Sasuke and power-ups....are they free gifts or not???

[ninjabot]

If the Sharingan's so called free upgrades weren't so detrimental to the wielder, I think the Sasuke haters may actually have an argument. We've never, ever seen an instance where the original, 1 to 3 tomoe Sharingan had an ability appear out of nowhere without explination.

Infact, I don't even remember the MS being labled as the final form of the Sharingan. And then there's Sasuke's proficiency with Genjutsu. Sasuke's been training to defeat Itachi since he left Konoha, and was being tutored by a character with a high Genjutsu proficiency. Makes perfect sense to me.

Curse Seal. Sasuke fought Orochimaru because he wanted Sasuke to prove to him his strength. Well, Sasuke just wanted to save his friends, Oro had the secret agenda. He tested him, to see how far his Sharingan had progressed. It worked, thus, showing him that Sasuke may have what it takes to survive application of the curse seal, which only 1 in 10 people have what it takes to survive. Atleast, it hasn't been stated to be a random occurence. Free gift? He basically earned a Sannin's approval AND relied on his body's ability to adapt to the Curse Seal, which is no small feat.


MS. Sasuke spent his whole life fighting to gain the strength necessary to kill Itachi, and even though it wasn't enough, he still had the necessary strength to survive his assault up until the point that Itachi pulled out Susanoo, so much so that a victory on his end was a very real possibility. Maybe if Itachi had just picked up a kunai and forced Sasuke to stab him at the beginning of the fight, the way Sasuke gained MS could be considered free. But look at the real picture:

Sasuke had to kill his closest loved one to gain the MS. Even if Itachi had handed him a kunai and forced him to stab him like I said, it doesn't take away the emotional and mental strain that he suffers upon the realization that he gains later. Infact, it cost Sasuke his sanity to gain the MS, lmao. Free? Really?

Snakes and Hawks. This is the only possible argument anyone here could have in hopes of proving that Sasuke gains things for free. But, because Sasuke never summoned a snake until Orochimaru was absorbed, it makes perfect sense that he had access to them even without signing a pact with the snake clan because he had access to all of Oro's abilities thanks to absorbing him. This leaves him a chance to gain the Hawk pact, since he isn't sworn by blood to any normal pact just yet. And if you consider him gaining Oro's powers a free upgrade, remember that it was the level of Sharingan expertise he gained over his years of training that allowed him to reverse what was essentially a form of Genjutsu (Orochimaru's body stealing technique). This simply shows that he's really good at what he does.

Immunity to poison? When the hell was that even confirmed? Kakashi simply made the assumption that Sasuke was immune to poison because he Orochimaru would have taken any necessary precautions to protect his future body, aswell as because Orochimaru would have knowledge of Tsunade's poisons from spending an entire childhood training alongside her.

I'll add more BS butthurt anti-Sasuke excuses as the show up.

EDIT: Here we go, I managed to find more:

Hatred Chakra. Never once is it confirmed that he gains a higher chakra reserve thanks to his hatred. His hatred simply pushes him to pull out all the stops inorder to kill off his foe. Madara states his hatred makes hims stronger, but that's a very, veray general term as far as anyone goes. If there was an increase in power, it was the very simple, easy to recognize increase in Susuanoo's power as it evolved, which happened from Sasuke getting angry (hatred!) and pushing his body to the limit to force Susanoo out. The more he pushed, the more Susanoo developed. Sasuke didn't gain an extra reserve of chakra. His own chakra didn't grow. And his attacks didn't become any more devastating (Susanoo's did though).

[Ryr]

MS. Sasuke spent his whole life fighting to gain the strength necessary to kill Itachi, and even though it wasn't enough, he still had the necessary strength to survive his assault up until the point that Itachi pulled out Susanoo, so much so that a victory on his end was a very real possibility. Maybe if Itachi had just picked up a kunai and forced Sasuke to stab him at the beginning of the fight, the way Sasuke gained MS could be considered free. But look at the real picture:

Sasuke had to kill his closest loved one to gain the MS. Even if Itachi had handed him a kunai and forced him to stab him like I said, it doesn't take away the emotional and mental strain that he suffers upon the realization that he gains later. Infact, it cost Sasuke his sanity to gain the MS, lmao. Free? Really?

Great argument about the MS.

In truth the MS is simply a raw material. A great factory can refine the raw material into quality products, but if the same raw material is given to a noobie factory, the result is a bad product.

A great factory is one which constantly learns new, superior processing techniques and keep on improving its manufacturing capability. Obviously, the competitors would not be happy with the great factory since it steals all their customers. But instead of lamenting how it's unfair that the great factory could produce quality goods so efficiently, maybe these competitors should try to find new methods to improve their own productive capabilities for better competition.

[juUnior]

Sasuke got Deidara's elemental style through common sense - he saw the hand seals performed was of the earth element. So him finding out the earth element was not a sharingan ability, its merely a sharp observation.

