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Translations: Bleach 600 (2)
I don't think Kishi is sexist, I believe that he simply follows the tendency of these type of mangas that provide more important roles to male characters, as opposite to female characters. Besides, I believe the majority of manga readers are males so that also explains part of the reason why sometimes some females are seen as "weaker" when compared to males.
I learned to accept this "smooth" difference in treatment when reading mangas but I do get pleasantly surprised when a female character gets some attention or is shown to possess and outstanding and unique attribute, that being in terms of sheer force/power or in intelligence. There are a few times however, when a female shows weakness(yes! I am looking at you Sakura!), that make me wonder, as I read that exact moment: "Was this really necessary?". I mean, I think it's ok that not all females have strong personalities but there should be at least some that do(I know a lot of girls IRL that are more manly and courageous than many men ).
As a brief conclusion, it's not something that bothers me much THAT much and I live with it, as I read mangas, but I would welcome stronger females, power-wise and character-wise.
Last edited by Curtarc; June 22, 2012 at 06:45 PM.
Last edited by metalia; June 22, 2012 at 07:29 AM.
its not because they suck its because 95 percent of them are useless. you can take out over half the women in the manga and itd still progress the same way. its an anime where the strongest are the most skilled, physical size doesnt really matter look at kakashi and almost every other nin in the series,you need skills and brain power to win a battle. women can have skills and brain power too but kishi disregards most of them and makes them fodder. he talks about them and says their skilled but shows no evidence of anything or says they have potential but never explores it.
sakura was said to be the genjutsu type but look what happened, nurse. ino has mind switching abilites but look what happened, nurse. even tsunade, shizune, kurenai, temari, tenten all of these characters with crazy potential were out shadowed severely by the men in the show. whens the last good female fight youve seen in naruto? whens the last time you saw a female fight a male on par in the series? theres been little to none and for me its hard to think of a seriously good one the only fight that comes to mind is the chiyo,sakura vs sasori but even that was 2v1. and how come there were no female nin revived? your telling me that kabuto searches the entire ninja world and only comes across maybe 2 women worth reviving? come on bro. the only woman that i can say is seriously talented for her rank is mei.
If your not a medic nin youre pretty much not any value is what im seeing. i'd like to see sakura doing genjutsu, tenten with elemental weapons like asuma and all the other female nin gaining power ups and doing what theyre apparently capable of doing besides healing.
So is kishi sexist... i think sorta, the women are there ranks for a reason but a general disregard for almost the female population in naruto makes me lean towards yes
There are many other viable reasons for this that you fail to mention within your post. 1) Kishimoto has poor female writing prowess. Personally I see this as more of an appropriate brand for Kishi than the notion of sexism. Perhaps he simply fails when it comes to understanding women. This has been alluded to on many occasions in his interviews as well - he'll say that he indeed wants to portray Sakura in a heroine manner, and even ask the females in his department for aid - but alas, he still manages to fall short. So more than likely Kishimoto is a poor writer instead of a sexist. Another thing you fail to mention is 2) Demographic. I'm sure we are all aware that the majority of Naruto readers or simply Shounen readers in general are that of younger, male children. I don't know about you personally but from what I glean I doubt a 12 year old would find much interest in Kishi pressing his story around the women in the manga or female development, when they very well could simply watch and read the action they want from the more interesting male characters - Just because it makes Kishi appear "less sexist". Such a thing is an issue from a literary perspective but from a child's perspective, nay, the notion is a footnote. If supplying to this need gives him revenue then why not simply negate the female development and follow solely on what gives your readers interest? You must also note that culturally Japan is sexist. There is and perhaps always will be the impression of inferiority amongst women. The mere fact that Kishimoto has not projected the full-on sexism of his society in this manga is remarkable. Which is more than I could say about some other works. (Worst, Death Note, etc.)
