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Translations: Gintama 510 (2)
Brand new here, please move if not in correct place (moved from spoiler thread):
MangaKotlar's Danzo/Madara Brother Theory.
We all know Kishi loves history. Here is some research I collected. Begins here:
Madara and his brother Danzo, had ambitions to become the most feared warriors in the country. To directly serve the Fire Country daimyo, Kenshin. However, Kenshin believed them to be dangerous due to their seemingly demonic power. The brothers suspected this to be the case.
During the course of their conquests, they had also noticed a troubling aspect to their newly acquired MS. They realized that each time they used it, their vision became a bit less clear. They sought frantically to figure out a solution to this. During their searching the brothers stumbled upon the Sage of the Six paths, who had so immersed himself in creation of the world, that his body was withered and his sight nearly gone. Recognizing his power, the brothers pleaded for immortality. The sage consented to grant them imortality by using his Rinne Tensei, if they would sacrifice each the power of their left eyes so that he could restore his vision to power, and his body to youth. They consented and allowed the Sage to take the power of their sharingan in the left eye each, in order to fix his near-blindness. In return, the great Sage granted them eternal youth, and a fantastic power, the Mada, or 9 tails. He also showed them the way to fix their macular degeneration: They needed to exchange the eyes that had the sharingan power. They swapped their right eyes, and now both carry a permanent Sharingan in the right eye. However, Sharingan could never again be attained in the left. Many generations later they sought Orichimaru's experiments because of the potential to imbue their eyes with Sharingan once more.
They moved to operate in sync, like pincers, one brother in the top world, one in the shadow world, in order to maximize the chance of upheavel of the Fire Country's leadership. Madara faked his brother Danzo's death using their formidable genjitsu (which according to japanese mythology Danzou was renowned for). This was years before the establishment of Konoha, and although the pair was feared, few remembered Danzo for long. Madara was at the fore front of the Uchiha movement, and Danzou had become a long forgotten sacrifice. Danzou hid for a time.
Fast forward to the creation of Konoha: Madara had lost in his race for the 1st Hokage title. When Madara's support bottomed out the Daimyo ordered Madara killed, and his clan suppressed. The assasin's failed, as they faced Madara's monstrous Mada demon power (the 9 tails). Madara quickly went to Hashimara, and presented to him an appeal for an alliance against the Fire Country Daimyo. Hashimara, realizing that Madara meant to take ultimate power denied Madara's request, and due to threat to his lord, regretfully challanged Madara to a match. As we all know, Madara lost, and was impaled through the heart and all of his vital organs. Even with his immortality Madara could not recover from the damage, and for all intents an purposes, had died.
His brother Danzo was aware of the fight, and having observed Madara's loss, came to his brothers aid, and through removing the weapons in Madara's body, was able to revive him.
After his death and lofty revival, Madara changed his name to Flying Kato, or Tobi Kato, Tobi for short. He swore to take revenge against Konoha and the Daimyo, and went underground.
His brother Danzo hid, and during the 2nd Hokage's reign joined the secret, masked police force, ANBU. Although he lost to Sarutobi the 3rd Hokage position, he persisted and waited for a chance to come to power.
Madara meanwhile sought to help Danzo. When Madara realized the tremendous support the young 4th had, he became infuriated and hatched a plan. Shortly after the 4th's inaguration, he unleashed Mada, the 9 tailed beast on the village. He had counted on the 4th being killed, leaving space for his brother to rise to Hokage. He had not counted on the 4th's genius, who through tenacity and genius organization was able to repel the attack. Although the 4th had little time to prepare, he was able to stop the Kyuubi, and suspecting that the perpetrator of the attack had fantastic power, sealed half of the Kyuubi's chakra within his son, for future preparation.
Now today Danzo is in power, and Madara is close to achieving his goals. All will be revealed soon.
Note: Although unlike some previous theories, I've relied heavily on Hindu mythology, the East Asian mythologies have much crossover, and I believe that Kishi may have delved into both. Danzo is certainly explicit in Japanese mythology (http://www2.kanawa.com/japan/figure7.html), as is Tobi. I'm certain that with some etymological research one could find the connection between Madara and Mandara/Madala of hindu tradition and early Japanese religion: http://www.onmarkproductions.com/html/mandala1.shtml
The story of immortality clearly has references to this hindu legend of how the Aswin/Ashvin/Ashwin twins gained immortality from the great sage Chyavana:http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/hmvp/hmvp10.htm
Kishi has never completely adhered to Japanese religion & mythology, but has used variations on the theme. Madara is such a variation, mixing the Danzo of japanese history with Mandara of hindu mythology, and the tale of how the Aswin twins gained immortality.
