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Thread: Bleach in HD ?

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member TemplateR's Avatar
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    Bleach in HD ?

    moin,

    in this thread, they said that actuall Bleach episodes isn´t in HD. Is this right or not ?

    Because I wanted to see how Bleach HD ( not upscale Version ) on my 42'' LCD TV looks like and I know also, that OP and Naruto are now also in HD version is.

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    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member
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    Re: Bleach in HD ?

    IIRC bleach airs in 480p. People tend to upscale some videos before uploading them to compensate for the compression. The movies I believe are HD.

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    Re: Bleach in HD ?

    Naruto and Bleach do not run in HD.

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    Akhkharu
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    Re: Bleach in HD ?

    Bleach is broadcast in 480p. people just upscale the videos when they upload them. They aren't higher quality and they don't look any better.

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    Re: Bleach in HD ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebird View Post
    Naruto and Bleach do not run in HD.

    What also Naruto don´t run in HD ? r you mean the first Naruto Series ? Or also "Shippuuden" ?

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    Registered User 初心者/ Shoshinsha / Beginner dissentniisama's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach in HD ?

    Quote Originally Posted by TravisAxel View Post
    IIRC bleach airs in 480p. People tend to upscale some videos before uploading them to compensate for the compression. The movies I believe are HD.
    Quote Originally Posted by Akhkharu View Post
    Bleach is broadcast in 480p. people just upscale the videos when they upload them. They aren't higher quality and they don't look any better.
    The RAWs that TV-Japan release, SoulSociety (Ryugan) use, and which Flomp used/uses (whenever they actually make a release, anyway), are captured from broadcasts aired in 1080i. This 'Bleach isn't HD, it's just an upscale' business is coming mainly from posters I see referring to what Dattebayo said on the subject (and DB did show a table claiming that it's upscaled to back them up on that point, but as I seem to recall the table was mostly in Japanese, so I couldn't really interpret the rest of the data it contained, nor was their assertion all that convincing - their claim seemed to be based on the fact there was just interlacing in the stream, based on the example screenshot(s) they used...no-one said HD had to be progressive, as 'interlaced' is what the i in 1080i means, and interlacing in no way indicates upscaling, at all).

    I work with video, and have since well before the time when the so-called 'HD' releases of anime were really upscales 99% of the time, so I know what the upscales people try to pass off as HD look like. If Bleach aired in 480p and the cappers upscaled it to 720p, you would see quite obvious resizing artifacts - and there are none on those 720p RAWs (although because of the fact it's interlaced, there can be deinterlacing artifacts if the cappers don't know what they're doing). End of story.

    Now, what happens at the station before broadcast may be one thing, but if you're comparing the quality of DB's releases to the 720p ones put out by other groups, then the 720p releases blow theirs out of the water (not to mention the other groups tend not to use bad pluralization and over-Anglify the dialogue), mainly because DB's encodes look like crap since they sacrifice the features of H.264 they should be using just so they can continue to use a non-compliant container (AVI) you should never put H.264 in and that most groups abandoned using, for good reason, four or five years ago. It's a load of bull to say that the 720p versions 'don't look any better' - to prove that point, take one of the RAWs, downscale it to 848x480 using the Lanczos or Spline methods, and compare it to the 'native' 480p encodes that DB releases. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see which one looks sharper and overall free of compression noise.

    Anime in general looks very plain at pretty much any resolution, HD or not. It's full of flat colors and outlines and the 'benefit' of the larger resolutions is not often worthy of the hype, but that doesn't mean that being in a higher resolution is automatically worthless or automatically upscaled. If you downscale an HD version (720 or 1080) of something to 480, it'll be sharper and look better than something that's natively at 480, but it'll still be a marginal difference most of the time. Higher resolutions do benefit those series and movies with lots of ambient detail - live action stuff is obvious, but speaking of anime, HD would do the Kara no Kyoukai movies justice, or Rebuild of Evangelion. Series with less dynamic imagery, like Bleach, would not have *quite* the same level of benefit, but there is an increase in quality in some areas of the image. Not to mention that the upscalers in LCD TVs suck, which is why new DVD players offer upscaling to 1080p - they can do a better job at it to avoid the crap the LCD would give you.
    Last edited by dissentniisama; February 14, 2010 at 06:44 PM.

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    Re: Bleach in HD ?

    Quote Originally Posted by TemplateR View Post
    What also Naruto don´t run in HD ? r you mean the first Naruto Series ? Or also "Shippuuden" ?
    What i meant was that both "Naruto" and "naruto Shippuuden" are not produced in HD. They upscale 480p to 1080i. That's 100% truth.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member hajialibaig's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach in HD ?

    None of anime are native HD. Native HD means that the original source is 720p or higher. Bleach airs as "HD" which is basically an upscaled version of the of the original 480p..(the studio does the upscaling)

    DB takes the 480p and compresses it even further, that's why their quality is generally lower than other groups that do 480p or HD

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    Registered User 初心者/ Shoshinsha / Beginner dissentniisama's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach in HD ?

    Quote Originally Posted by hajialibaig View Post
    None of anime are native HD. Native HD means that the original source is 720p or higher.
    Source? This is 2010 - most animation studios should have already switched to a properly-HD workflow a couple years ago, even if the broadcasters use lower-quality copies to air. Especially with the Blu-ray releases that are available now - they can't all be upscaled, not even most of them (since the companies wouldn't hear the end of it - I remember the hoopla over the news that the Air Blu-rays were supposedly upscales, and that was several years ago; it simply would not be in their best interests to keep doing that; for animation the process wouldn't be as that hard to adapt, either).

