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Translations: Gintama 507 (2)
I've seen some translation problems in DGM chapters and I think could be interesting to have a threat where we can index all the possible discussions.
I'll make a list here classified by chapters with all the objections. Since i dont really know japanese i'll be just able to post here all the ones that can affect the plot of this series you share.
Shared by Defade.
Thanks to sparviero-92 and Defade
Nea's words to Allen in chp 198, from Spanish version.
If you remember another one or have something to say about the ones already written, just tell me!
Last edited by ying_su; April 22, 2011 at 05:22 AM.
I'd like to address this with my own theory since its been popping out in this next chapter predictions if Allen were to kill someone. The question was:
"What will you do if I told you. Your gonna have to kill the people you love when you become the 14th?" -Cross Marian Ch167 pages 12-13.
In Binktopias scanlation, Cross said "If I told you that when you turn into the 14th, you'll have to kill the people who are important to you...".
In the same scanlation group, ch168 page 01, Allen retorted "What do you mean I'll kill those who are important to me!!!"
In this same page where Allen said this, their was a small translators note (or at least thats how I understand the t/n there), it stated that Cross had used the word "nignen" which means "human".Allen on the other hand said "hito" which means people.
It could be that we all (this includes Allen) misinterpreted what Cross said.
We all believe (this includes me until I reread D. Gray-man cause its just that good) that since Allen will have to kill the people he love, this instantly means the people that are close to him. But now that I noticed that t/n, I believe Cross ment the entire human race in general, just like how Allen loves the akuma as a whole.
When he said kill... when you become the 14th, it all comes down to Allen having to kill human beings, which as we have seen in 195 that he refuses to do.
So instead of limiting those he might kill to those who are close to him (exorcists, science department, etc), we can include normal unimportant humans who might apprear in the story, or even the Noahs themselves. Allen did refuse to kill Road way back in chapter 3 right?
By the way, I checked onemanga, mangastream and mangafox. It only appeared in Binktopia's scanlation.
ps: I dont know how to do that spoiler hide/show thingy but had to insert the picture so that people would believe it was there.
The viz media translation says *someone you care about* so its just a 1 person to start with. And it isnt clear if this is a 14th related or a Allen related person. Well just have to see. Also be carefull with quoting fantranslations ^^ can be inacurate...
I just got my copy of vol17! ^^
So far you can facepalm all you want but its realy simple.
He (Allen/14th) has to kill someone close to him... thats what the official translation says anyways so forget about all the fan ones.
breaking it down.
Cross Marian tells him this, now he can only have a indication to this from his time with the 14th so...
-Its a person related to the heart/innocence
-Its a noah.
Cross cant fortunetell (at least not that i know of).
Still dont see how it relates to this arc cause well what does the 14th have to do with the 2nds 3rds apart from us (as fans) having our theories about it.
it doesn't mean 'someone close to you', but important human beings/humans (it might also be singular, but that's not likely)
so the fantranslation is closer to what Cross is actually saying in japanese
The official translation is not Wrong, but it's less accurate...
I don't think Cross is referring to someone in particular but to the fact that the 14th will be an enemy to humans, the humans that Allen wants to protect; the whole "my left arm for the akuma, my right arm for humans" thing...he cares about all humans and also about akuma
So someone that has a degree in japanese that translates + has contact with the writer if need be for clarification has it wrong? (possible ofc) But i dunno. Id rather leave it in the middle untill Allen varifiably starts to kill someone or some people close to him or w/e.
a) The people who are so important to you
b) The humans who are so important to you
a) Hoshino left notes
b) The translator read, understood, and followed those notes
c) Viz has contact with the writer, who naturally has time to go through each line of dialogue for clarification
d) The translator has a degree in Japanese
All of these are plucked out of thin air. I don't take particular issue with your conclusion, you're allowed to think what you like. But the justification seems kind of thin to me. You're creating an argument to authority, which is fallacious to begin with, but especially so when the level of authority of the Viz translator is totally unknown.
Before trashing my posts, do you actualy know how a publisher works? Or is that also plucked out of thin air...
The people that work there do know what they are doing. And im not saying that there is direct contact with Hoshino but at least her editor or anyone that worked on the project (dgm in this case). So the notes that go with the pannels etc and explanation and/or detailed information on characters go along with it. (at least thats how a publisher usualy works. ) Now im not into detail on Viz media but i do know publishers do their work well usualy and the people that work there got their skills and the papers to back it up.
And formost making this into a agony thread over the publishers is no good idea. And for some texts from vol 17 i doublechecked with both the spanish english and the fan translation and in some cases the fan translation is the one that is most different in interpertation. But hey lets just suport the fan translation that merely works with the raws of the manga...
Im not saying they arnt doing a great job they are, but when it comes to details they might be ...wrong? Or is the skill of fantranslators unquestionable? < my question to you.
Also that question of yours,
(a) or (b) i dunno, the Viz media translation says (someone close to you) wich is so much different it changes the entire context, then (people/humans) and (improtant) so ill check with someone who has the spanish version first before i draw my conclusions on that. At least thats how i work, double check things. Instead of just asuming, wich you asume im doing.
Last edited by ca12nag3; June 04, 2010 at 10:46 AM.
@Nagumo: Thanks for the tip about that naunce! *keeps it in mind*
@ca12nag3: You seem to have a pretty good grasp of a publisher's job and bring up some points. We won't know the truth unless one of us emails them or something though.
