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Thread: who is the main character in Naruto+is it a retconned series or not

  1. #166
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member SeventhPath's Avatar
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    Re: who is the main character in Naruto+is it a retconned series or not

    People are arguing over hypotheticals:
    If Kishi changes his mind, he can focus on Naruto and give him a few plot threads of his own, make him a main character in more than name. Sure this will happen.

    For the manga until now, Franckie said it best:
    "- Who drives the majority of the action? Sasuke.
    - Who does the plot revolve around? Sasuke.
    - Who has had more fights from start to finish? Sasuke.
    - Who does the Japanese audience care more about? Sasuke."

    For the future manga, Kishi himself, in the 2010 interview, all but shouted that he'll continue to focus on Sasuke and Naruto's only purpose will continue to be chasing after Sasuke; he said directly that Naruto will convert Sasuke AT THE END of the manga - meaning Naruto will do no "bringing peace" beyond this in the manga.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kaiten.Sama View Post
    Sasuke has had the most screen time over the last three years but I don't know if he has had a great deal of character development. He is still roughly the same character he was when part I ended - he wants revenge. Now he wants revenge against more people. Naruto had more development in the Pain arc than Sasuke has had in all of part II. Over the course of one arc Naruto's world view was spelled out for the readers, the limits of his world view were revealed, along with the difficulty of achieving his goals. Sasuke and his recent importance remain secondary to Naruto. Sasuke simply exists as Naruto's greatest obstacle, someone who has given himself over solely to violence. As such Sasuke remains secondary to Naruto, even if the focus of the story is away from the main character.
    Sasuke's development was presented in great detail.
    I agree, he didn't change that much and Kishi could have very easily used a lot less page time to develop Sasuke (indeed, this would have been preferable - quality wise). The fact that Kishi insisted so much on Sasuke's development - more than a good writer should have, in fact - proves that Kishi decided to make the manga Sasuke-centric.

    About Naruto (and the pain arc):
    "Naruto is pathetic.
    The only development he had has been to becoming even more obsessed with Sasuke. The Pain arc developments - which seemed to finally advance Naruto beyond his static, pathetic state - were quickly negated. As for the pain arc itself, it was most likely degraded from the final arc of the manga (with Pain as final villain) to some forgotten interlude.

    Power-wise - he gained his powers by training, unlike Sasuke. But that doesn't matter. What matters is that Naruto gained his up-grades almost instantaneously (like a true secondary character), while Sasuke gained his gradually.
    And, since this is an action manga, let's not forget the amount of fights Naruto and Sasuke had in Part 2 - Sasuke emerges as more developed, by far."
    Last edited by SeventhPath; February 08, 2010 at 05:35 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
    Spoiler: Naruto Shippuuden, the manga - the past and the fututre show

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  3. #167
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member kthy0056's Avatar
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    Re: who is the main character in Naruto+is it a retconned series or not

    Ohh, how wrong can several persons be . Sure, it's all a matter of personal opinion, but you really omit some things, methinks.
    ALERT: BIG POST AHEAD

    First, Sasuke WAS an important part of ... Part I. Just as now, he made lots of changes in the manga. Let's remember them, shall we?
    - The small Sharingan drama in the Zabuza arc. Kakashi having a Sharingan, Sasuke activating it himself.
    - Orochimaru entered the chunin exam just to put a curse seal on Sasuke.
    - The sound genins were deployed to fight with Sasuke and thus, activate his seal.
    (so, Orochimaru never gave a damn about Naruto. His only plot was to destroy Konoha and get Sasuke)
    - Itachi was one of the 2 Akatsuki members deployed to hunt Naruto. He is Sasuke's brother. Through him, we get to know info about Sasuke's tragic past and his motives. We also get a foreshadow of what he powers is he going to get (Mangekyou Sharingan).
    - Sasuke rescue arc, basically the same hunt Naruto obsessively deploys in part II.

    At the end of part I, we basically know that Naruto's future will be revolved about getting Sasuke back and not being captured by Akatsuki. Both of them happened in the second part.


    Part I was not necessarily about Naruto and his importance in the world. The story focused on Konoha, and its citizens. Naruto was always a subplot to this main topic.
    * Land of the waves arc - a mission. Naruto does not change its real course in anyway, he just helps finishing it with success.
    * Chunnin exams - The plot was about Orochimaru coming in Konoha, Sasuke being his prey, and all characters (new or not) trying to pass the test. Lots of battles were here, and Naruto's battle with Kiba was (I mean, it's cristal clear that Lee and Gaara had the best battle).
    * Invasion of Konoha - Orochimaru and his henchmen wage war against Konoha. He fights and kills Sandaime. Gaara is their secret weapon, that Naruto actually defeats. He defeats one major point in the siege, but Orochimaru is defeated by Hiruzen. So Naruto had some importance, but not too much.
    * New Hokage arc - Some weird organization wants Naruto but we find out more about Sasuke then about this Akatsuki. Jiraya trains him stuff and the main plot is about the 3 sannins. He changes the heart of Tsunade, has a little spare off with Kabuto, and the main battle between the giants take place.
    * Rescue Sasuke - Sasuke leaves Konoha, lots of battles follow. Naruto's battle with Sasuke is just one of them, albeit the most important.


    That's it. You need to get clear of yourself, Naruto wasn't such an important part in the manga and Sasuke was a big deal.
    Even the thing about powers. You all complain that Sasuke gets free dosage of abilities by doing nothing, and Naruto is always forced to take his time by training. Same crap happened in the first part too:
    - Sasuke trains for Chidori (off-screen, so with no real visible danger), Naruto has to face dangers such as falling through a big chasm or staying on the back of a giant toad.
    - Sasuke gets a big power-up (CS/CS2) by just staying in a box. Naruto takes his time to learn Rasengan.




