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Thread: Bleach Hangout Thread 3.0

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    Re: Bleach Hangout Thread 3.0

    Quote Originally Posted by ki0 View Post
    - The problem with Shunsui relying on his games, is he doesn't get to choose which he plays.
    IMO this is a common misconception. Shunsui never said "KS chooses the game", he said "KS decides the rules (not the game)". Shunsui chooses the game but he can't change the rules of the game.

    http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/374/06/

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    Re: Bleach Hangout Thread 3.0

    The first little thing here is that wolves were definitely a lot stronger than cero.
    http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/373/16/


    Also this
    http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/373/17/

    They took god knows how many wolves -probably as much as initially shown- and they still were able to stand which IMHO speaks wonders of their strength.

    It is not fair to compare "a mere cero" -as starrk called them- to his apparently most powerful move. For all we know shunsui would have taken at least as much damage as the vizards.

    Even then, each of those things was intangible meaning love and rose's arsenal wasn't really appropriate to deal with them. Shunsui never had to deal with that, he caught starrk of guard with his game and stick to a close range game where starrk could not use wolves due to what would seem lack of time and the fact he would have also been caught up in the explosion with shunsui being so close. The game itself also seemed to play a part, perhaps shunsui specifically took his time in order for it to come up.

    On another note, neither rose nor love ever used bankai against starrk. I would think their respective bankai are about as brutal as that of any other gotei 13 captain but they could further boost it with a mask. Starrk being stronger than them is not a definite thing, for all we know both of them could have defeated starrk if they went to such an extreme. I know shunsui didn't go bankai which speaks wonders of him but it is worth considering he did take full advantage of the vizards fighting.

    On a separate note, I do think love and rose posses comparable or even greater speed and strength to shunsui or starrk when their masks are on, I don't think such a thing can be taken lightly.

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    Re: Bleach Hangout Thread 3.0

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    he caught starrk of guard with his game and stick to a close range game where starrk could not use wolves due to what would seem lack of time and the fact he would have also been caught up in the explosion with shunsui being so close.
    Well, we know that Stark could keep his distance against Shunsui and use his cero guns at the same time:

    http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/362/07/

    http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/362/08/

    http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/362/10/

    And I think Shunsui simply gave more than enough time to Stark to do whatever he wishes when he asked Stark to choose a color. IMO Stark was fast enough to create an opening to effectively use the wolves but in a worst case scenario Stark should have used the cero guns if he was indeed able to.
    Last edited by Gran Maestro; March 13, 2010 at 07:32 PM.

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    Re: Bleach Hangout Thread 3.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Gran Maestro View Post
    IMO this is a common misconception. Shunsui never said "KS chooses the game", he said "KS decides the rules (not the game)". Shunsui chooses the game but he can't change the rules of the game.

    http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/374/06/
    What is the difference between choosing the games and choosing the rules? I mean, there is no point in shunsui choosing the game but KK putting the rules of takaoni on it. The rules of a game are what traditionally define it so under that principle KK would determine whether the game has turns, how much damage is dealt and what has to be done to do damage. Also, this part makes it clear shunsui does not chose the game.
    http://www.mangatoshokan.com/read/Bleach/1/374/7
    If shunsui could chose the game regardless of the mood of his sword the mood of it would not be important. The alternative is that shunsui can chose kageone but KK can give it the rules of busho umma which makes no sense at all.

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    Re: Bleach Hangout Thread 3.0

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    What is the difference between choosing the games and choosing the rules? I mean, there is no point in shunsui choosing the game but KK putting the rules of takaoni on it. The rules of a game are what traditionally define it so under that principle KK would determine whether the game has turns, how much damage is dealt and what has to be done to do damage.
    Simple, Shunsui chooses Takaoni, they play Takaoni and Shunsui is also forced to play by rules of Takaoni. Takaoni is one of the games from KK's arsenal (Shunsui doesn't design these games) and KK also decides the rules of the games it created, Shunsui only plays them.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Also, this part makes it clear shunsui does not chose the game.
    http://www.mangatoshokan.com/read/Bleach/1/374/7
    If shunsui could chose the game regardless of the mood of his sword the mood of it would not be important. The alternative is that shunsui can chose kageone but KK can give it the rules of busho umma which makes no sense at all.
    The mood of the sword is very important because if the sword is not in the right mood, Shunsui can't play any games (even if he tries to) because Shunsui's sword doesn't enforce any rules.
    Last edited by Gran Maestro; March 13, 2010 at 07:48 PM. Reason: Wrong zanpakuto lol

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    Re: Bleach Hangout Thread 3.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Gran Maestro View Post
    Simple, Shunsui chooses Takaoni, they play Takaoni and Shunsui is also forced to play by rules of Takaoni. Takaoni is one of the games from KK's arsenal (Shunsui doesn't design these games) and KK also decides the rules of the games it created, Shunsui only plays them.