Moon Eye Explanation
As far as the Moon Eye plan (a post prior to the development of the above, but merges):
As for operation "Moon Eye", I'm guessing that Danzo is Madara's brother, and the "moon" reference is both an allusion to the position in which Madara/Danzo have instilled themselves (Moon is the Sun in the Shadows, the highest position of power at night) as well as to Tsukiyami (however the hell its spelled), which is the illusion using the Moon's power. The illusion is that which Madara and his sibling have perpetrated upon the Fire Country, the villages within, and the Akutsiki organization. They plan to instill themselves in the Daimyo's post.
The reason Danzo hides his eye is because it is a permanent "on" sharingan. The EMS is perm. on because it is taken in active form from another's body. Madara is the same.
Historically, Danzo is a master of genjitsu. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kato_Danzo
"Danzo's first known genjutsu performance was when he had performed the trick of swallowing a cow in front of a rather large crowd of people. When a certain man amongst the crown had seen through Danzo's genjutsu trick, Danzo compensated for this by sowing many moonflower seeds within the ground. After the seeds had hit the ground, they had immediately began to sprout, in which vines and buds grew out of the flower, leading to its bloom. It is said that the flowers were over seventy centimeters in width, which had led to the crowd's astonishment. For unknown reasons, the certain man who had seen through Danzo's trick ended up having his body split into two sections after falling to the ground which made a large noise. The famed Uesugi Kenshin had heard of Danzo's reputation, which had led for him to invite Danzo to his prime castle. Danzo had claimed to Kenshin that his genjutsu abilities had known no bounds and that he could accomplish anything with his powers. Kenshin then tested Danzo's abilities by challenging him to sneak into a certain castle and to retrieve one of his vassal's prized long sword. Guards were employed within every post, along with lights to eliminate the darkness, and to even let loose dogs. However, Danzo had performed don kenjutsu and donjinjutsu to appear before Lord Kenshin with the long sword.
Kenshin then had believed that Danzo would be a very useful ally if he were to become one of his vassals. Kenshin soon realized that Danzo would be no more than a beast who was useful when chains were attached, but would become as furocious as a freed beast if the chains were to be broken. Kenshin had then ordered for Danzo's execution. After Danzo had been completely surrounded by Kenshin's soldiers, he said, "Now, everyone, I would like to show you something amazing". Danzo produced a large gourd and appeared to pour sake into a cup. Twenty dolls came out of the gourd and began to dance. The amusing dancing of the dolls captivated the vassal's attention, and Danzo seized the chance to escape. After this, Danzo decided to visit the famed Takeda Shingen, the nemesis of Kenshin. Just like Kenshin however, Shingen had declared Danzo as a very dangerous illusionist, and he was to be executed. Many believe that Danzo was either shot repeatedly or decapitated."
Madara and his brother have tricked the world into believing a lie. The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing humanity he didn't exist. By was of this illusion, Madara and Danzou have found the Fire Nation all gathered and unaware. It is here that the two brothers will reunite to take on the world.
Sasuke and Naruto will fight on the same side against the combined menace.
Last edited by Mangakotlar; August 08, 2009 at 06:48 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
Never read this before, and I must say that I am impressed and I like it!
I really won't find any flaws in it just because I wanna believe that's what really happened.
i forgot to say that you should prolly place this as a theory cause right now is just another thread
Last edited by Boagrious; July 29, 2009 at 09:13 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
Uhh...As I remember, the Databook clearly states that:
1.) Madara's brother's name was Uchiha Izuna and he died on the field of combat after losing both of his eyes.
2.) Danzou is confirmed to be in his seventies, he's not old enough to be Madara's brother.
While I do like the theory, the characters have already been confirmed to be different, and one has been confirmed to have met an untimely demise. Nice job on the research though, and I could see something like that having been the reason for Hashirama and Madara to fight.
I don't know... the databook is kinda messed up
while I don't think it is wrong about Madara's brother, but it could be that Izuna was said to be killed in battle but that didn't happen...
kinda like what happened to Madara...
Everyone thought he was dead and then he was alive, so its not impossible for Izuna to be walking around there
because if Izuna wasn't killed in battle, he wouldn't by age, as he is Madara's brother, he might share some of Madara's stuff because of the genes
About Danzo's confirmed date. Where's the figure backing this? I believe this kind of argument was the same one used against Tobi=Madara, since Madara had to be ~100 or older. So this I don't buy.
But the latest spoilers show Madara as the Mizukage and looking like a very young boy. I'm guessing now that both Madara and his brother swap bodies every so often to rejuvinate. This would make Madara's immortality plausible, as it would his brother's. Alongside the body swap, they swap the eyes into the new body. My speculation is that Danzo has an always on Sharingan; this could possibly be his original eye.