    Second, people keep complaining about Naruto being obsessed with rescuing Sasuke. Again, this is a recurring theme from part I. In the first arc (second if you count the introduction chapters), when Sasuke is supposedly dead, Naruto goes in "rage mode" and viciously attacks Haku. Also, Sasuke is the reason Naruto forces himself to fight Zabuza (remember the oath he takes when he stabs himself with a kunai) or for his exhausting training. Sasuke was the reason Naruto continuously improved himself (as you can remember when he begged Kakashi to teach him Chidori too). In the end of this part, he even shows his obsession in saving Sasuke. Just try to remember how he was raging when he was trying to defeat Kimimaro.


    Also, I don't know if you followed, but Naruto seems to have this trait of saving/rescuing/converting people. He converted (or befriended) Zabuza, Lee, Neji, Gaara, Tsunade just in part one (followed by Sai and Nagato in the second). He saved Konoha twice, during the siege of Orochimaru and Pain, and Sakura when Gaara captured her. That's what he's meant to be, a live savior and changer. So, Sasuke is obviously his biggest capture, he tries (and will probably succeed) in converting the biggest and sickest evil/avenging soul existent. So it's not a problem of personality, it's the main theme this manga tries to follow.


    Speaking of personalities, I don't understand why exactly you consider Sasuke's personality to be interesting and evolving through time? I mean, Naruto at least matured after Jiraya's death. Sasuke is the same avenger who wants more power and succumbs to hatred as he was in the end of the first part (remember: he tried to kill his best friend). He's the same manipulated kid that punches holes through his problems. He recently killed Danzou and his healer just for the spite of it. Naruto sparred Nagato's life, despite him destroying so much of what he loved.


    The only "development" Sasuke got was regarding battles, regarding screen time and regarding his abilities. True, he fought more than Naruto did and with a bigger diversity of jutsus. Yet, I still enjoyed Naruto's battles and abilities for that matter. Here I'll explain why:

    1. The most obviously one, Sasuke does nothing for gaining extra powers. He mostly receives them just for the sake of it. Naruto trained for wind manipulation and sage mode (albeit not too much) and Sasuke received free gifts from Itachi. I know, he did training too, during the timeskip. But it was off-screen, we don't know what exactly was he involved in. As far as I care, Sasuke simply was drugged a lot so he can learn lots of jutsus easily. With Naruto I have to witness how he tries and succeeds in getting new abilities. And I honestly like to see less powers obtained fairly than lots of powers received as free gifts. Just sayin'!

    2. Most of Sasuke's battles are just show-offs for his new jutsus. For example:
    a) Deidara - A random Akatsuki dude standing in his way. I don't see any reason why Sasuke had to fight with him, despite showing his prowess. A good battle in which he used his brain (I honestly liked it, especially since it was the first real battle I read).
    b) Itachi - I have no quarrels with that battle, it was just as it was supposed to be. We were all expecting to see it sometime.
    c) Kirabi - Again, a battle that showcased his new MS techniques such as Amaterasu. And to introduce a new and cool character
    d) Battle with several Kages - As with Kirabi, it was meant to show his new abilities and develop them. The new one in here was the incomplete Susanoo.
    e) Danzou - I think it was just as with Itachi, but it was WAY too soon. Anyway, I kinda liked it (minus Hokage's ability of Mokuton ... ).


    The way he won this battles was ridiculous. He won against Deidara because his Sharingan was uber, his chakra nature was the natural killer of Deidara's chakra and because he was saved at the last moment by Suigetsu (which annoyed me to no end - what the heck is the purpose of the contract if someone can summon Manda with a scroll?).

    He won against Kirabi because he received some gifts and because he was revived from the death THREE TIMES.

    He escaped the wrath of 4 kages and saved MULTIPLE TIMES by Zetsu and Madara and even Gaara.

    He defeated Danzou, one of the greated shinobi from Konoha with a genjutsu (and quickly discovered his secret, probably without the help of Karin).

    His action in the manga is long, repeated and pointless. It's cannon fodder for the majority of fans who enjoy shiny and interesting attacks. Naruto's battles are WAY better. Why? Because he is not the only one participating in them. Let's recap:

    - Gaara rescue arc - He fought Deidara alongside Kakashi, and Sakura/Chiyo had their own battle too.
    - He defeated Kakuzo with his jutsu after Shikamaru, Kakashi and the others weakened him and isolated Hidan.
    - He defeated Pain with the help of Jiraya, the frogs, Kakashi, the chubby family , the interrogation squad, the decoding team and the dudes doing the anatomy.

    It's not just him showcasing his powers. Yes, I can say the same thing about Sasuke/Taka and Kirabi, but the real thing Taka managed to do in there was to save Sasuke's ass.

    Also, despite Naruto's fights being boring(because he spams his techniques), they are focused more on tactics. Sure, Sasuke uses tactics too, but not on the same level Naruto did all the time.


    As for the importance in the plot ... I think Madara is the one that really does all the important thingies in here. Sasuke just kills stuff, he's the muscle.
    Who is Sasuke? Madara's bitch.
    Who is Naruto? Konoha's hero, Konohamaru's teacher (Rasengan and Kage Bunshin), friend of various ex-enemies, role-model of Hinata.

    So, the conclusion I'm drawing out of this big post? Sasuke is truly the character with wider spread on the manga, but he is only there for the shonen factor, just to attract the audience with entertaining battles and unoriginal yet good-working character development, though he has his moments. Naruto and all characters surrounding him are much more interesting and they are the heroes of this manga.


    ha,ha,ha, I'm going to put this in my sig just because it's so big ...

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  5. #168
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Truefan21's Avatar
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    Re: who is the main character in Naruto+is it a retconned series or not

    If naruto is so interesting then why is he absent most of the time. Why is he so low in the character polls.
    For those who thank forums are for praise and worship think again http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showpo...&postcount=157

  6. #169
    MH Senpai MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Rikudou King's Avatar
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    Re: who is the main character in Naruto+is it a retconned series or not

    Good post, I can agree with several things you said. But you were wrong on some parts.

