Wy we should think that Vanderreich aren't True Quincies and Souken and his Family are? If Juha Bach is the founder of all the Quincies, then his Army should be the closest ones to being True Quincies. His henchmen might have evolved a bit in terms of using their powers, but they should be still the same.
All the powers Quincy used so far in this Arc were confirmed to be normal powers for all Quincies such as Blüt or Shadow.
Of course they are now able to steal Bankais and then use them to their benefit, but it seems that it is also done through some sort of Quincy power.
We've also seen in this Arc that not all the Quincy use bows.
As I see it, Souken and his affiliates might have been a group among other Quincies who had their own style, including fighting style and their own phylosophy, thus after all of them died Ryuken states that he is the Last True Quincy, since he might think that he is really the last among true Quincy as he thinks they should be. Even though he knows that there are a lot of other true Quincies, he just thinks their way, their phylosophy aren't right, since his father Souken wanted to cooperate with Shinigami, while most of others didn't want to do it, including Juha Bach himself.
I wonder who will train Ichigo new powers?
Himself on battle?
Ryuken focusing on Quincy powers?
Kenpachi knowing and warming-up his own Zampakutou?
I expect a scene of Ichi absorving energy from the enviroment to attack that will be super awesome.
It was never confirmed that Quincy originated from humans, IIRC it was even mentioned that Quincy have a longer life span than humans. Maybe Quincy were nearly immortal too, but their power got diluted over the millenia despite them being 'pure', they could be given powers, which were than inheritated by their offspring. Maybe it has something to do with the Vandenreich, maybe that's their original and not the human dimension. ;-)
Last edited by Schabrak; June 26, 2013 at 03:17 AM.
---------- Post added June 29, 2013 at 11:48 AM ---------- Previous post was June 26, 2013 at 11:24 AM ----------
One of the things I have always wondered about is just how exactly is skill relevant against volume of reiatsu overall. The manga has made the point that in battles of reiatsu it is always the stronger one that wins however I was looking at old chapters and began wondering just how much of a difference there is between any captain class shinigami to begin with. These are the available translations so far:
Now, in any of the translations unohana basically says that half the reiatsu ichigo has in basically a comparable amount to the reiatsu unohana herself has. We recently saw unohana, she is an absolute monster when fighting. She continually gave the fodder treatment to kenpachi, the guy who took on quinta, even though kenpachi kept growing stronger and stronger. Eventually kenpachi did win even against unohana's bankai however.
Now, unohana being able to fight kenpachi like that is obviously quite something however looking back at the translations and scanlations I posted it would seem ichigo was not nearly capable of any of that even when he would have had his full reiatsu. Basically we know ichigo back then had somewhere in the realm of twice the reiatsu of good old unohana but at the same time even in bankai it did not seem ichigo was capable of much by captain standards. Ichigo has always been a mess when it comes to power scales however it does not seem that what varies is ichigo's actual amount of reiatsu but rather how well he is able to use it.
Now, what I am actually getting at. Ichigo in the links I posted was said to have reiatsu comparable to that of a captain even though he only had half or less of it. Now, considering the capabilities that ichigo showed at the time and the fact that unohana was able to push kenpachi like she did I am wondering if overall reiatsu levels between captains (including the likes of shunsui, ukitake, byakuya and hitsugaya but excluding yamamoto and kenpachi) is basically the same with only relatively small differences. The same could potentially apply to the espada and perhaps even the stronger stern riter. The espada are perhaps a special case considering they were ranked by reiatsu however my point is not that all captain class have an equal amount of reiatsu but rather they have comparable amounts of it.
Now, it does seem like there are significant differences between the capabilities of captains overall so if the amount of reiatsu they have is overall comparable then the differences we have seen could only be explained by differences in skill and focus when it comes to different areas of shinigami combat. Now, this would perhaps explain why leaders of groups are overall so important. Yamamoto, aizen, juhabach, kenpachi... they would be people who actually managed to break out of the captain class mold in terms of reiatsu AND skill. Now, for them to actually break from that mold they wouldn't actually need 10 times the power of a regular captain but rather they would need a signicantly smaller difference and still be as OP as they have shown to be. A number which has been used in the manga a number of times is "twice the reiatsu of a captain class shinigami". Now, if people of comparable reiatsu can be as insanely different as the manga has shown, imagine what someone with insane skill and on top of that twice the reiatsu of a captain class shinigami could do. Yamamoto was without a doubt stronger than the rest of the captains combined and aizen made the point that he was stronger than the espada combined however they wouldn't really need 10 times the reiatsu of a captain to be as powerful as they were if just having comparable amounts of reiatsu can result in the differences we have seen. Just twice would do the trick easily, its a matter of how good you are at using reiatsu.