    'HD' is 720p, 1080i, & 1080p, 2K, 4K, and RED Digital Cinema 2540p (720i is possible, but it's not a broadcast or disc standard). Those last three may eventually be remarketed at Ultra HD along with 8K, though. 1080i reconstructs to 1080p, and 720i would reconstruct to 720p.



    The hallmarks of an upscale are threefold: banding, line breakage, and ringing (ringing can also be seen on downscales that use certain methods). Filtering it with AviSynth generally can't mask or totally rid the upscale of these problems.






    EDIT: Seems I found the reference page and their explanations for what all that terminology is. http://gorry.haun.org/pw/?20091001_tvaformat

    According to that chart, 46 series are actually proper HD (denoted as 'HV' on that table). 19 of them are 'SD up', 3 (including Bleach) are 'SD field up', and still smaller numbers are other aspect ratio/matting differences; most Blu-ray editions are indeed of shows that fall in the proper HD range. The source pages that they use to explain what these terms mean, being run through Google Translate, strikes me as counterproductive as to what is going on. It *seems* that they're trying to say 'SD field up' refers to field-separated video that's been essentially blown up, weaved, and then blurred or smoothed.

    The problem is that, trying to replicate this methodology with a proper 720p source debunks this notion - it was still blatantly obvious what I'd done to it, and those artifacts don't appear on the RAWs. The site doesn't seem to make reference to what hardware (or software, if relevant) solution was used to produce the result, and I also can't seem to find any reference to how they found out how these series were treated by the station. So unless I can find a better resource, I wouldn't trust it.

    Here's the example. I took a source that I know is truly 720p, and compared the original to a copy I downscaled, interlaced, then upscaled to 1080, deinterlaced, then downscaled to 720p. Because there's thick lines and I used a high-quality resizer, broken lines aren't present (or aren't as present, at any rate). Ringing, however, plainly is. Open them in new tabs and switch back and forth.

    True 720p:


    Upscaled:


    The script I used to produce the upscaled copy is below:
    Code:
    Global NewHeight=1080 # Whatever
    Global NewWidth=1920 # Whatever else
    
    AVISource("foxy720p60-final-huffyv12.avi").Spline64Resize(848,480)
    
    AssumeTFF()
    
    Shift=(Height()/Float(NewHeight)-1.0)*0.25 # Field shift correction
    
    SeparateFields()
    
    Tf=SelectEven().Spline64Resize(NewWidth, NewHeight/2, 0, -Shift, Width(), Height())
    Bf=SelectOdd().Spline64Resize(NewWidth, NewHeight/2, 0, Shift, Width(), Height())
    Interleave(Tf, Bf)
    Weave()
    TFM(order=1,mode=5,PP=0,field=1,slow=2)
    Spline64Resize(1280,720)
    At most it's blurrier (but this doesn't really seem applicable to Bleach because the 720p's are rather sharp, without the usual signs of post-capture sharpening filters and the like).
    Last edited by dissentniisama; February 15, 2010 at 11:36 PM.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member hajialibaig's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach in HD ?

    Quote Originally Posted by dissentniisama View Post
    Source? This is 2010 - most animation studios should have already switched to a properly-HD workflow a couple years ago, even if the broadcasters use lower-quality copies to air. .
    Yes, you are correct. Most animation studios have already switched to proper HD, in fact, about 22/50 anime's listed here are broadcast in 1080i/720p. The information is latest (as of October 2009). I did not know that, thanks.

    Bleach, however, is not broadcast in HD. As seen in the link above, it is classified as an "SD field up" from a native 480 lines resolution.

    So, unless if you can find a source contrary to the above claim, bleach will stand as a SD - field up anime broadcast

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    Registered User 初心者/ Shoshinsha / Beginner dissentniisama's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach in HD ?

    Edited my previous post. I'd found the tvaformat page independently (and the HV portion is now 46 out of 79, ~58%, rather than 44% that 22/50 is). And as I noted/showed, they aren't releasing their sources nor their methodology to determine (or create) said upscales.

    The underlying factor why they do this to air over 1080i, is because LCD video scaling sucks, so it's higher quality to show something upscaled to 1920x1080 than to have the TV handle the 848x480->1920x1080 (or 1280x720) conversion. It's the same reason DVD players offer scaling chips - their's does a better job than the TV's will.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member hajialibaig's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach in HD ?

    Yup, doing the upscaling prior to broadcasting is always better than letting your TV do it at home (Since it doesn't have the upscaling chip). That's what they are basically doing to bleach, upscaling the 480 analog source to HD. Although, they did manage to keep the side-effects low, as you cannot see any significant artifacts, etc. Their methods/techniques must be really be something
    Last edited by hajialibaig; February 16, 2010 at 12:07 AM.

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    Registered User 初心者/ Shoshinsha / Beginner dissentniisama's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach in HD ?

    This particular uproar lately has just gotten to me a bit more, as a lot of the comments seem to be just relaying the old upscale = crap mentality. There was a time that was true (and it still pretty much is if we're talking about RAW cappers trying to fake people out on Japanese P2P networks), but it makes me wonder if any of the ones making the comments have gone and seen the captures they're talking about for themselves, and then compared it to one that isn't upscaled and/or has egregious encoding mistakes.

    I'm not defending upscaling by any means, but the least one should do prior to saying anything about quality is running it by their own eyes. I guess that's the part that's bugging me.

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    Re: Bleach in HD ?

    To be more clear, look at this:
    Bleach screenshot
    Real FHD anime screenshot

    The difference is oblivious.

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    Re: Bleach in HD ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebird View Post
    To be more clear, look at this:
    Bleach screenshot
    Real FHD anime screenshot

    The difference is obivious.
    Fixed... and yes, it is.

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