Oh, I see, I had written that in the bad manner. What I thought was seeing through objects with Sharingan, and by object I meant through earth, where the mines where hidden.

Big THX jdw for claryfing things for me; sorry Delbi and Ryr for confusion, it was my bad writing such incoherent post.

The bombs are planted in shallow ground. I think if you see an area of the ground which has strangely colored spots, you would know where the bombs are too. Its not like those bombs are planted behind 10 layers of concrete walls.

I like that explanation. Till next time sth like that comes, it's probably good.

[kisame123]

I am not saying what exactly he got, but people cannot say he didn't get "power" from taking Itachi's eyes right after he said he did get "power" in his own words. I never said it would be identical to Naruto & Kyuubi. Outside power is outside power, even if the results are not identical. To say otherwise would be unreasonable.

but see, that's the problem, isn't it? is the EMS really an outside power? recall that Madara genealogically ordered the doujutsu line. The Sharingan can decode some of the tablet, the Mangekyou even more, and then the Rinnegan can do it completely. You can see that the Mangekyou is genetically closer to the Rinnegan than the Sharingan, although all doujutsu are essentially one and the same genetically. note that Madara does not differentiate the Mangekyou from the Eternal Mangekyou, rather he only refers to one and that is the Eternal Mangekyou since it is the perfected doujutsu. in other words, the EMS, despite transplanting another pair of eyes, is a way of partially restoring the lost genetics from the original doujutsu or at least getting as close to it as possible. it is essentially a part of Sasuke's DNA, it's in his genetics. I know this sounds weird and disgusting, but you have to remember that the Uchiha clan is cursed.

to better explain, let me give you an example. imagine that your great, great, great grandfather had telepathic powers. it is certainly a unique ability and that ability was genetically inherited by the next people in line. however, you being born into that family line, a few hundred years later, find that the telepathy genes are either dormant or are not strong enough, despite inbreeding between close/distant cousins, to prevent genetic pollution. if I were to offer you the choice of restoring that gene by using your ancestors' retrieved DNA and genetically augmenting your DNA, would you take it? let us say that you did end up taking that offer (without hesitation, if I might add) and a person comes to you and says that you are using an "outside power" or something that is not yours, now what? Do you see how unfair that sounds? you have the genes, despite being dormant or too weak for any significance, they are in your DNA and belong to you. can anyone say that it is not yours? sorry for the weird example, but I thought it was pretty creative...

anyways, if it wasn't a part of his genetics, then any shinobi can simply transplant another pair of eyeballs to his own and he would awaken a new doujutsu, even if he doesn't have the sharingan. Neji could transplant Hinata's Byakugan, 1+1=2, and hence, he would have the Eternal Byakugan, wouldn't he? Konohamaru can transplant Asuma's eyeballs and then he will awaken the Eternal Normal Eyes, normal but special. the only reason why the EMS exists is because the clan members have the genetic potential to awaken the new doujutsu. the new doujutsu is in their genes, it doesn't come simply from adding eyeballs to another pair. the EMS is in Sasuke's genetics, as well as all other Uchiha clan members. the Mangekyou, both the imperfect and the perfect or MS and EMS, is a way to gain power that is as close to the original doujutsu, the Rinnegan (or "true" sharingan). it is essentially the "next best thing".

[jdw]

but see, that's the problem, isn't it? is the EMS really an outside power? recall that Madara genealogically ordered the doujutsu line. The Sharingan can decode some of the tablet, the Mangekyou even more, and then the Rinnegan can do it completely. You can see that the Mangekyou is genetically closer to the Rinnegan than the Sharingan, although all doujutsu are essentially one and the same genetically. note that Madara does not differentiate the Mangekyou from the Eternal Mangekyou, rather he only refers to one and that is the Eternal Mangekyou since it is the perfected doujutsu. in other words, the EMS, despite transplanting another pair of eyes, is a way of partially restoring the lost genetics from the original doujutsu or at least getting as close to it as possible. it is essentially a part of Sasuke's DNA, it's in his genetics. I know this sounds weird and disgusting, but you have to remember that the Uchiha clan is cursed.

to better explain, let me give you an example. imagine that your great, great, great grandfather had telepathic powers. it is certainly a unique ability and that ability was genetically inherited by the next people in line. however, you being born into that family line, a few hundred years later, find that the telepathy genes are either dormant or are not strong enough, despite inbreeding between close/distant cousins, to prevent genetic pollution. if I were to offer you the choice of restoring that gene by using your ancestors' retrieved DNA and genetically augmenting your DNA, would you take it? let us say that you did end up taking that offer (without hesitation, if I might add) and a person comes to you and says that you are using an "outside power" or something that is not yours, now what? Do you see how unfair that sounds? you have the genes, despite being dormant or too weak for any significance, they are in your DNA and belong to you. can anyone say that it is not yours? sorry for the weird example, but I thought it was pretty creative...