I think is as simple as that. If Kenpachi could utilize his reiatsu to it's fullest, he would be complete monster. He is basically wasting it. If he could force his reiatsu to reinforce his body (he CAN do it, but not efficiently- battle with Ichigo) or force his reiatsu on his blade (this he can do as well, battle with Nnoitra/Yammy), he'd have much more destructive and defensive power. But he is wasting his power. Unohana could utilize her reiatsu to it's fullest so despite having less reiatsu, she didn't waste any of it. Even if she had 50% reiatsu of Kenpachi, Zaraki still wasted 80% of it, so she still had advantage. But now Kenpachi is faster and stronger. Did he get boost of reiatsu? I don't think so. He got better control of it.
Kenpachi is definitely a good example of reiatsu vs skill however what I wanted to discuss was more along the lines of how exactly the varied captain level fighter stand in regards to each other from a reiatsu point of view (with the exception of yamamoto, aizen and kenpachi who we know have superior reiatsu to the rest). Does unohana's comment imply that the vast mayority of captain class fighters actually have similar reiatsu to each other? Taking this to the extreme, lets compare unohana and mayuri in terms of reiatsu. Mayuri has IMO been shown to be one of the less physically capable shinigami around. Unohana has been shown precisely at the other. Is it possible that the amount of reiatsu each of them has can be similar? Is it possible that the actual amount of reiatsu unohana has is actually roughly even with that of the other captains?
About his Zan: Kubo would be an idiot to NOT show Unohana's zanpakuto. So either she is ALIVE (Ability HAS to be shown before character dies, Shounen Rule #32429). Or Unohana's zanpakuto was Kenpachi's, which would make no sense, but some people wrote this here. After she "died" his zanpakuto talked to him, like she was suppresing it or enslaved it. I don't really ship this theory, but it'd make sense if Kenpachi could show what that ability is. We just have to see Minazuki's ability.
I think not, Unohana and Mayrui are bad examples, for starters Unohana had Huge amounts of reiatsu to even be able to cut Zaraki thats without eye patch remember?
Mayui has shown no great feats with his reiatsu. This is why i think these are bad examples. Now if you used Shinji and Hitsugya it would make much more sense
Of course the ability to control one's reiatsu is another important aspect but it seems to me that captain-level shinigami more or less have good control over their reiatsu with few exceptions such as Kenpachi and Ichigo. Unohana is very skillful at kido, healing kido at least, and she made a perfect path for Ichigo which suggests she may also have a slight edge over others in that regard.
True, perhaps between the weakest and the strongest the difference in volume might be more noticeable... However perhaps the more appropriate way to look at it would be on to what extent would a given captain deviate from the average. However the number you mention does make sense and can work with my idea. Lets assume the average reiatsu volume captains have is 100. If mayuri has the weakest reiatsu level at 80 then unohana having 120 would not be much of a stretch. I guess that for my idea to have more weight the difference would have to be smaller.
Control is definitely important however the sheer difference it would make under an scenario in which the idea I presented is correct is quite considerable, perhaps more so than what would be obvious at first sight. Looking at unohana and assuming her reiatsu is actually similar to that of other captains does suggest that skill plays a gargantuan role overall. Unohana is a pure swordsman (swordswoman?) overall and considering the severe beating she gave kenpachi it is quite evident her swordsmanship alone does surpass the bankai of a couple of captains or the resurreccion of some espada. Overall unohana displayed insane speed, extraordinary cutting power, and her name alone implies her swordsmanship technique is insanely above what other well above average swordsmen have shown. To put it in context, ichigo with mask and bankai had a lot of trouble with grimmjow and unohana, presumably with the same or less resources (reiatsu) gave the fodder treatment to kenpachi continually over and over again. Heck, presumably unohana blocked and evaded easily the power which was enough to outright destroy quinta espada....
The whole thing ultimately implies a massive gap in skill between captains at least, one that at least for me would not be ordinarily intuitive. We would be talking about people with comparatively similar amounts of power but getting pretty dramatic differences in results when it comes to using their abilities. Unohana's swordsmanship would ultimately make the likes of byakuya's (a pretty damn good swordsman) look like an awkward kid with a heavy broomstick... And of course the skill gap(not power gap) between captains being that large also implies kenpachi must be quite above the rest in terms of reiatsu considering he is overcoming a huge skill gap with reiatsu alone.
