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Thread: who is the main character in Naruto+is it a retconned series or not

  1. #31
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Franckie's Avatar
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    Re: who is the main character in Naruto+is it a retconned series or not

    Quote Originally Posted by AlB View Post
    Both Naruto and Sasuke are main characters, one is protagonist, hero another antagonist, anti-hero they represent human natures and philocopies that are completely opposite of each other Extrovert-Introvert Love-Hate Harmony-Chaos Selflessness-Egoism Forgiveness-Revenge etc. naruto cares about sasuke, while sasuke couldn't care less about him. as the story progresses these characters become complete opposites of each other (light-dark, good-evil) and this will culminate in their final confrontation at the end of manga, there's nothing wrong with both of them being main characters
    Code Geass has Lelouch and Suzaku. Berserk has Guts and Griffith. Hikaru no Go has Akira and Hikaru. Trigun has Vash and Knives. Hajime no Ippo has Ippo and Miyata. Star Wars has Anakin and Luke. All these examples have characters which illustrate concepts that tie in with several things you mention. The key difference between them and Naruto though is that the protagonists in said examples don't play second fiddle to anybody.

    Quote Originally Posted by patedecarne View Post
    Just for curiosity, does anyone knows if we have a popularity poll for the Pain saga?

    I believe that if we have such information, we can get a better outlook of Naruto(the character)'s current situation.

    Thanks.
    I'm not sure about popularity polls, but sales figures should suffice (and are much easier to find):

    Sales figures for 2009:

    - Vol. 45 (413-422): 1,222,356
    - Vol. 46 (423-432): 1,119,917
    - Vol. 47 (433-442): 1,186,478
    - Vol. 48 (443-453): 996,398

    Source: Link

    Overall, the arc sold well. Altogether, 4,525,149 were sold. The total number of 2009 sales were 6,836,494. So, the Pein Arc accounts for roughly 2/3 (~67%) of the total number of Naruto sales for the year 2009.

    What's a bit unusual though is for a series such as Naruto is despite the fact the series is normally within the top 10 yearly sales for the past decade (it's within the top 5 selling manga of "all time" for SJ), it's not considered within the top 15 manga the general Japanese audience is most receptive to:

    Spoiler: 2009 Survey for Most Entertaining Manga show


    Clearly, the general Japanese audience doesn't care all too much for the series.
    Last edited by Franckie; January 13, 2010 at 03:47 PM.

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  3. #32
    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Darth Executor's Avatar
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    Re: who is the main character in Naruto+is it a retconned series or not

    Quote Originally Posted by Franckie View Post
    Code Geass has Lelouch and Suzaku. Berserk has Guts and Griffith. Hikaru no Go has Akira and Hikaru. Trigun has Vash and Knives. Hajime no Ippo has Ippo and Miyata. Star Wars has Anakin and Luke. All these examples have characters which illustrate concepts that tie in with several things you mention. The key difference between them and Naruto though is that the protagonists in said examples don't play second fiddle to anybody.
    Luke did. Sidious would've killed him if Anakin hadn't interfered.

  4. #33
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Franckie's Avatar
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    Re: who is the main character in Naruto+is it a retconned series or not

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Executor View Post
    Luke did. Sidious would've killed him if Anakin hadn't interfered.
    Luke is not the protagonist, Anakin is. All six films detail Anakin's rise, his fall, and his redemption.

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    Re: who is the main character in Naruto+is it a retconned series or not

    Quote Originally Posted by Franckie View Post
    Luke is not the protagonist, Anakin is. All six films detail Anakin's rise, his fall, and his redemption.
    Anakin is only the protagonist in the prequels. He is in no way, shape or form the protagonist in the original.

    And if you think anakin is the protagonist in the original too, then you've still got a problem because luke kicked HIS ass and he only beat the emperor because he took him by surprise and ended up dying himself as a result. As a matter of fact, Sidious was pretty much the dominant figure throughout most of the star wars movies and held that position up until the end when his pawn suddenly turned on him, and even then he managed something of a draw by taking vader with him.