All in all I am dubious to the notion of Kishimoto being a sexist. There are far too many things to consider from biology, culture to writing prowess, and when it comes down to it, women are not oppressed, discriminated, or looked down upon in Naruto. Some hold the uttermost authority, some are the strongest within their respective villages, and all of them have a place in the world of Naruto as a Kunoichi.
thats true but there needs to be more female leaders and powerhouses in the series. we have mei and tsunade(just in terms of brute strength she hasnt shown much skill), chiyo and thats generally it. in other mangas like bleach we've got many strong capable female leaders while in naruto kishi barely shows any. he may not be sexist but he needs to shift his focus a little and show us a female nin capable of competing against men in an all out battle
---------- Post added at 08:05 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:26 AM ----------
we dont have to see any crazy ultra females but one who can actually do something would be nice
kishi would be sexist if he would say that females suck at everything flat out
he just sucks as a writer
naruto sucks as a whole, its not just females
he didn't have to flat out say they suck, a general disregard for them as nothing more than healers kinda points in that direction. name one female character in the serious besides mei or chiyo that can fight with skill and not just a basic one two combo and brute strength * cough tsunade and sakura cough cough * because all i see is two strong females and a lot of nurses.
so what you are saying is...if kishi does not feel comfortable enough to write good female characters and just concentrates on males, hes sexist
my oh my
where is this world coming to
kishi cannot even get his main plot straight
he needs to focus on that before you accuse of him doing something he does not want to do
I'm on a Tablet at the moment so bare with me if there are any substantial errors because I cannot go back over my correspondence.
"thats true but there needs to be more female leaders and powerhouses in the series. we have mei and tsunade(just in terms of brute strength she hasnt shown much skill), chiyo and thats generally it. in other mangas like bleach we've got many strong capable female leaders while in naruto kishi barely shows any. he may not be sexist but he needs to shift his focus a little and show us a female nin capable of competing against men in an all out battle"
I understand what you're saying but even within Bleach it's quite wane. From what I am aware the males are still stronger in Bleach than the women. I have not watched Bleach in quite some time but from what I recall the Gotei 13 are still largely men at the helm. Why do you suppose that is? I'd only be repeating myself at this point so I'll refrain from going in depth. Did Tsunade and Mei not display that they had the prowess to contend with the other Kage's in the battle against Madara? Are the two both not the top leaders of their respective villages? Are the women Jounin in this manga not shown to be capable leaders? Can the Anbu kunoichi not contend with the Shinobi? But I digress. While it would be appropriate from a literary perspective for Kishi to go more in-depth on the women it hardly even matters at this point. The writing it and of itself is already very flawed and dragging it out any longer would deteriorate the current quality. I say he simply shows us want we and the majority of his demographic actually wants to see. If that means negating the women then who cares? I mean really. No one is going to care if Sakura stops failing. No one is going to care if Hinata stops relying on Naruto. He can do that for an epilogue. But are they oppressed? Are they discriminated? Are they portrayed as inferior in every aspect? No they aren't. Until then I'm going to refrain from calling him sexist, especially once you consider the reasons I've already touched upon.
"I respect your opinion, but I think this is a very poor argument."
If only I cared what you thought about.
"Plus to portray a girl as a heroine is the same as protraiting a boy as a hero."
Uh, no. This right here lets me know that you have no idea what you're talking about. Generally if one is trying to portray someone of the opposite Gender in a manner of understanding they'll encounter some difficulties dealing with displaying their characters thought process. Why? Because they're of the opposite gender(Duh). Add that plus the fact that Kishimoto grew up in a culturally sexist society in Japan with brothers and people of the male gender. If he is unaware of how women with independent, strong or heroine personalities think, or how he can do it correctly, especially if society and the works of his time display to the contrary (DBZ - Chi Chi and Bulma perhaps the only women in Dragonball - main influence for Kishimoto) but he still makes the effort to and simply falls short, then that is the very definition of poor writing and poor writing prowess. I mean Kishimoto fails on many levels even with his MALE characters. If he said he's genuinely attempting to try and create women as heroines and ask the women in his department for aid, and still is trying appeal to his young and male demographic, well then I'd say branding him a sexist because you aren't satisfied is childish.
"That's not a valid argument and I'm sure you doesn't believe it either."
Might help you if you knew how to spell correctly. Perhaps that's the reason you don't understand what I'm saying. Also, don't act as if you know what the word valid means. Not after what you're slinging and passing off as an argument.
"You just have to take a look at other succesful shonen as bleach or fairy tail: they both have very strong women at the same lvl of men that have an important role in the story."