Just to carry on with the example of Ichigo in the Garganta with Unohana, she said that his power was comparable to Captain-class with only a fraction of it. So when she restored it he should have been well above most Captains in pure magnitude of power. Yet Gin handled him pretty easily. Also, his performance against Aizen was a hell of a lot less impressive than Isshin's. Actually, Isshin, Urahara and Yoruichi each performed better against a transformed Aizen than Ichigo did against the original. In fact I'm not really sure what to make of the whole conversation with Unohana, since at no point afterwards did Ichigo actually demonstrate superiority to a Captain in either skill or power. But anyway, the difference between him and a Captain was clear throughout that whole arc. He had all the power, but they definitely know how to use it better.
Last edited by NoOneInParticular; July 01, 2013 at 07:10 PM.
Unohana said Ichigo's reiatsu was naturally rough and uncoordinated and considering that his skills were still basic compared to captains who are much more experienced, I guess it's not surprising that he couldn't make full use of his reiatsu. The "naturally" part is quite interesting, perhaps some reiatsu types are harder to control and Ichigo will never be able to excel in tasks which require precise reiatsu control like kido.
I also would like to point out that even though skill plays a very important role, some of them will ultimately be stronger than others in the long run. Shunsui said that Hitsugaya might surpass him in 100 years which suggests Hitsugaya has more reiatsu than Shunsui and once he reduces the skill gap, he will be stronger. Honestly it doesn't make much sense to me that there'll be reiatsu monsters like Yamamoto and Aizen, then a huge gap, then 12 captains who are almost equal, that would be a very weird and unbalanced distribution. Well, Yamamoto and Aizen may still be considerably stronger than their nearest rivals but I believe there may be quite a difference among the captains (hence the Unohana vs Mayuri example) but not to the extent that they can crush each other without skill.
There's also the problem how abilities fare against each other, a captain may have an ability that renders the ability of another captain useless which makes the skills regarding this ability moot. For example Yamamoto's bankai wins by default against anyone who engages in a sword fight, likewise Aizen's KS is pretty effective under such circumstances, I wonder if they could overpower Unohana with ease if they sticked to their swordsmanship skills. Isshin put up a good fight against Aizen, it's likely that Unohana could cut down Aizen if he didn't resort to his illusions. This may be another example of a skill overcoming the reiatsu difference.
I'm certain there are stronger and weaker Captains, but I don't think any one would just be able to oneshot another, with the exception of Yama, current Zaraki and maybe Unohana. I'm not so sure about Unohana; she made short work of Zaraki several times, but I think that's because his only skill is swordfighting, and that's the skill she's the master of. She exceeded him in the one area he was actually any good at. I don't think she'd have had such an easy time against anyone else.
Anyway, whilst the Captains surely aren't equal in terms of sheer magnitude of reiatsu, I don't think that's what sets them apart. Each one has their skills honed and focused in a unique set of ways. That's the more important difference between each one imo. Those charts of each ones abilities from that old databook say it best, I think. When it comes to which Captain is better than which, you have to look at their overall skills and not just how much power they can throw around. During the HM arc, Zaraki no doubt had more power than Byakuya, but that in no way means Byakuya couldn't have taken him. Now, it's probably a different story now because the gap is much larger.
It's kind of different from the Espada. They were ranked purely by reiatsu, and whilst I don't think the difference between 3 and 4, or 7 and 8 would be that great, I think reiatsu is more important for an Arrancar than a Shinigami. Nnoitra could never beat Nel because she was 5 ranks ahead, whereas I don't think you'd get the same thing between two Captains unless we're dealing with a wide margin in power. Whereas Captains fight using a skillset honed and trained in a way unique to each individual, Arrancar rely much more on innate power. As Haschwalt said, they don't need training. So, not accounting for certain hax abilities like Amor or Respira, being more powerful than the other guy matters more between Arrancar. I guess that's the reason for their ranking system, for the Espada, power=skill. It's slightly more complicated for Shinigami I think.
Captain-class is a pretty broad term. All of the Espada were Captain-class imo, but of course not all were equal. There's certainly a range power-wise, but I reckon most Captains are roughly equal in terms of ability, because their strengths and weaknesses are so varied. Amongst the Shinigami, the most deadly people are those who've mastered their skills to a greater degree. Zaraki always had tons of reiatsu, but that doesn't mean he could have taken people like Shunsui, who've got more experience and the skill to better utilise their power.