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  7. #35
    MH's Best Artist 九千以上だ! / Kyuusen Ijou Da! / It's Over 9000!
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    Re: who is the main character in Naruto+is it a retconned series or not

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Executor View Post
    Anakin is only the protagonist in the prequels. He is in no way, shape or form the protagonist in the original.

    And if you think anakin is the protagonist in the original too, then you've still got a problem because luke kicked HIS ass and he only beat the emperor because he took him by surprise and ended up dying himself as a result. As a matter of fact, Sidious was pretty much the dominant figure throughout most of the star wars movies and held that position up until the end when his pawn suddenly turned on him, and even then he managed something of a draw by taking vader with him.
    actually George Lucas wrote like 20 episode,but published only 3,but afterwards he pusblished the 3 before,which are the original,because they were actually written before

  8. #36
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Franckie's Avatar
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    Re: who is the main character in Naruto+is it a retconned series or not

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Executor View Post
    Anakin is only the protagonist in the prequels. He is in no way, shape or form the protagonist in the original.
    What Googlez_kun. The "original" trilogy is actually the second half of the story.

    Quote Quote:
    And if you think anakin is the protagonist in the original too, then you've still got a problem because luke kicked HIS ass and he only beat the emperor because he took him by surprise and ended up dying himself as a result. As a matter of fact, Sidious was pretty much the dominant figure throughout most of the star wars movies and held that position up until the end when his pawn suddenly turned on him, and even then he managed something of a draw by taking vader with him.
    Like I said - the story is about Anakin's rise, his fall, and his redemption. In the second half of the trilogy, Anakin is meant to be one of the bad guys. Luke is important in the sense that his coming-of-age story parallels Anakin's, though the key difference is that Luke won't fall from grace and be instrumental in Anakin's future redemption. Anakin also provided Luke the means (lineage) and motivation for Luke to surpass him. Finally, Luke wasn't "the Chosen One" who would bring balance to the Force. Anakin did, though he did it in an unorthodox manner (he's chiefly responsible for the destruction of the Jedi and the Sith). Even after his death, Anakin's legacy still had a major influence throughout the galaxy.

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  10. #37
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member SeventhPath's Avatar
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    Re: who is the main character in Naruto+is it a retconned series or not

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Executor View Post
    Anakin is only the protagonist in the prequels. He is in no way, shape or form the protagonist in the original.

    And if you think anakin is the protagonist in the original too, then you've still got a problem because luke kicked HIS ass and he only beat the emperor because he took him by surprise and ended up dying himself as a result. As a matter of fact, Sidious was pretty much the dominant figure throughout most of the star wars movies and held that position up until the end when his pawn suddenly turned on him, and even then he managed something of a draw by taking vader with him.
    Darth Executor, a main character is the person around which the plot unfolds.
    Th ep 1-3, that was Anakin. In ep 4-6, that was Luke.
    The main villain can have all the power he wants - he's still a secondary character.

    Luke didn't defeat the emperor on his own (his final battle didn't end with a flawless victory only for him)? So what - he's still the main character in 4-6.

    In "naruto shippuuden", Sasuke will (possibly) not win his last battle with Naruto?
    So what - Sasuke will still be the de facto main character, his last battle will still be about his conversion (much like every action Naruto undertook in Part 2 was/will be about Sasuke).
    And Naruto will still be a second fiddle whose only role in Part 2 was to convert Sasuke, completing the true main characters' story.
    Last edited by SeventhPath; January 13, 2010 at 04:45 PM.
    Spoiler: Naruto Shippuuden, the manga - the past and the fututre show

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    Re: who is the main character in Naruto+is it a retconned series or not

    Quote Originally Posted by SeventhPath View Post
    Darth Executor, a main character is the person around which the plot unfolds.
    Th ep 1-3, that was Anakin. In ep 4-6, that was Luke.
    The main villain can have all the power he wants - he's still a secondary character.
    I'm not sure why you're telling me this, I was basically saying the same thing.