Lastly, Danzo could be a pseudonym; in this case it would point to Madara=Danzo=Tobi, or possibly (though unlikely) that Madara is actually Madara's brother, with Danzo = Tobi.
The ability to phase the body certainly indicates a split soul to me, and connection to the Sage of the Six Paths.
Thanks for the comment buddy !
Just thought of a new possibility
Madara actually has the capability, through EMS to control two bodies. He achieves this with something along the lines of Pain's jutsu, although a permanent version. A requirement is that each body must have one sharingan. So the right eye is sharingan and the left is a regular eye. This is clearly not Madara's original body, and he took over Danzou's soul using his eye.
However, MADARA AND DANZOU ARE ACTUALLY LITERAL PUPPETS OF RIKADOU SENSEI! Rikadou Sensei created Madara. He was the one who reserructed Madara; Madara is Mada the god of intoxication from Hindu tradition. Madara's body transfer technique is a product of his split soul, but this body transfer is Rikadou's doing.
I suspect that Madara is somehow responsible for, or connected to Pain's Rinnegan acquisition.
I do not believe the story is as simple as Madara revenge story.
I am very much convinced that Rikadou Sensei and Madara are closely linked.
Last edited by Mangakotlar; July 30, 2009 at 12:10 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
This thread is to discuss about Kishi's use of the Japanese mythology in his manga.
It might even be used to "predict" some stuff up!
Let me start by saying this :
The Tailed Beast story isn't a real mythology!
It was proven to be fake and entirely created by a fan.
So, let's not discuss this here, please!
I'll start with the easiest ones :
Izanagi and his children.
Izanagi is the God creator of Japan and he gave life to three gods...
- Amaterasu : From his left eye
- Tsukiyomi : From his right eye
- Susanoo : From his nose
We can all see how it's shown in the manga (Right eye to use Tsukiyomi, left eye to use Amaterasu, and Susanoo has a big nose )
Now, there's more to it.
Susanoo was wielding a sword named Totsuka (just like the legendary sealing sword), and in the mythology, he used it to killed Yamato no Orochi, the 8 headed snake...
Just like Itachi killed Orochimaru with the sword!
The imperial regalia :
There are three things called the Three imperial regalia :
- A sword called Kusanagi (the same as Orochimaru)
- A mirror called Yata (the same as Susanoo)
- A jewel called Yasakani no Magatama...
So, since we saw the two first, I'm pretty sure we'll see the third...
Now, I made some research and found out what this jewel looks like...
And here's a picture of the Yasakani no Magatama :
Does it remind you of something?
This, maybe :
So, I think that somehow, this will come back into being important...
The galliant Jiraiya
Probably everyone knows it already, but the whole Jiraiya-Tsunade-Orochimaru thing was taken from a japanese tale named "The Galliant Jiraiya".
There are some differences (for one, in the original story, Orochimaru was Jiraiya's student), but their name and their alliance with different type of animal (Frogs, Slugs and Snakes) is from this tale, if I recall right.
Unfortunately, the tale was never completed, but I think Kishi did a good job at finding a proper ending...
Though, I guess that in the original story, Jiraiya would have eventually killed Orochimaru and ended up with Tsunade
So, here it is...
There's probably a lot more references to mythology or japanese tales...
I also saw a huge detailing of the Izanagi family and it was showing that almost all of the Uchiha names were taken from there...
If someone could find that, it would be really great!
I think it was in a SasuSaku thread, because if I recall, there was a girl called Sakura that was marrying with a man, that could be Sasuke, or something like that.
It was rather interesting, and I was wondering if it was legit or not...
Last edited by THM Nindo; January 26, 2010 at 08:53 PM.
Here is something on Sasuke Sarutobi:
This might be an inspiration to Sasuke's and Naruto's or rather the Uchia's and Senju's rivaly.
This pretty much describes Sarutobi^^
his names is also written with those two Kanji in the manga
And I guess this was used for the Character Pain:
I don't know if i'm right,but i thought,after reading some stuff,because of Saint Young Men,that Kishimoto was probably inspired by Buddha when creating Nagato.
There are a lot of similarities between those two you can find here:
for example the fact that Buddha was nearly starving himself to death,which might explain Nagato's appearance.
Nagato was also able to control the 6 Path's and he himself was the 7th path.Buddha was said to be in every one of those,so maybe Jiraiya found every one of them while traveling and Nagato was the final reincarnation of Buddha.
Buddha,after attaining Enlightment,began teaching pupils,so i actually expected Nagato to teach Naruto or others,but i guess he was to powerful to live on in the manga.
Buddha's enlighment could be compared to Nagato converting,but i this could be too far-fetched.
Maybe you can find more similarities^^
Last edited by Googlez_kun; January 27, 2010 at 12:43 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
Omg I just had an epiphany!