    Quote Originally Posted by kthy0056 View Post
    people keep complaining about Naruto being obsessed with rescuing Sasuke. Again, this is a recurring theme from part I. In the first arc (second if you count the introduction chapters), when Sasuke is supposedly dead, Naruto goes in "rage mode" and viciously attacks Haku. Also, Sasuke is the reason Naruto forces himself to fight Zabuza (remember the oath he takes when he stabs himself with a kunai) or for his exhausting training. Sasuke was the reason Naruto continuously improved himself (as you can remember when he begged Kakashi to teach him Chidori too). In the end of this part, he even shows his obsession in saving Sasuke. Just try to remember how he was raging when he was trying to defeat Kimimaro.


    Also, I don't know if you followed, but Naruto seems to have this trait of saving/rescuing/converting people. He converted (or befriended) Zabuza, Lee, Neji, Gaara, Tsunade just in part one (followed by Sai and Nagato in the second). He saved Konoha twice, during the siege of Orochimaru and Pain, and Sakura when Gaara captured her. That's what he's meant to be, a live savior and changer. So, Sasuke is obviously his biggest capture, he tries (and will probably succeed) in converting the biggest and sickest evil/avenging soul existent. So it's not a problem of personality, it's the main theme this manga tries to follow.
    The problem isn't that he's trying to save Sasuke, The problem is he's disregarding everything else to do it. Even though he knew Akatsuki was a threat, He cared more about finding Sasuke. His reasons for going after Itachi wasn't to stop a violent criminal, But to find Sasuke. Even after he learned that Madara was the mastermind behind Akatsuki and the one who set the Kyuubi loose from Minato, When he came face to face with Madara, It was all about Sasuke. Those others who he changed, They weren't the main focus in his mind. He did what he needed to do when he was facing them, And only then did the changing of the heart come. It's the compete opposite with Sasuke. He's only focus on Sauske unless something comes along and he has to act, I.e. Pain, And then once they're gone it's back to Sasuke.

    Quote Originally Posted by kthy0056 View Post
    Speaking of personalities, I don't understand why exactly you consider Sasuke's personality to be interesting and evolving through time? I mean, Naruto at least matured after Jiraya's death. Sasuke is the same avenger who wants more power and succumbs to hatred as he was in the end of the first part (remember: he tried to kill his best friend). He's the same manipulated kid that punches holes through his problems. He recently killed Danzou and his healer just for the spite of it. Naruto sparred Nagato's life, despite him destroying so much of what he loved.
    He also refused to kill Naruto because it was what Itachi wanted. Sauske's personality comes and goes. While Naruto did mature, He reverted right back to the same immature kid after Pain was gone. Not only that, He seem to have forgotten everything he gain during the Pain invasion.

    Quote Originally Posted by kthy0056 View Post
    1. The most obviously one, Sasuke does nothing for gaining extra powers. He mostly receives them just for the sake of it. Naruto trained for wind manipulation and sage mode (albeit not too much) and Sasuke received free gifts from Itachi. I know, he did training too, during the timeskip. But it was off-screen, we don't know what exactly was he involved in. As far as I care, Sasuke simply was drugged a lot so he can learn lots of jutsus easily. With Naruto I have to witness how he tries and succeeds in getting new abilities. And I honestly like to see less powers obtained fairly than lots of powers received as free gifts. Just sayin'!
    I don't think that's fair to say. It may not have been his intent to gain MS, But the event that led to it, Itachi's death, Was something Sasuke dedicated most of his life to it. Each and everyone of his actions in Part 1 was for that event. Being drugged wouldn't have help Sauske create the Chidori variations or Kirin. We can pretty much guess what Sasuke did during the three years. From what we saw of his techniques, He was working on nature and shape manipulation. And without the aid of clones, It would have been slow going.

    Quote Originally Posted by kthy0056 View Post
    2. Most of Sasuke's battles are just show-offs for his new jutsus. For example:
    a) Deidara - A random Akatsuki dude standing in his way. I don't see any reason why Sasuke had to fight with him, despite showing his prowess. A good battle in which he used his brain (I honestly liked it, especially since it was the first real battle I read).
    b) Itachi - I have no quarrels with that battle, it was just as it was supposed to be. We were all expecting to see it sometime.
    c) Kirabi - Again, a battle that showcased his new MS techniques such as Amaterasu. And to introduce a new and cool character
    d) Battle with several Kages - As with Kirabi, it was meant to show his new abilities and develop them. The new one in here was the incomplete Susanoo.
    e) Danzou - I think it was just as with Itachi, but it was WAY too soon. Anyway, I kinda liked it (minus Hokage's ability of Mokuton ... ).
    The same is done with Naruto. Against Itachi clone it was to show the Giant Rasengan. Against Kakuzu it was the incomplete Rasenshuriken. Against Pain, It was Sage Mode and complete FRS. Also, Deidara was the one who wanted to fight Sasuke. All Sasuke wanted was info on Itachi.

    Quote Originally Posted by kthy0056 View Post
    The way he won this battles was ridiculous. He won against Deidara because his Sharingan was uber, his chakra nature was the natural killer of Deidara's chakra and because he was saved at the last moment by Suigetsu (which annoyed me to no end - what the heck is the purpose of the contract if someone can summon Manda with a scroll?).
    He wasn't save by Suigetsu, Suigetsu just summoned Manda to that spot. Sasuke escape by having Manda reverse summoning himself.

    Quote Originally Posted by kthy0056 View Post
    He won against Kirabi because he received some gifts and because he was revived from the death THREE TIMES.
    Sasuke was only healed twice and he lost against Kirabi.

    Quote Originally Posted by kthy0056 View Post
    He escaped the wrath of 4 kages and saved MULTIPLE TIMES by Zetsu and Madara and even Gaara.
    He wasn't saved by Gaara and Zetsu just gave him some chakra. That really wasn't multiple times.

    Quote Originally Posted by kthy0056 View Post
    He defeated Danzou, one of the greated shinobi from Konoha with a genjutsu (and quickly discovered his secret, probably without the help of Karin).
    It was shown why he was able to win with the genjutsu.