    Quote Quote:
    Luke didn't defeat the emperor on his own (his final battle didn't end with a flawless victory only for him)? So what - he's still the main character in 4-6.
    Again, why are you telling me this?

    Quote Quote:
    In "naruto shippuuden", Sasuke will (possibly) not win his last battle with Naruto?
    So what - Sasuke will still be the de facto main character, his last battle will still be about his conversion (much like every action Naruto undertook in Part 2 was/will be about Sasuke).
    And Naruto will still be a second fiddle whose only role in Part 2 was to convert Sasuke, completing the true main characters' story.
    Sasuke is a main character, and second in importance only to Naruto. He is not, however, the protagonist, he is the exact opposite: the primary antagonist. Sasuke is essentially a symbol for the troubles of the ninja world and the cycle of violence that the protagonist (Naruto) is fighting against and trying to put a stop to. The story does not revolve around Sasuke per se, it revolves around the violence of the ninja world and Naruto's quest to put an end to it. Sasuke getting more screen time is not really relevant as the role of protagonist is not decided by something as irrelevant as that.

    The fact remains that the manga's name is Naruto, the story revolves around Naruto's quest to change the ninja world and Sasuke gets a lot of screen time because he needs the development since he's Naruto's mirror opposite and his primary antagonist. You will note that even Danzou and Madara's ultimate goals are peace, they're just going about it the wrong way like Pain did. Pain wanted to cause enough violence to scare people into submission. Madara plans to just mind control everyone. Danzou wanted to unite and rule the world through deception and manipulation. Sasuke's the only remaining villain whose goal is revenge rather than peace and in fact could not care less about it.

    In fact, I think I'm so good at judging the flow of the story that I'll even tell you how it'll go and how it'll end:

    The first mistake was made when Rikodu made the younger the successor. Peace is not brought about by love or power but by BOTH love and power. Love is pointless if you lack the ability to influence events. Power is useless if you do not plan to use it the good of others as they will inevitably hate you and more war will start By picking the younger and essentially taking a dump on the elder's head, Rikodu turned the two components necessary for peace against each other and the echo of this decision is still being felt throughout the ninja world. What he should have done is make them both his successors and told them both their ideals are necessary and should work together. Naruto should eventually figure this out and as spiritual successor to the younger brother, he should share his own influence with the spiritual successor to the elder brother (Sasuke). So his goal isn't merely Sasuke's redemption, but also fixing the bridge Rikodu broke between the two sides. Going along these lines, Naruto will either share the hokageship (or another position of power, but hokageship makes t he most sense) with Sasuke or just give it to him outright. This precludes Sasuke form being the protagonist because it'll all essentially be Naruto's goals and work ending successfully. It'll also piss people off to no end so that's double the bonus. ^_^


    Quote Originally Posted by Franckie View Post
    What Googlez_kun. The "original" trilogy is actually the second half of the story.
    I don't need to be told this, I already know it and it should be obvious I know it since I called episode I-III the "prequels"

    And if Lucas was planning on making 20 of them (I thought it was just 9 but whatever), the there is no main character across the entire series as Anakin shows up in 1 and dies in 9.


    Quote Quote:
    Like I said - the story is about Anakin's rise, his fall, and his redemption.
    I do not think the story is about any one thing in particular, mainly because Lucas is a horrible writer. I can just as easily say the story is about dualism and the victory of good versus evil and could make just as good an argument for it. I do not deny that anakin's rise, fall and redemption are quite important to the plot, but they are not vital. You could quite easily keep most of the plot the same while writing anakin and vader's roles out of it.