As for that particular line, I'll try to dig up some fan discussions in the Jap community later and see how they make it out. If there's still confusion there, then Hoshino has us just where she wants us to be - in the dark until the 14th makes his move.
That reminds me of the double meaning the Earl did in this chapter with the 14th and Allen -- the furigana of each name is the other's. Does anyone know what those mean?
Last edited by TitaniumChloride; June 04, 2010 at 11:48 AM.
a) Arguing that the translations are as I stated, and
b) Pointing out that you're making all sorts of unjustified assumptions.
For point b) for instance, you are sarcastically wondering whether fan translators are infallible, but never ask that same question about the authority you're appealing to. So I'll ask: are official translators infallible?
For instance, would Hoshino, or her editor, take the time to make detailed notes about each bubble in each panel in each page in each chapter? That's a huge time commitment. If you have evidence this actually takes place, I'm all ears. Odds are (and yes, to answer your question, I do know how publishing works, one of my best friends works at Little, Brown) that the only time communication at that level of detail happens is when there's a difficulty in translation. That phrase is quite clear, and none of the fan translators tripped over it, so why would a translator "with a degree in Japanese" do so? In fact, if the Japanese publisher were so committed to quality, instead of spending the editor or writer's (valuable) time on notes, why wouldn't they just hire their own translator?
Also, you're making a generalized argument from publishing without appealing to the difference between the publication cycles of novels and similar-length works, and manga. Manga has to be produced every week or month (as in this case). Yes, when translating a novel, you may collaborate with the author to convey the original meaning. But that author doesn't have another novel due the next month, unless he's preternaturally prolific.
You're right, turning this thread into an argument about publishing benefits nobody. And i have no quarrel with your opinion, you're entitled to it. But your reasoning is shot through with gaps. If you want to argue the meaning, you need either to directly translate the phrase yourself, with your own knowledge of the language, or provide a translation from someone whose credentials everyone can agree are valid, not a vague reference to someone who may or may not be competent and may or may not have supporting notes from the author. Right now the only thing that's concrete is the text, and the text says what I indicated in the prior post.
I leave you with this quotation from one of your prior posts (emphasis added):
Last edited by Nagumo; June 04, 2010 at 12:34 PM.
i dont even know were to start cause your all over me with your post, making it personal as in questioning what i know or not. And when someone says something you dont agree to they have to bring evidence... so how would i do that? Ask my mom to make a post for me... shesh. Even then i bet youll question if she even worked there for real. As you are questioning everything thats *real*.
Now why did i put real between *.* is simple. Your asuming that how you interpert a sentence in a manga is right or at least more possible to be right then another, yet you lack evidence to that.
Then i bring evidence of an official translation, and btw also the fan translation on diff sites has more or less the same content yet you doubt it.
Ofc anyone is entitled to their opinion but then i say so am i so leave my post alone. (as in dont seek suport for your asumptions in what i say, or use it to disprove anything i say.) What im saying is simple and comes from a direct source of how publishing works.And how the artist+editor work together with the publisher not against eachother.
That last one were im asuming Hoshino might have left notes anyone could have made some, her editor or japanese publisher. I simply put a name next to it. <thats the asumption.
And another thing, you indirectly call my mother a liar... i dunno who you are to make such a asumption but i resent that.
Oh and on top of that, why did Allen ask Cross who hed have to kill... if it was *the people* close to him... instead of someone close to him...
Last edited by ca12nag3; June 04, 2010 at 01:47 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
There's actually absolutely nothing in the context of the sentence that should make you think that it's plural. You're putting your own interpretations into your translation regarding a somewhat ambiguous line that, at best, should be left up to the reader to decide on.
However, more importantly, I can tell you for a fact that in Japan, the line was interpreted as being singular, because I've seen people discussing who they think it specifically refers to.
In fact, some people in Japan have even gone so far as to say it refers to Mana, using it as evidence for a theory that the Earl of Millenium is actually Mana (the other major piece of evidence being how similar they look from behind).
To summarize THAT theory, they think that Cross was basically saying, "If you become the 14th, you'll remember that the Earl is actually Mana, and killing him will also mean killing Mana."
Take it how you will. :/
Ive always thought of it as a singular being from the bat. Specificaly since Allen yells/screams at Cross asking who hed have to kill. Why ask who if its a summary of all the people he cares about. Basicaly that kills the entire idea of it being more then 1 person. No matter if the words could mean either in the previous sentence.
The earl being Mana is a interesting theory all on its own and goes a long way yet there is 1 mayor issue. Both Mana and the earl were at 1 place at the same time (at the grave of Mana). Were Manas akuma ( soul) is just revived by the earl. Now for the earl to be Mana youd have to seperate the noah and the human host at this point.
Yeah, I'm not really sold on the theory because Allen's got memories of the Earl turning Mana into an Akuma, though I guess there are ways that could be explained. It's interesting, at least.
This is probably not that important to the plot, but to me it's kind of interesting because the difference tells us something about Mana's personality..
In this page, there's a small bubble in which Allen notes that Mana "is really smiling" which suggests that he wasn't smiling that much even when he was with Allen:
But a friend(who's learning japanese) told me that it's supposed to be more like "he's really smiling" or "he's smiling for real" which fits more when you think about it. Mana wore a mask(both literary and symbolic ), he covered his sadness with a fake smile... Allen saw through this and picked this.. behaviour up later.. Cross did tell him to stop wearing ''Mana's mask''.. :P
So yeah, not important but interesting anyway