    The mood of the sword is very important because if the sword is not in the right mood, Shunsui can't play any games (even if he tries to) because Shunsui's sword doesn't enforce any rules.
    I don't think your interpretation of what shunsui said makes sense in any plausible way. It makes a lot more sense that the sword chooses the game and shunsui chooses to activate it or not and play it along with being subjected to its rules. Everything about the fight would indicate shunsui does not chose the games, he just chose to unseal the sword.

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    Re: Bleach Hangout Thread 3.0

    Guys does it really matter? All that matters is that Starrk didn't do serious damage to anybody. Shunsui/Love/Rose. NONE OF THEM. The latter even had time to strike a pose against Aizen before he got put in his place. Yeah, Starrk sure tore him up good.

    No matter how much his fans try to sugarcoat it, the bottom line is that Starrk was a massive failure, just like the rest of the Espada. The only Arrancar who actually achieved anything noteworthy was WW. Hopefully Yammy will show why Kubo has kept him alive for so blasted long.
    Last edited by Xerneas; March 13, 2010 at 10:39 PM.

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    Re: Bleach Hangout Thread 3.0

    shunsui has two swords, those two swords have different games. one sword may have the shadow game and the other may have the color game. Bushogoma is the lazy spinning top game which he first used against stark, that was the tornado that surrounded him. After that he goes to say takaoni the cliff demon- or whoever is higher up wins. But stark shoots the cero. http://www.mangatoshokan.com/read/Bleach/1/362/11 and to those who think that Stark might have won had he shown his release look here http://www.mangatoshokan.com/read/Bleach/1/362/14 - so it seems as if Shunsui already knew his guns were capable of more. I think If he could have activated those games he first used, then he might not have had the chance to activate the other games at that time. Sorta like his sword was getting warmed up. However, if you think that he was hurt take a closer look at the pictures in the pages i gave links to. A clear indication that stark hit him with a cero at close range before the one to the back. The sleeve on his left arm looks singed or burnt- from starks cero. If shunsui wasn't strong he would be missing an arm- or there would be a hole in his back. But what happened? There wasn't even a scratch on him- he was laying face down in the dirt and Lisa stomped him into the pavement, that's what gave his face the scratched look. Not stark's cero, which hit him in the back.

    Use some logic here with me, Ukitake and Shunsui have been captains for at least 200-300 years. No one else besides Unohana and Yama have been in that position for that long. Captain strength doesn't mean all the captains are the same strength or same level in power. I think it's a gauge just to show where a shinigami is in terms of power. VC level, or Captain level, or just a seated level. The TBTP arc Ukitake is talking to Kaien Shiba and Ukitake states he wants him to be his VC. Afterwards he wants Kaien to look into Captain position. Kaien says there are others at captain level more deserving. http://www.mangatoshokan.com/read/Bleach/1/-105/17. I guess what I'm saying is that someone can be at captain level but no where near what the captains are.

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    Re: Bleach Hangout Thread 3.0

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    I don't think your interpretation of what shunsui said makes sense in any plausible way. It makes a lot more sense that the sword chooses the game and shunsui chooses to activate it or not and play it along with being subjected to its rules. Everything about the fight would indicate shunsui does not chose the games, he just chose to unseal the sword.
    It's not that hard to understand.

    Katen Kyokotsu has several games.
    Shunsui can pick whichever game he wants to play.
    The rules of whatever game Shunsui picks are (were) decided by Katen Kyokotsu. Shunsui can't change them.

    It's plausible to think that Shunsui does have say in which game he gets to play, as he was able to attack from Aizen's shadow (on the ice) in a moment's notice. He used Takaoni and Kageoni against Starrk when he felt like it.

    http://www.mangatoshokan.com/read/Bleach/1/374/7
    This page says to me that while Shunsui can choose whatever game he wants to play, Katen Kyokotsu has to want to play it, too.
    Last edited by Exodi; March 14, 2010 at 12:34 AM.

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    Re: Bleach Hangout Thread 3.0

    Honestly I think that Starrk losing is because he, like the rest of the Espada, isn't as intelligent of a fighter as the Shinigami Captains are. Were they more powerful? I would certainly say so, nothing Shunsui, Love, Rose, or Hachi could even compare to the kind of raw power the Espada had. The Top 2 Espada were brought down not because of their lack of power, but their incredibly unintelligent decision making when it comes to fighting. Starrk was very intelligent in a general sense, but not when it came to fighting.

