a reason dude.
    and not to mention his UNSTOPABLE "yes unstopable" wolves.
    face it those wolves were invincible and very fast and NOTHING could kill them.
    Love Smashed them to pieces and Love exploded them and yet the wolves STILL reformed.
    and the explossion they caused was 2x as tall as the large buildings in FKT wich means they hold ALOT of power.
    come on dude who wouldn't get owned by around 30 invincible wolves besides the illusion trickster master Aizen and CC Yama

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