    Quote Originally Posted by kthy0056 View Post
    His action in the manga is long, repeated and pointless. It's cannon fodder for the majority of fans who enjoy shiny and interesting attacks. Naruto's battles are WAY better. Why? Because he is not the only one participating in them. Let's recap:

    - Gaara rescue arc - He fought Deidara alongside Kakashi, and Sakura/Chiyo had their own battle too.
    - He defeated Kakuzo with his jutsu after Shikamaru, Kakashi and the others weakened him and isolated Hidan.
    - He defeated Pain with the help of Jiraya, the frogs, Kakashi, the chubby family , the interrogation squad, the decoding team and the dudes doing the anatomy.
    Sasuke's actions aren't repeated and pointless. It's because of him that the other characters are able to act. Without him killing Orochimaru, No Team Taka. Without killing Deidara, Madara wouldn't have revealed himself. Without him killing Itachi, Madara couldn't act in the open or could Pain attack Konoha. Without him attacking Kirabi, Ee wouldn't have called the summit. Without him killing Danzo... well that just seem to have been to erase Danzo's plotline.

    Quote Originally Posted by kthy0056 View Post
    It's not just him showcasing his powers. Yes, I can say the same thing about Sasuke/Taka and Kirabi, but the real thing Taka managed to do in there was to save Sasuke's ass.
    Both Sasuke and Naruto have been saved by others.

    Quote Originally Posted by kthy0056 View Post
    Also, despite Naruto's fights being boring(because he spams his techniques), they are focused more on tactics. Sure, Sasuke uses tactics too, but not on the same level Naruto did all the time.
    Sasuke uses tactics in more then one of his fights, Unlike Naruto.

    Quote Originally Posted by kthy0056 View Post
    As for the importance in the plot ... I think Madara is the one that really does all the important thingies in here. Sasuke just kills stuff, he's the muscle.
    Who is Sasuke? Madara's bitch.
    Who is Naruto? Konoha's hero, Konohamaru's teacher (Rasengan and Kage Bunshin), friend of various ex-enemies, role-model of Hinata.

    So, the conclusion I'm drawing out of this big post? Sasuke is truly the character with wider spread on the manga, but he is only there for the shonen factor, just to attract the audience with entertaining battles and unoriginal yet good-working character development, though he has his moments. Naruto and all characters surrounding him are much more interesting and they are the heroes of this manga.
    Sauske is more then muscle and Madara's bitch. Madara needs him for something important, Something more important then gathering the last two Jinchuuriki. Sasuke's being groomed for some role that no one else can seem to fill. Neither Sauske and Naruto are more interesting then some of the side characters. Naruto's stupidity and Sasuke's super arrogance are over shadowed by the lesser characters because we don't see them as much.

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  8. #170
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member kthy0056's Avatar
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    Re: who is the main character in Naruto+is it a retconned series or not

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    And then once they're gone it's back to Sasuke.
    Which I explained why is a good thing. He managed to change cold-hearted monsters such as Nagato, Neji and Gaara. Doing so with the most heartless of them would mean completing his work as a savior. It's a goal that he HAS to do, just as he has to be a Hokage. Or just as Sasuke wants to get revenge on someone all of his time.
    Naruto was always the guy talking with his heart instead of mind. Did he mindlessly killed Haku? Did he killed Gaara or Neji, despite them being assholes? Did he killed Nagato? How many normal ninjas would have sparred Nagato, honestly? Raikage would have sparred him? Or Kakashi?
    No, because they just don't get it. They still follow this wrong way of being a ninja, which Naruto never did since the beginning of the manga.
    If the whole world of Naruto says that Sasuke is bad and he disagrees, then he is right. Mostly .

    Remember: Some persons may be trash but those that don't value teamship are worse than trash. That's one of the first things we learn in Naruto.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    The same is done with Naruto. Against Itachi clone it was to show the Giant Rasengan. Against Kakuzu it was the incomplete Rasenshuriken. Against Pain, It was Sage Mode and complete FRS. Also, Deidara was the one who wanted to fight Sasuke. All Sasuke wanted was info on Itachi.
    But yet, those battles you mention weren't just duels between him and his enemies, unlike Sasuke. He simply did blowed a few holes in them, but many others helped. For example, against Pain: He received information from lots of characters that were facing against him, didn't he?
    Sasuke simply used his might powers to kill everyone and everything.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    He wasn't save by Suigetsu, Suigetsu just summoned Manda to that spot. Sasuke escape by having Manda reverse summoning himself.
    That doesn't make it less of an ass-pull. What's the reason to even have a contract and train for years if Suigetsu can summon you with a scroll?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Sasuke was only healed twice and he lost against Kirabi.
    The third time wasn't exactly a healing: Suigetsu made a wall of water to protect them from Hachibi's ray of death (which was a certain kill). And Kirabi just managed to evade defeat, not to win against them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    He wasn't saved by Gaara and Zetsu just gave him some chakra. That really wasn't multiple times.
    Gaara stopped Raikage from flatting him out. And it doesn't matter what Zetsu or others did to help him. The important point is that Sasuke survived the attack of multiple Kages because of his popularity, not because he was really able to do so.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    It was shown why he was able to win with the genjutsu.
    Because a guy having Sharingans on his arm for years can't remember how many eyes does he posses .


    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Sasuke's actions aren't repeated and pointless. It's because of him that the other characters are able to act. Without him killing Orochimaru, No Team Taka. Without killing Deidara, Madara wouldn't have revealed himself. Without him killing Itachi, Madara couldn't act in the open or could Pain attack Konoha. Without him attacking Kirabi, Ee wouldn't have called the summit. Without him killing Danzo... well that just seem to have been to erase Danzo's plotline.
    What's the magic word? "Killing". Without killing, he did nothing to this manga. He doesn't have anyone's trust, he believes in nothing but killing others. Naruto has something to defend, to care about.
    As for the things set in motion such as Madara acting and the summit, that wasn't his fault. As you said, Deidara fought him because he wanted so, the battle with Itachi was meant to happen sometimes, the fight with Kirabi was set in motion by Madara and so on. He never was a big player in this game, rather a pawn.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Sasuke uses tactics in more then one of his fights, Unlike Naruto.
    You jest. Sasuke's latest battles were simply meant to be DBZ rip-offs. How was Naruto's last battle? Ohh yeah, it was great .