Yeahhhh also look at Death Note, Liar Game, Worst, Katekyou Hitman Reborn(who was written by a woman, go figure), Dragonball Z, Berserk, Trigun, I could go on and on. Naruto has very strong women as well in case you've been reading blind all of this time. Though I'm not too familiar with those two mangas I'm willing to bank on the idea that no woman in Bleach can defeat the brute strength of Ichigo, Urahara, Shisui, Kenpachi, Ulquiorra, etc. Why? Because for one, women are inferior biologically. I'm sure every single one of the women in Bleach who can contend with the level of a captain has some other asset or inherent quality that isn't on account of their raw power. Fairy Tail I have absolutely nill knowledge on but since it seems to be only about Wizardy and not biological strength, I'm sure the only reason women are stronger than men(if that's even true) in there is because of that, or they are simply skilled in the same areas equal to men. Same thing goes with Harry Potter and Hermoine. She isn't nearly as strong or Harry or Ron but since she's such a badass with the books and spells she outclasses them tenfold.
"kishi would be sexist if he would say that females suck at everything flat out
he just sucks as a writer
naruto sucks as a whole, its not just females
Glad someone understands it .
- Soifon is a captain of Gotei 13 and the leader of the assassination squad. Never protrayed as less capable than her male mates, and being the fastest and best fighter among them.
- According to the Databook, Unohana is statistically the most powerfull captain apart from Captain Comander Yamamoto. (I'm not including the rogue captain Aizen).
- Halibel is the 3rd strongest person in Hueco Mundo and the current Hueco Mundo leader. Neliel was also the 3rd strongest of her era.
- Rukia is far more useful, independent, powerful, heroic and important than Sakura.
- Bleach has a higher ratio of women-to-men than naruto. There's even more women liuteniant than men. Bleach probably goes like 3:1 or even 2:1 (one woman every two men), while Naruto goes 10:1. This is not because of audience tergeting, it's because Kishimoto doesn't like/want to make some of their characters as women, he simply creates men nor women and that's being sexist. And I'm not saying kishi is a bad person or that he hates women, I'm not even saying he is deliberately sexist. But the OP asked if we though he was sexist and yes, he is.
Plus even an old manga like DBZ have achieved more than Naruto: C18 effortlesly broke Vegeta's Arm with a kick. Can u imagine some female Naruto villain doing that to Sasuke? It simply WON'T happen. Why? Because Kishi can't imagine that kind of situation in which a woman efortlessly beats a man. And that, my friend, is sexism.
Again Kishi cannot be sexist just because he neglected the female characters because;
.He's made it particularly clear who he targeted as an audience
.He's made it clear that he makes a conscious effort to make sure that each that female gender gets love but he fails to deliver according to many people
.He's made sure that females have high authority even to the level of becoming president of a place
.He's made sure females participate equally in the rank system i.e genin, chuunin, jonin, anbu and kage
.He's made them relevant to the story (Without Tsunade Konoha would fall, without her Sasuke, Naruto, Neji, Lee, Choji and many more would died
Right now Kishi hasn't been giving many characters attention besides the main characters and villains so every character is now in a shadow.
I can list many strong female characters in the manga and i will:
Tsunade personal anbu is a leader who happens to be a female(i think her name was mentioned somewhere)
People need to calm down and actually thin about what they are saying even to make bold statement like Kishi is discriminating against females, that they aren't treated fairly and blah because it nonsense. Fact proves them wrong
Male-female ratio ... seriously, go fuck that. It's way too plain, to either take sexism discussions down on such a ratio, or to make males and females equal in all aspects of being human. Because they aren't - "Do men have to bare the pain of giving birth?" - which doesn't mean they couldn't do the same most of the time.
In the meantime Goku ruined that *single* strong Android 18 moment by asking whether or not she was actually a woman at the beginning of the Buu Saga. And before that she became ultimately weak against Cell.
But why are you actually defining the part of women over their battle usage ONLY? Isn't that sexist, either?
There are Tsunade, Shizune and Sakura shown as gifted medical nin, only rivaled by *one* man - Kabuto. Why doesn't that count? Nor that Tsunade protected each single one in Konoha from the Shinra Tensei blow that destroyed the village?
Last edited by hoeru; June 25, 2012 at 06:24 AM.