anyways, if it wasn't a part of his genetics, then any shinobi can simply transplant another pair of eyeballs to his own and he would awaken a new doujutsu, even if he doesn't have the sharingan. Neji could transplant Hinata's Byakugan, 1+1=2, and hence, he would have the Eternal Byakugan, wouldn't he? Konohamaru can transplant Asuma's eyeballs and then he will awaken the Eternal Normal Eyes, normal but special. the only reason why the EMS exists is because the clan members have the genetic potential to awaken the new doujutsu. the new doujutsu is in their genes, it doesn't come simply from adding eyeballs to another pair. the EMS is in Sasuke's genetics, as well as all other Uchiha clan members. the Mangekyou, both the imperfect and the perfect or MS and EMS, is a way to gain power that is as close to the original doujutsu, the Rinnegan (or "true" sharingan). it is essentially the "next best thing".

This is an interesting approach to the material. Basically, you are talking about the restoration of existing potential. It isn't an approach to the material that I agree with, but I cannot dismiss it as a logical possibility. There is another outlook, however, and I will share mine with you.

I see it as the following. Sasuke has "X" within his MS/body, Itachi has "X" within his MS/body. When these X's meet as part of the transplant/merging process, they give birth to a new technique that did not exist within either individual before the combination existed. As a loose analogy, similar to a man and a woman who come together to give birth to a child by ordinary means. Each person individually has material to contribute to the existence, but neither can do it alone and the child existed in neither before the joining of materials. The combination creates the resulting child.

In the manga the transplant is said to "give birth" to a new technique:

This is to say, in my opinion, it is not possible without the contribution of another. This contribution is the power of another, in Sasuke's case, Itachi's power.

[kisame123]

This is an interesting approach to the material. Basically, you are talking about the restoration of existing potential. It isn't an approach to the material that I agree with, but I cannot dismiss it as a logical possibility. There is another outlook, however, and I will share mine with you.

I see it as the following. Sasuke has "X" within his MS/body, Itachi has "X" within his MS/body. When these X's meet as part of the transplant/merging process, they give birth to a new technique that did not exist within either individual before the combination existed. As a loose analogy, similar to a man and a woman who come together to give birth to a child by ordinary means. Each person individually has material to contribute to the existence, but neither can do it alone and the child existed in neither before the joining of materials. The combination creates the resulting child.

This is to say, in my opinion, it is not possible without the contribution of another. This contribution is the power of another, in Sasuke's case, Itachi's power.

but that is what I specifically highlighted in my argument, if it were simply a case of a power only coming into existence due to anothers, then that would apply to all characters, regardless of whether they have the sharingan or not. Rock Lee can pluck out Gai's eyeballs and transplant them to his own, but that wouldn't give him a higher doujutsu, would it? the point of interest is, "and simply gaining another's eyes didn't equate to gaining this power." in other words, only the clan members have the latent potential to awaken the doujutsu and even still, there is the further requirement for the host to be the brother. however, it is not simply a matter of transplanting the eyes. for the new doujutsu to awaken, it has to exist somewhere as a potential deep inside Sasuke's genes. it does not simply pop up by putting two eyes together, the other requirement is that the host needs to be an Uchiha and only then, by virtue of their genetics, can they awaken the doujutsu. the analogy of giving birth does not suffice because giving birth to a child, although may have requirements from both parents, is something anyone can do. in the case of the Mangekyou, you'd have to sterilize all people within a million mile radius. next, there have to be at least two people who have adapted to the sterilizing environment and can still reproduce. these people will be able to reproduce only because of their genetics, which has adapted to the environment and basically has become immune to the sterilizing effects. in other words, the child can only be born due to the genetics of the parents. this is perhaps the closest I can get to the Mangekyou using your analogy, but I am still not doing the Mangekyou justice.

I believe my example given in the previous post was a very accurate comparison with the Mangekyou. imagine yourself having the latent potential to awaken telepathy or even telekineses thanks to your ancestor's genes. however, they are too dormant or weak to surface despite your family's, Slytherin-like breeding practices of keeping "Pure Blood" (Harry Potter). so you take the option of genetically augmenting yourself with the genes of your forefathers. despite using outside assistance, these abilities cannot exist unless you already have the genes somewhere deep inside of you. as for the Mangekyou, I'm not saying that earlier Uchiha members had the Mangekyou. as a matter of fact, it's almost certain that the earlier members had the Rinnegan. however, the Mangekyou is an attempt to recreate those conditions that the early Uchiha forefathers possesed. although the methods for obtaining power are disgusting, albeit not surprising since the clan is said to be "cursed", the doujutsu cannot exist had it not been for the clan's genetic blueprints carrying that latent and hidden potential. for example, if the EMS was not in the Uchiha genes, Sasuke could transplant Itachi's eyes and nothing would happen. I hope you can agree with what I'm saying because any further comments will have a very delayed response due to preparations for my final exams!