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Sauske is more then muscle and Madara's bitch. Madara needs him for something important
    But he still manipulates him.


    Quote Originally Posted by Truefan21 View Post
    If naruto is so interesting then why is he absent most of the time. Why is he so low in the character polls.
    Twilight and Harry Potter are very popular too. Does that make them good movies?
    As I said, Sasuke is so popular because Kishimoto sold himself out. He's more of a corporate slave trying to make his many fans wet themselves with cool stuff instead of writing a good manga. So many battles of Sasuke that were so overhyped and so many "cool" attacks such as FRS or Susanoo.
    What makes Naruto as a character interesting was always the big number of supporting characters that were near him. Even Sasuke was somehow one of them. But Neji, Gaara, Lee, Orochimaru, they were all adding to a complete and beautiful story. At least that's what I believe.

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    Re: who is the main character in Naruto+is it a retconned series or not

    Quote Originally Posted by kthy0056 View Post
    Which I explained why is a good thing. He managed to change cold-hearted monsters such as Nagato, Neji and Gaara. Doing so with the most heartless of them would mean completing his work as a savior. It's a goal that he HAS to do, just as he has to be a Hokage. Or just as Sasuke wants to get revenge on someone all of his time.
    Naruto was always the guy talking with his heart instead of mind. Did he mindlessly killed Haku? Did he killed Gaara or Neji, despite them being assholes? Did he killed Nagato? How many normal ninjas would have sparred Nagato, honestly? Raikage would have sparred him? Or Kakashi?
    No, because they just don't get it. They still follow this wrong way of being a ninja, which Naruto never did since the beginning of the manga.
    If the whole world of Naruto says that Sasuke is bad and he disagrees, then he is right. Mostly .

    Remember: Some persons may be trash but those that don't value teamship are worse than trash. That's one of the first things we learn in Naruto.
    But it's different. Naruto didn't purposely try to change any of them. Against Nagato, He was stopping the invasion of Konoha and revenge for Jiraiya. Gaara, He was saving Sakura. Against Neji, He was proving his point (Well he was proving Neji's point actually). If he stuck to that method, Then he would be attempting to stop Madara's plan and along the way Sasuke would be saved. But Naruto's not worried at all about what Madara's up too. Saving Sasuke isn't gonna save the world or stop Madara. That's what should be at the foremost, Not converting Sasuke.

    Quote Originally Posted by kthy0056 View Post
    But yet, those battles you mention weren't just duels between him and his enemies, unlike Sasuke. He simply did blowed a few holes in them, but many others helped. For example, against Pain: He received information from lots of characters that were facing against him, didn't he?
    Sasuke simply used his might powers to kill everyone and everything.
    How odes that make them better? Sasuke's fights had a purpose beyond just showing off what Sasuke could do. The only fight of Naruto's like that was against Pain. And Naruto not being able to handle a fight on his own is not a good thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by kthy0056 View Post
    That doesn't make it less of an ass-pull. What's the reason to even have a contract and train for years if Suigetsu can summon you with a scroll?
    What do you mean train for years? Learning to summon isn't that hard. It shouldn't take more then a month. Most skill ninjas seem to be able to do it. It still requires the blood of someone with the contract, Which is why Suigetsu had Sasuke's blood. Having to get the contractor's blood again and again would be a hassle, Thus reason to become a contractor themselves. But Suigetsu was only doing it for an emergency. So there was no reason to become a contractor.

    Quote Originally Posted by kthy0056 View Post
    The third time wasn't exactly a healing: Suigetsu made a wall of water to protect them from Hachibi's ray of death (which was a certain kill). And Kirabi just managed to evade defeat, not to win against them.
    Suigetsu's actions didn't stop the Hachibi at all from getting his blast off. Kirabi achieved his goal of staying alive while Sasuke failed in his goal of getting Kirabi, Thus Kirabi won.

    Quote Originally Posted by kthy0056 View Post
    Gaara stopped Raikage from flatting him out. And it doesn't matter what Zetsu or others did to help him. The important point is that Sasuke survived the attack of multiple Kages because of his popularity, not because he was really able to do so.
    Ee's attack wouldn't have killed Sasuke, At most it would have caused some injury, But Sasuke had already survived worst. Ee would have been the one to die. Sasuke survived most of the attacks because of his own skills.

    Quote Originally Posted by kthy0056 View Post
    Because a guy having Sharingans on his arm for years can't remember how many eyes does he posses .
    Seeing as it seems he's had them sealed hidden for years and Danzo can't actually see out of them, It's perfectly reasonable to lose count in the middle of battle.

    Quote Originally Posted by kthy0056 View Post
    What's the magic word? "Killing". Without killing, he did nothing to this manga. He doesn't have anyone's trust, he believes in nothing but killing others. Naruto has something to defend, to care about.
    As for the things set in motion such as Madara acting and the summit, that wasn't his fault. As you said, Deidara fought him because he wanted so, the battle with Itachi was meant to happen sometimes, the fight with Kirabi was set in motion by Madara and so on. He never was a big player in this game, rather a pawn.
    If Sasuke hadn't acted, Madara wouldn't be out in the open and the summit wouldn't have happen. A pawn doesn't act on their own, Most of Sauske's actions have been for his own reasons. Things required Sasuke to get them moving. What action has Naruto caring about stuff cause? What action has him having something to defend cause? Nothing. Why did Naruto being his elemental training? Why did he work to create the FRS? Why did he learn Sage Mode? Because others told him to do them. All Naruto does is react to what others do. He has yet to do something on his own and for his own reasons beyond chasing Sasuke.