    Starrk never really went for a killing blow, nor did he follow up any of his significant attacks to the extent he should have. When he first releases, he decides to mess around with Lilynette and take his eyes off of Shunsui. When Ukitake revealed his powers, Starrk willingly played along and did exactly as Ukitake wanted him to. He shot Shunsui and then forgot about him.When he fought against Love, he willingly took a blow and then just laid there with no will to fight. He bombarded Love and Rose only twice with his wolves, and then gave them the opportunity to run away instead of killing them.

    And here I know this part is controversial. But he willingly played along with Shunsui's color game and made no attempt to revert back to long range combat even when it was obvious that that was where he had the advantage. Then, against a maneuver which he was completely able to dodge once, he day dreamed about his past and let himself be taken by surprise and killed.

    Here's the first time where he easily dodged Shunsui's cover and slash tactics.

    http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/362/07/
    http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/362/08/

    And here's where he gets taken out by the exact same maneuver.

    http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/374/17/
    http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/374/18/
    http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/374/19/

    Barragan had many chances to just kill Soifon, instead he just played around with her. Even when Hachi appeared, he waits to see what Hachi has planned before he decides to attack, and then even when he catches Hachi in his attack he only touches a single bit of his hand when he could have easily infected his whole body. Thus leading to his demise.

    The Captains are frankly just better fighters, power aside.

    Edit: Though I honestly think its worth mentioning that the fact that Starrk's cero's were simply able to be disregarded by Love's Shikai is BS. If they were that easy to block then Shunsui wouldn't have needed to even dodge them. It screams of Kubo just wanting to get Starrk's fight over with.
    Last edited by poopoomaru; March 14, 2010 at 12:51 AM.

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    Re: Bleach Hangout Thread 3.0

    wehn shunsui fought against stark most of the beginning it was shunsui in sealed sword state. neither wanted to get serious. even shunsui knew he was hiding an ability with his guns and said he knew stark was lying when he told him his guns didn't fire anything besides ceros. If Stark wasn't so smart in battle he wouldn't have gauged Shunsui and Ukitake's abilities. The reason he woudln't put effort into beating Rose and Love at first was because Aizen had no reason for him. He knew this when he didn't grieve for Barragan when he was killed. Only Lillinette could convince Stark to actually release. Once he did only Shunsui could take him down. Swinging aimlessly and hoping to take out an opponent that was much faster and skilled was a shot in the air. That's what Love and Rose were. Shot's in the air. Shunsui took out Stark because of his skills in battle and his patience and cunning. Plus the power of his Shikai.

    One last thing i wanted to say- you stated this;
    "And here I know this part is controversial. But he willingly played along with Shunsui's color game and made no attempt to revert back to long range combat even when it was obvious that that was where he had the advantage. Then, against a maneuver which he was completely able to dodge once, he day dreamed about his past and let himself be taken by surprise and killed."
    He didn't willingly play his game, he had NO CHOICE. Even Shunsui said this, Once you are in the spiritual pressure of his swords you have no choice but to play the game. In other words it took away all his abilities. Sounds crazy but that's exactly what the Manga states.
    Last edited by freshseth83; March 14, 2010 at 02:54 AM.

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    Re: Bleach Hangout Thread 3.0

    Quote Originally Posted by freshseth83 View Post
    wehn shunsui fought against stark most of the beginning it was shunsui in sealed sword state. neither wanted to get serious. even shunsui knew he was hiding an ability with his guns and said he knew stark was lying when he told him his guns didn't fire anything besides ceros. If Stark wasn't so smart in battle he wouldn't have gauged Shunsui and Ukitake's abilities. The reason he woudln't put effort into beating Rose and Love at first was because Aizen had no reason for him. He knew this when he didn't grieve for Barragan when he was killed. Only Lillinette could convince Stark to actually release. Once he did only Shunsui could take him down. Swinging aimlessly and hoping to take out an opponent that was much faster and skilled was a shot in the air. That's what Love and Rose were. Shot's in the air. Shunsui took out Stark because of his skills in battle and his patience and cunning. Plus the power of his Shikai.

    One last thing i wanted to say- you stated this;
    "And here I know this part is controversial. But he willingly played along with Shunsui's color game and made no attempt to revert back to long range combat even when it was obvious that that was where he had the advantage. Then, against a maneuver which he was completely able to dodge once, he day dreamed about his past and let himself be taken by surprise and killed."
    He didn't willingly play his game, he had NO CHOICE. Even Shunsui said this, Once you are in the spiritual pressure of his swords you have no choice but to play the game. In other words it took away all his abilities. Sounds crazy but that's exactly what the Manga states.
    You should focus more on this one particular point, Starrk made no attempt to defy the rules of this game. He didn't even know Irooni existed when he summoned his swords. They were summoned before Shunsui wanted to play Irooni.