    Quote Quote:
    In the second half of the trilogy, Anakin is meant to be one of the bad guys. Luke is important in the sense that his coming-of-age story parallels Anakin's, though the key difference is that Luke won't fall from grace and be instrumental in Anakin's future redemption.
    Which is why he's the protagonist. He will succeed where his failure of a father failed. Not to mention that Anakin does not have any coherent goal other than to be the emperor's bitch in part 2. That's not a protagonist.

    Quote Quote:
    Anakin also provided Luke the means (lineage) and motivation for Luke to surpass him.
    Making him the perfect antagonist.

    Quote Quote:
    Finally, Luke wasn't "the Chosen One" who would bring balance to the Force. Anakin did, though he did it in an unorthodox manner (he's chiefly responsible for the destruction of the Jedi and the Sith).
    Except Anakin did not bring any balance to the force. The Jedi were not exterminated, they passed on their title and teachings to Luke who in turn brought about the rebirth of the jedi order (in the extended universe, but even if it hadn't, he's still a jedi). The sith were (temporarily) destroyed, which swings the balance 100% in the Jedis' favor. That's not balance by any stretch of imagination. The whole chosen one crap was just typical Lucas incoherence. I'm glad this thread reminded me of Star Wars because Kishi looks like Charles Dickens compared to Lucas.

    Quote Quote:
    Even after his death, Anakin's legacy still had a major influence throughout the galaxy.
    So does Luke's.
    Last edited by Darth Executor; January 13, 2010 at 07:53 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

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  13. #39
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member AlB's Avatar
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    Re: who is the main character in Naruto+is it a retconned series or not

    Quote Originally Posted by vizardichigo View Post
    Sasuke gets more screen time...Sasuke gets more abilites..Sasuke gets more development...I mean Naruto spent 3 years with Jiraya and didnt learn jack other than a big Rasengan and better kagebunshin control...Wow..Fucking great..Sasuke spent 3 years with Oro and was able to give Itachi a pretty decent fight...I think its clear that Kishi enjoys writing about Sasuke much more than he does Naruto which issad and one of the reasons i am starting to dislike the manga more and more..
    nah, Itachi was holding back 80-90% of his skill (I don't mean MS, Imean speed, strength, ninjutsu etc) + he was ill
    Last edited by AlB; January 14, 2010 at 05:57 AM.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member SeventhPath's Avatar
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    Re: who is the main character in Naruto+is it a retconned series or not

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Executor View Post
    I'm not sure why you're telling me this, I was basically saying the same thing.
    Not quite the same thing:

    "
    Quote Originally Posted by Franckie View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Executor View Post
    Code Geass has Lelouch and Suzaku. Berserk has Guts and Griffith. Hikaru no Go has Akira and Hikaru. Trigun has Vash and Knives. Hajime no Ippo has Ippo and Miyata. Star Wars has Anakin and Luke. All these examples have characters which illustrate concepts that tie in with several things you mention. The key difference between them and Naruto though is that the protagonists in said examples don't play second fiddle to anybody.
    Luke did. Sidious would've killed him if Anakin hadn't interfered.
    "

    Luke did not play second fiddle to anybody, either - that's what I demonstrated here:

    "Darth Executor, a main character is the person around which the plot unfolds.
    Th ep 1-3, that was Anakin. In ep 4-6, that was Luke.
    The main villain can have all the power he wants - he's still a secondary character.

    Luke didn't defeat the emperor on his own (his final battle didn't end with a flawless victory only for him)? So what - he's still the main character in 4-6.

    In "naruto shippuuden", Sasuke will (possibly) not win his last battle with Naruto?
    So what - Sasuke will still be the de facto main character, his last battle will still be about his conversion (much like every action Naruto undertook in Part 2 was/will be about Sasuke).
    And Naruto will still be a second fiddle whose only role in Part 2 was to convert Sasuke, completing the true main characters' story."

    Throughout Part 2, Naruto was and, most likely, will be "second fiddle" to Sasuke. Naruto is a de facto secondary character, whose actions are only there for Sasuke's hype and development.