    Quote Originally Posted by kthy0056 View Post
    You jest. Sasuke's latest battles were simply meant to be DBZ rip-offs. How was Naruto's last battle? Ohh yeah, it was great .
    What? The Danzo fight showed lot of tactics. Figuring out Izanagi, Using the elemental cycle, Understanding and overcoming the weakness of his Tsukuyomi. How is that a DBZ rip off? Anyhow, How is using tactics in a fight with help greater then using tactics in a fight alone? Sauske has used more tactics in most of his fights, Naruto's one fight doesn't overcome that.

    Quote Originally Posted by kthy0056 View Post
    But he still manipulates him.
    The only thing Madara made Sasuke do is go after Kirabi. The rest of Sasuke's actions were his own choice. That's hardly manipulation.

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    Re: who is the main character in Naruto+is it a retconned series or not

    For the record neji was more of an asshole than a cold hearted villain. Gaara was psycho. It was somewhat believable when naruto changed them, since they are in the same age. But converting nagato was too inrealistic even for a shonen. It was done to justify sasuke's conversion, so until then naruto will be off screen for the most part which sucks.

    Quote Quote:
    Twilight and Harry Potter are very popular too. Does that make them good movies?
    As I said, Sasuke is so popular because Kishimoto sold himself out. He's more of a corporate slave trying to make his many fans wet themselves with cool stuff instead of writing a good manga. So many battles of Sasuke that were so overhyped and so many "cool" attacks such as FRS or Susanoo.
    What makes Naruto as a character interesting was always the big number of supporting characters that were near him. Even Sasuke was somehow one of them. But Neji, Gaara, Lee, Orochimaru, they were all adding to a complete and beautiful story. At least that's what I believe.
    Yes Harry Potter was a good movie, twilight was meh

    Yeah I agree, it was the variety of cast members that made naruto good. Too bad japan disagrees as well as kishi's editors
    For those who thank forums are for praise and worship think again http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showpo...&postcount=157

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    Re: who is the main character in Naruto+is it a retconned series or not

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    But it's different. Naruto didn't purposely try to change any of them. Against Nagato, He was stopping the invasion of Konoha and revenge for Jiraiya. Gaara, He was saving Sakura. Against Neji, He was proving his point (Well he was proving Neji's point actually). If he stuck to that method, Then he would be attempting to stop Madara's plan and along the way Sasuke would be saved. But Naruto's not worried at all about what Madara's up too. Saving Sasuke isn't gonna save the world or stop Madara. That's what should be at the foremost, Not converting Sasuke.
    That's not the point, he still is a savior.
    And about him being careless, that happens a lot with out characters. After all, they're 15/16 years old. Sasuke is technically Madara's slave, he knows the perils that he posses yet he still follows him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    How odes that make them better? Sasuke's fights had a purpose beyond just showing off what Sasuke could do. The only fight of Naruto's like that was against Pain. And Naruto not being able to handle a fight on his own is not a good thing.
    Yes it is, it adds deepness to the character. Instead of being a godly creature, he actually has friends and other characters that help him, making the story better. If Sasuke would've truly been the main character in a manga of his own, he would've been just a lonely ninja killing random guys.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    What do you mean train for years? Learning to summon isn't that hard. It shouldn't take more then a month. Most skill ninjas seem to be able to do it.
    In fact, they don't. Summons are used by Orochimaru, Jiraya, Pain, Tsunade, Kabuto, Kakashi, Danzou, Hanzou, Sasuke, Naruto and Sandaime (I might have forgot a few, sorry). Most of them are Kage level or near-Kage level.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    It still requires the blood of someone with the contract, Which is why Suigetsu had Sasuke's blood. Having to get the contractor's blood again and again would be a hassle, Thus reason to become a contractor themselves. But Suigetsu was only doing it for an emergency. So there was no reason to become a contractor.
    If that's the case, why didn't Shizune summoned Gamabunta when Jiraya was drugged or Naruto was noobish?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Suigetsu's actions didn't stop the Hachibi at all from getting his blast off. Kirabi achieved his goal of staying alive while Sasuke failed in his goal of getting Kirabi, Thus Kirabi won.
    First, what? Second, if Kirabi wanted to evade the battle, he would've run into safety from the begining since he was way faster than anyone of them. It was an obvious sparring he did and managed to escape himself at the last moment.
    Next thing, you would call Zabuza victorious because he allowed himself to get stabbed.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Ee's attack wouldn't have killed Sasuke, At most it would have caused some injury, But Sasuke had already survived worst. Ee would have been the one to die. Sasuke survived most of the attacks because of his own skills.
    read: survived because of Kishimoto's ridiculousness. Sasuke already used WAY too much of his MS abilites and continuously did so, with him only just mentioning some kind of "ache" .
    Mizukage was almost killing him when BOOM ... Zetsu comes and instantly traps her after he refreshes Sasuke's chakra.
    When Tsuchikage threw that cubic thing at him, Madara saved him. The only 2 attacks made by those Kages, he was saved by someone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Seeing as it seems he's had them sealed hidden for years and Danzo can't actually see out of them, It's perfectly reasonable to lose count in the middle of battle.
    Come on, the guy is probably sleeping or showering sometime, don't you think?
    But when he continuously checks them during battle, I'm sure he can easily count them and memorize their numbers. After all, he was one of the best Konoha shinobi, not just some random genin.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Sauske has used more tactics in most of his fights, Naruto's one fight doesn't overcome that.
    Yeah, lots of genjutsu and elemental luck and powerful things equals tactics. Naruto didn't had too much tactics in the latest battles because he didn't had too many of them. But, minus those when he's mini-Kyuubi, he used interesting tactics on all. While Sasuke spammed his powers on many of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    The only thing Madara made Sasuke do is go after Kirabi. The rest of Sasuke's actions were his own choice. That's hardly manipulation.
    Madara told Sasuke to kill the kages and teleported him in front of Danzou. That's pure manipulation!