Naruto will gain the Rikudou Sennin's necklace!
Good topic people.
the sasusaku thread where you might have read that theory was this... it was interesting indeed.
and i checked for the authenticity of this myth and i was able to read something from this site at the PROSPERITY AND ETERNITY section... and i quote, for those who are too lazy to check the site out (like me, at times... )
the sakusasu thread was able to create a theory regarding Sasuke's analogy/connection to Ninigi... and it was interestingly plausible... as Ninigi's mortal transformation could be parallel to Itachi, represented by Amaterasu, removed the cursed seal (seal of heaven)... anyway, the thread said it all... it is a good read... entertaining... like the tengu theory... hahahaha...
ok, enough sasusaku... i really like the Gallant Jiraiya story! it's my fave literature incorporated in Naruto!!!
Great topic...here's another one...
One of the imperial regalia, the kusanagi no tsurugi, was found by the god susano'o when he protected a village IIRC from the monster called Yamata no Orochi, a 8 headed serpent...
Yamata no Orochi was Orochimaru's last technique against Itachi...
And it's not just japanese, but the existence of the elements, and the yin and yang stuff, could be derived from mythology, early philosophy, though Kishi transformed it a bit(from 4 elements and quintessence, he made 5 elements)...
There used to be a thread like this a long time ago where we had compiled a ton of useful links and facts about different mythologies, but it has long since been lost.
It wish it could be found again. T___T
Anyways, I have a bunch of entries I could post but they are from real books and not the internets, so it will take longer to do so.
I recently read something interesting in the encyclopedia of symbols: Where the tale of Susanoo states that he killed the eight headed snake Orochi, the myth of the Weasel also says it killed a giant snake/Basilisk, so Itachi's tale is rooted in two different myths, and as far as I know, the Weasel myth is not a particular to Japanese culture.
I'll have to go through my books again and compile a bunch of info again.
i thought this was interesting:
We all know that in the manga,Hanzou was killed by Pain,but in Ame-gakure there were rumors that Pain was from the Fuuma clan,which would fit into the manga.Quote:
Out of all the mythology which Kishi has used in his manga, the most interesting one was the Realms, which created Pain. I remember convos where people sprang theories after theories about how Pain was connected to the realms etc, it was more interesting then fidning out if Itachi had Susano'o lol This was the time when we saw Pain fight Jiraiya and everyone was like "wtf? Who is he? What is he? Why is he?" lol
Yeah, it's true. I had forgotten that mythology.
For those who doesn't know, here's a recap :
Six realms of desire
All of Pain's realms were taken from the 6 realms of Desire of Buddhism.
The six lower realms are Hell, Hunger (Ghost), Animal, Anger (Asuras), Humanity and Heaven (Devas).
Hell (Hell Pain)
Hunger (Ghost Pain)
Animality (Animal Pain)
Anger (Demon Pain)
Humanity (Human Pain)
Heaven (God Pain)
There's also another theory regarding the 4 Nobles realms.
Some might see some correlation between Naruto's life and those realms:
Four higher (noble) realms
The four higher worlds are characterized by the belief that humans need to make an effort to reveal themselves from within their lives.
Learning is a condition in which one seeks some skill, lasting truth or self-improvement through the teachings of others. To access this realm, the experiencer must first develop the desire to gain wisdom and insight into the true nature of all things, free from delusion. This realm is characterized by the seeking of truth and wisdom through external sources, e.g. other people and pre-recorded information (usually texts).
Realization (or absorption)
Realization is a state in which one discovers a partial truth through one's own observations, efforts and concentration. Usually to access this realm the experiencer must first have decided external sources are inferior to internal sources, eg his/her own mind. This realm is characterized by the seeking of truth and wisdom through direct internal perception.
Bodhisattvahood is a condition in which one not only aspires for personal enlightenment but also devotes oneself to relieving the sufferings of others through compassionate and truly altruistic actions, e.g. helping others. This realm is characterized by the feeling that happiness achieved through the benefit of others is superior to happiness achieved through the benefit of only the self.
Buddhahood is the highest of the Ten Worlds, a condition of pure, indestructible happiness which is not dependent on one's circumstances. The experiencer is totally free from all delusion, suffering and anger. It is a condition of perfect and absolute freedom, characterized by boundless wisdom, courage, compassion and life force. This realm is difficult to describe and is generally only obtained through the direct internal perception of the realm of realization. This realm is characterized by not being shifted into lower realms due to external sources, and the non-reliance on external sources for happiness. This realm is manifested outwardly through the actions of the realm of bodhisattvahood.
So, seeing how Naruto is now trying to save the world by himself, I think he's already at the Bodhisattvahood realm.
I like this theory because it works well, but I wonder if Naruto will actually get to the Buddhahood...