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    Re: Bleach Hangout Thread 3.0

    whether or not he tried to defy the rules, he played by them. Obviously Love and Rose realized who it was when they seen the sword through starks back and didn't attempt to help Shunsui. That along with the words of Shunsui stating that you are FORCED to play by it's rules are reason enough to believe that's true. I doubt Stark would have played his game if he didn't need to. That's why we see him draw a sword in the form of some type of energy. Maybe Kido but he doesn't know Kido. So I guess maybe his sword was made up of some other type of energy. Maybe the same that makes a cero from his gun? On top of it all, even in one of the translations it state that even if he tries to cut him it will do nothing unless he calls out a color during Irooni. http://www.mangatoshokan.com/read/Bleach/1/374/14
    Last edited by freshseth83; March 14, 2010 at 04:25 AM.

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    Re: Bleach Hangout Thread 3.0

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    I don't think your interpretation of what shunsui said makes sense in any plausible way. It makes a lot more sense that the sword chooses the game and shunsui chooses to activate it or not and play it along with being subjected to its rules. Everything about the fight would indicate shunsui does not chose the games, he just chose to unseal the sword.
    Well, the attack they planned against fake Aizen kinda proves that Shunsui chooses the games. Just after Hitsugaya froze Aizen's arm, Shunsui immediately used the shadow game to attack Aizen. If the sword is choosing the game, then the sword is choosing the exact same game Shunsui would choose in a given situation, so in that sense "sword chooses the game" doesn't make any more sense than "sword chooses the game what Shunsui wants, therefore Shunsui chooses the game" argument.

    Another evidence that my interpretation is more plausible: Shunsui said that his sword was not in the mood after he stabbed Stark. If what Shunsui meant was that his sword was not in the mood to play Kageoni, then Shunsui must have been kidding us because they wouldn't be able to play Kageoni above the ground anyway, there would be no difference between being in the mood and not being in the mood.

    I explained the inconsistencies in your interpretation but I don't see any counter-argument that explains why my arguments are not plausible. Shunsui thought he would need bankai against Stark but later he took on Stark with his shikai, so either some games really suck or Shunsui was not playing games at all. Of course why Stark forgot to use his perfectly working ceros stands as a big question in your arguments.

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    Re: Bleach Hangout Thread 3.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Gran Maestro View Post
    Well, the attack they planned against fake Aizen kinda proves that Shunsui chooses the games. Just after Hitsugaya froze Aizen's arm, Shunsui immediately used the shadow game to attack Aizen. If the sword is choosing the game, then the sword is choosing the exact same game Shunsui would choose in a given situation, so in that sense "sword chooses the game" doesn't make any more sense than "sword chooses the game what Shunsui wants, therefore Shunsui chooses the game" argument.

    Another evidence that my interpretation is more plausible: Shunsui said that his sword was not in the mood after he stabbed Stark. If what Shunsui meant was that his sword was not in the mood to play Kageoni, then Shunsui must have been kidding us because they wouldn't be able to play Kageoni above the ground anyway, there would be no difference between being in the mood and not being in the mood.

    I explained the inconsistencies in your interpretation but I don't see any counter-argument that explains why my arguments are not plausible. Shunsui thought he would need bankai against Stark but later he took on Stark with his shikai, so either some games really suck or Shunsui was not playing games at all. Of course why Stark forgot to use his perfectly working ceros stands as a big question in your arguments.
    I don't think the shadow game proves anything in that moment. Wouldn't any game have worked under the condition that it is shunsui's turn? I don't think the shadow game was necessarily shunsui's choice, it was simply the one that came up. Why not chose the color game against aizen in this scenario, we know shunsui can deal quite some more damage with it than with the shadow game.

    Starrk asked why shunsui held back such a trick and he answered he didn't, his sword simply wasn't in the mood. Before that, he simply could not use kageoni because KK was not in the mood. Now, I would think the technicality of being too high in the air is a different matter. If it is KK who chooses the games, she probably does not care whether an actual rule can be enforced at a given moment, how a player takes advantage of the rules is his problem.

    Not sure what the inconsistencies in the traditional interpretation are -you say you explained them but I did not find such a thing up to the first of the posts I quoted from you-. While your interpretation is plausible -it is merely a different way to read the whole thing-, I find it unnecessarily complicated and awkward mostly. I don't think the idea that shunsui's zampakuto can chose to work or not at any given point can be supported though.

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