    Quote Quote:
    Sasuke is a main character, and second in importance only to Naruto. He is not, however, the protagonist, he is the exact opposite: the primary antagonist. Sasuke is essentially a symbol for the troubles of the ninja world and the cycle of violence that the protagonist (Naruto) is fighting against and trying to put a stop to. The story does not revolve around Sasuke per se, it revolves around the violence of the ninja world and Naruto's quest to put an end to it. Sasuke getting more screen time is not really relevant as the role of protagonist is not decided by something as irrelevant as that.

    The fact remains that the manga's name is Naruto, the story revolves around Naruto's quest to change the ninja world and Sasuke gets a lot of screen time because he needs the development since he's Naruto's mirror opposite and his primary antagonist. You will note that even Danzou and Madara's ultimate goals are peace, they're just going about it the wrong way like Pain did. Pain wanted to cause enough violence to scare people into submission. Madara plans to just mind control everyone. Danzou wanted to unite and rule the world through deception and manipulation. Sasuke's the only remaining villain whose goal is revenge rather than peace and in fact could not care less about it.
    Sasuke is the de facto main character, second to no one in the manga. Everything in the manga revolves around him, including Naruto.
    You see, the title alone a main character does not make.

    And about the "peace" motif - I treated it in my signature. You might find my perspective interesting.

    Quote Quote:
    In fact, I think I'm so good at judging the flow of the story that I'll even tell you how it'll go and how it'll end:

    The first mistake was made when Rikodu made the younger the successor. Peace is not brought about by love or power but by BOTH love and power. Love is pointless if you lack the ability to influence events. Power is useless if you do not plan to use it the good of others as they will inevitably hate you and more war will start By picking the younger and essentially taking a dump on the elder's head, Rikodu turned the two components necessary for peace against each other and the echo of this decision is still being felt throughout the ninja world. What he should have done is make them both his successors and told them both their ideals are necessary and should work together. Naruto should eventually figure this out and as spiritual successor to the younger brother, he should share his own influence with the spiritual successor to the elder brother (Sasuke). So his goal isn't merely Sasuke's redemption, but also fixing the bridge Rikodu broke between the two sides. Going along these lines, Naruto will either share the hokageship (or another position of power, but hokageship makes t he most sense) with Sasuke or just give it to him outright. This precludes Sasuke form being the protagonist because it'll all essentially be Naruto's goals and work ending successfully. It'll also piss people off to no end so that's double the bonus.
    I also treated the probable ending of the manga - and its true nature - in my signature.
    Last edited by SeventhPath; January 14, 2010 at 08:32 AM.
    Spoiler: Naruto Shippuuden, the manga - the past and the fututre show

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    Hound of Shadow 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member benelori's Avatar
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    Re: who is the main character in Naruto+is it a retconned series or not

    Sasuke is second to Madara...actually the current plotline was instigated by Madara, as well...sasuke does the quests madara chooses...the plot itself is around uchiha not just sasuke ...this and the fact that he is antagonist doesn't make him second to nobody...
    Akatsuki is the main antagonist if we speak from terminology point of view...the fact that we know that sasuke is the rival of naruto(in any imaginable way) and we know that he will be the final villain doesn't qualify him to be calles main antagonist yet...he is yet to achieve that level...
    And if we look at the manga overall...we'll notice that it's pretty hard to develop characters in 17-19 pages of action-full illustrations.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member SeventhPath's Avatar
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    Re: who is the main character in Naruto+is it a retconned series or not

    Quote Originally Posted by benelori View Post
    Sasuke is second to Madara...actually the current plotline was instigated by Madara, as well...sasuke does the quests madara chooses...the plot itself is around uchiha not just sasuke ...this and the fact that he is antagonist doesn't make him second to nobody...
    Akatsuki is the main antagonist if we speak from terminology point of view...the fact that we know that sasuke is the rival of naruto(in any imaginable way) and we know that he will be the final villain doesn't qualify him to be calles main antagonist yet...he is yet to achieve that level...
    And if we look at the manga overall...we'll notice that it's pretty hard to develop characters in 17-19 pages of action-full illustrations.
    As I said "a main character is the person around which the plot unfolds."