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    Re: who is the main character in Naruto+is it a retconned series or not

    Quote Originally Posted by kthy0056 View Post
    That's not the point, he still is a savior.
    And about him being careless, that happens a lot with out characters. After all, they're 15/16 years old. Sasuke is technically Madara's slave, he knows the perils that he posses yet he still follows him.
    A savior not trying at all to stop the evil plans of the villain that will kill him and enslave all those he cares about? Some savior. Sasuke follows Madara because that's the best way to eventually kill him. He did the same thing with Orochimaru, Going along with things until Sasuke saw his chance to kill him.

    Quote Originally Posted by kthy0056 View Post
    Yes it is, it adds deepness to the character. Instead of being a godly creature, he actually has friends and other characters that help him, making the story better. If Sasuke would've truly been the main character in a manga of his own, he would've been just a lonely ninja killing random guys.
    But it hasn't deepen Naruto at all. He has completely disregarded everything he learned during his fight with Nagato. Actually, Sasuke's story would be him attempting to get revenge for his clan, Which is a common storyline for ninja stories and would be interesting. The Kouga Ninja Scrolls and Yagyu Ninja Scrolls are two good examples. A story focus just on revenge can be real interesting. That's the problem with the current storyline. Kishi is focusing on two different themes, One that he has built up quite well and the other that hasn't been built up that he's trying to pass as the main massage.

    Quote Originally Posted by kthy0056 View Post
    In fact, they don't. Summons are used by Orochimaru, Jiraya, Pain, Tsunade, Kabuto, Kakashi, Danzou, Hanzou, Sasuke, Naruto and Sandaime (I might have forgot a few, sorry). Most of them are Kage level or near-Kage level.
    Those are only the people we've seen fight. The first databook implies most seeing as it's only a C-rank technique.

    Quote Originally Posted by kthy0056 View Post
    If that's the case, why didn't Shizune summoned Gamabunta when Jiraya was drugged or Naruto was noobish?
    Did Shizune have the summoning scroll or Jiraiya's blood on hand at the time?

    Quote Originally Posted by kthy0056 View Post
    First, what? Second, if Kirabi wanted to evade the battle, he would've run into safety from the begining since he was way faster than anyone of them. It was an obvious sparring he did and managed to escape himself at the last moment.
    Next thing, you would call Zabuza victorious because he allowed himself to get stabbed.
    Suigetsu making that wall of water fail to stop the Hachibi's Menacing Ball from destroying the land around them. Kirabi tried to run away earlier remember. But Karin was able to tell Sasuke where he was. That's why he formed a clone the second time, So Sasuke would think he won. Kirabi told the Hachibi that he came up with the plan on the spur of the moment.

    Quote Originally Posted by kthy0056 View Post
    read: survived because of Kishimoto's ridiculousness. Sasuke already used WAY too much of his MS abilites and continuously did so, with him only just mentioning some kind of "ache" .
    Mizukage was almost killing him when BOOM ... Zetsu comes and instantly traps her after he refreshes Sasuke's chakra.
    When Tsuchikage threw that cubic thing at him, Madara saved him. The only 2 attacks made by those Kages, he was saved by someone.
    Please. The way Sasuke survives is no more ridiculous then the way Naruto does it. The only difference is that we knew beforehand what MS could do. He has only purposely used his MS in two fights, How is that "way too much"? Should he not use his strongest techniques against strong opponents? And Sasuke has only had his MS for a few weeks. It's too soon for the effects to become a problem. Sasuke was already handling Mei before Zetsu gave him more chakra. Zetsu just allow Sasuke to draw out a stronger Susanoo to break the wall.

    Quote Originally Posted by kthy0056 View Post
    Come on, the guy is probably sleeping or showering sometime, don't you think?
    But when he continuously checks them during battle, I'm sure he can easily count them and memorize their numbers. After all, he was one of the best Konoha shinobi, not just some random genin.
    I doubt he would unseal them just to take a shower or sleep. He counted them because he didn't know the number of times he died.

    Quote Originally Posted by kthy0056 View Post
    Yeah, lots of genjutsu and elemental luck and powerful things equals tactics. Naruto didn't had too much tactics in the latest battles because he didn't had too many of them. But, minus those when he's mini-Kyuubi, he used interesting tactics on all. While Sasuke spammed his powers on many of them.
    You're undersimplifying what he did. After learning the weak point of his Tsukuyomi, He waited until the right moment to use it when Danzo wouldn't realize it. We know since Naruto was working to create the FRS that wind powered up fire. Sasuke used the fact that Danzo was powering up his wind technique to power up his own fire technique. You can't just ignore Naruto's other fights just because he went Kyuubi. They count also. Even when Sasuke spams his techniques, He still implores strategy.

    Quote Originally Posted by kthy0056 View Post
    Madara told Sasuke to kill the kages and teleported him in front of Danzou. That's pure manipulation!
    Madara didn't tell Sauske anything about killing the Kages and Sasuke was trying his hardest to avoid them and get to Danzo. Madara let Sasuke out in front of Danzo because he knew Sasuke wanted to kill Danzo himself. It's not manipulation if the person in question wanted to do it beforehand. Manipulation would be what Orochimaru did, Getting Sasuke to leave Konoha, Something Sasuke never had a thought about beforehand.

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member kthy0056's Avatar
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    Re: who is the main character in Naruto+is it a retconned series or not

    We're running in circles. In fact, I think I contradicted myself a little in my original post but I still think that this retcon everyone talks about was not that drastic because Sasuke was the big deal in part 1 too. And I also I like the way Naruto is developed better, because it's more realistic in a certain sense.

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    Re: who is the main character in Naruto+is it a retconned series or not

    I still would have like that Naruto would have actually master some of his Kyuubi forms, Since that was the reason he went off with Jiraiya in the first place. I just don't see the reason to complete screw him on that then have Minato come in and tell him he has to use it to beat Madara. I mean really? With the Kyuubi, Naruto could easy match all the power-ups he got in Sage Mode and it wouldn't be an asspull.

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    Re: who is the main character in Naruto+is it a retconned series or not

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    I still would have like that Naruto would have actually master some of his Kyuubi forms, Since that was the reason he went off with Jiraiya in the first place. I just don't see the reason to complete screw him on that then have Minato come in and tell him he has to use it to beat Madara. I mean really? With the Kyuubi, Naruto could easy match all the power-ups he got in Sage Mode and it wouldn't be an asspull.
    I wouldn't be surprised if in 2010, Naruto's training (confirmed by Kishi as pretty much all he'll do) comprises both kyuubi training (you know, 'Minato''s jutsu) and water training (which is certainly Naruto's second element).
    Such treatement would, of course, be a sign of neglect for the character (Kishi would fast forward Naruto's power-ups, as opposed to doing them gradually, during arcs that actually matter to the plot, because he has nothing else to do for the character). This is actually my strongest argument for the prediction.

    As for kyuubi mode, I am highly unimpressed by the tailed beasts performances. Akatsuki had no trouble defeating them; 8tails' complete defeat was even shown.
    Spoiler: Naruto Shippuuden, the manga - the past and the fututre show

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    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity ashher's Avatar
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    Re: who is the main character in Naruto+is it a retconned series or not

    @kthy0056:
    i loved ur essay!!

    though i agree with most of the things that u said there......i think u've underestimated sasuke's development a bit.

    both sasuke and naruto started going in 2 directions since the end of 1st part...one in the way of revenge/destruction and one in the way of salvation/protection.this won't change until the end of course,but both of them has got layers added to their cores in each arc.its great that u appreciate the less shonen like,more realistic for a sixteen-years-normal-kid way of development of naruto,but sasuke's one has been done very well too though in more shonen-esque flashy sort of way.

    u mentioned the flashy part,but i feel there was more things hidden in them......the way he represents the oppressed ppl whom konoha 'sacrificed' for its selfish 'peace'.he also shows how ppl get screwed and turned into evil,not 'by birth'......he shows us that we create our villains,like konoha created him.


    Quote Originally Posted by kthy0056 View Post

    So, the conclusion I'm drawing out of this big post? Sasuke is truly the character with wider spread on the manga, but he is only there for the shonen factor, just to attract the audience with entertaining battles and unoriginal yet good-working character development, though he has his moments.
    well,match this quite close to the truth(imo) assessment with this
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focal_character

    so sasuke is the embodiment of the term focal character,right?not main character,eh?
    Last edited by ashher; February 11, 2010 at 07:46 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

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    Re: who is the main character in Naruto+is it a retconned series or not

    Quote Originally Posted by SeventhPath View Post
    I wouldn't be surprised if in 2010, Naruto's training (confirmed by Kishi as pretty much all he'll do) comprises both kyuubi training (you know, 'Minato''s jutsu) and water training (which is certainly Naruto's second element).
    Such treatement would, of course, be a sign of neglect for the character (Kishi would fast forward Naruto's power-ups, as opposed to doing them gradually, during arcs that actually matter to the plot, because he has nothing else to do for the character). This is actually my strongest argument for the prediction.
    Well, What else can Kishi do. There's nothing else Naruto can do til the end of the series. He made Naruto too childish and immature to play a part in the village politics. He can't have Naruto fight Sasuke or Madara because they're apart of Akatsuki so beating them would completely screw the plot up and if he had them win Kishi would have to come up with some excuse as to why they don't take Naruto right then and there. Naruto can't fight any future fodder because he has chosen not to kill in order to stop the cycle of hatred. Plainly, Kishi has made it so there's no role Naruto can play til the end of the story.

    Quote Originally Posted by SeventhPath View Post
    As for kyuubi mode, I am highly unimpressed by the tailed beasts performances. Akatsuki had no trouble defeating them; 8tails' complete defeat was even shown.
    Well, Both Jiraiya and Naruto have been beaten in Sage Mode, So just because they lost against someone doesn't mean it's not useful. If Naruto can play the hero in Sage Mode, It should be easy to do the same in the kyuubi form.

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    Re: who is the main character in Naruto+is it a retconned series or not

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Well, What else can Kishi do. There's nothing else Naruto can do til the end of the series. He made Naruto too childish and immature to play a part in the village politics. He can't have Naruto fight Sasuke or Madara because they're apart of Akatsuki so beating them would completely screw the plot up and if he had them win Kishi would have to come up with some excuse as to why they don't take Naruto right then and there. Naruto can't fight any future fodder because he has chosen not to kill in order to stop the cycle of hatred. Plainly, Kishi has made it so there's no role Naruto can play til the end of the story.
    True. Even if he tries, Kishi would have a hard time making Naruto relevant to the plot.

    But my point was that Kishi is obviously not even trying. For example, quite recently, Kishi didn't let 8tails be captured, so that Naruto is the last tailed beast and at least somewhat focused upon by Madara. And then he let Danzou be killed by Sasuke, eliminating a villain that could have been much better utilised in a Konoha (Naruto?) centric arc - again, proving that Sasuke's development takes priority over Konoha/Naruto.

    Quote Quote:
    Well, Both Jiraiya and Naruto have been beaten in Sage Mode, So just because they lost against someone doesn't mean it's not useful. If Naruto can play the hero in Sage Mode, It should be easy to do the same in the kyuubi form.
    Kyuubi has been nerfed too often to be seen as a credible final/doomsday technique:

    Kyuubi was Madara's pet; normal sharingan Sasuke surpressed it and MS can completely control it; all the tailed beasts were easily defeated by Akatsuki (without casualties on their side); Juubi appeared.

    As for kyuubi's strength, this was 'tell, not show' for the most part. And what kyuubi has shown was far overshadowed by the sharingan (and even other jutsu).

    As is the case with Naruto, kyuubi has lost any aura of 'coolness' and any tried rehabilitation would be rather unconvincing.
    Spoiler: Naruto Shippuuden, the manga - the past and the fututre show

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