    It doesn't matter that Sasuke is Madara's pokemon or that he looses fights.
    If the plot revolves around Sasuke as he is Madara's second and as he looses fights, If Sasuke instigates the main plot events in this manga, If the others characters' actions are centered around Sasuke, then Sasuke is he main character.
    Spoiler: Naruto Shippuuden, the manga - the past and the fututre show

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    Hound of Shadow 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member benelori's Avatar
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    Re: who is the main character in Naruto+is it a retconned series or not

    I'm not talking about fights...I'm talking about the plot...the plot revolves around Uchiha nowadays...the current plot was instigated by Madara...so far regarding plot there's no sasuke...sasuke is doing just the fights, which are important, but not the main elements of the plot...

    The actual plot revolves around Akatsuki vs. the world...there are important characters that represent them yes...Naruto and Sasuke...Sasuke is having screentime now?That doesn't make him the only main character...at this rate even Sabu-chan and Ponta were main characters at least for one chapter.
    The plot which is told to us has important elements, has symbols which are integrated in certain characters, there's the character development issue, has the actual storyline...declaring Sasuke second to nobody is faulty since it's based on recent events in the manga, and not all the other perspectives I mentioned. Although it's just my definition of what a main character should be, or at least that's how I learned at school and concluded from my previous lectures...so it's not iron-rule...but it's definitely not as simple as "a main character is the person around which the plot unfolds."

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member ameya730's Avatar
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    Re: who is the main character in Naruto+is it a retconned series or not

    Quote Originally Posted by SeventhPath View Post
    As I said "a main character is the person around which the plot unfolds."

    It doesn't matter that Sasuke is Madara's pokemon or that he looses fights.
    If the plot revolves around Sasuke as he is Madara's second and as he looses fights, If Sasuke instigates the main plot events in this manga, If the others characters' actions are centered around Sasuke, then Sasuke is he main character.
    i kinda disagree with the above bolded statement i dont think the plot has to unfold around a person for him to be called the main character

    for me a main character is someone who is going to have maximum imapact on the "complete story". i like to consider it analogous to the percentile system wherein the person scoring the highest is given 100% and then the rest of them get percentages based on him

    in this case naruto scores 100% since he is the main character and then there are others around him some like sasuke with more than 90 percent, some like sakura and kakashi with more than 80% and so on

    take the example of berserk majority of the plot revolves around guts and griffith with griffith hogging most of the plot points but nonetheless guts remains the main character in the manga

    similarly here sasuke might be having a major role in part 2 its naruto who has had the largest share considering both part 1 and part 2
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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  21. #45
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member SeventhPath's Avatar
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    Re: who is the main character in Naruto+is it a retconned series or not

    @benelori

    Akatsuki vs the bijuu was a secondary plot at best.
    And so far, Akatsuki vs the world is a secondary plot.

    Why? Because there was little to no development on these issues. We did not see Akatsuki taking down tailed beasts; Kishi developed Sasuke's - and yes, the Uchiha - adventures instead. And we don't see the preparations for war on either side - we see Sasuke's adventures.

    @ameya730

    Naruto's contribution to the plot was (until now) to chase after Sasuke. He will continue doing so until the end of the manga when the Naruto Sasuke battle will take place (according to Kishi).
    O, and Naruto took down a secondary villain - Pain (most likely, Kishi intended Pain to be the final villain before he decided to turn the manga into Sasuke's adventures, but that's another story).
    That's the extent of Naruto's contribution to the plot. Hardly "the maximum imapact on the "complete story".

    You see, ameya730, the person around which the plot revolves IS the person who will have the "the maximum imapact on the "complete story". There is a straightforward causal relationship between these two notions.
    Spoiler: Naruto Shippuuden, the manga - the past and the fututre show

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