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Translations: Bleach 600 (2)
While discussing the new chapter, I began one about whether or not there was an understandable difference between them in the narutoverse. We have seen several key characters give into and go after revenge in their desire for justice like Shikamaru and Hiden, Sasuke and Itachi, And Naruto and Nagato.
The best example of this is Team Samui. They came to Konoha in order to gain info on Sasuke in order to hunt him down and kill him for assaulting several Kumo ninjas and abducting their master Kirabi. Naruto took a firm stance against this because of his obsession with Sasuke. He refused to sale out Sasuke because he believed that if Kumo killed Sasuke, Konoha wouldn't stand for it. Now clearly Naruto was overestimating what Konoha would do. Later on, Naruto met up with the Raikage Ee and attempted to get him to allow Sasuke to live as Naruto believed Sasuke's death would cause a war between Kumo and Konoha as they got caught in a cycle of revenge.
Now I believe that Naruto's understanding of justice and revenge is messed up. While Kumo does want revenge, They also have a legitimate reason for it. In the narutoverse, If a ninja commits a crime, They have to pay for it. There's no such thing as revenge when the criminal they're after actually deserves it.
So what do you think? Is Naruto right or wrong in the way he thinks.
Well UR saying that in Narutoverse, Naruto's idea of justice is messed up, but don't forget the pain arc...break the chain of hatred
And I would say it's not that messed up if he managed to get nagato on his side, and gaara partially
It's not messed up...it's new for narutoverse
Yep, he's messed up all right.... that's why I'm really waiting for him to REALLY grow up.
Naruto's dead wrong, as Ridouku said, he underestimated the Konoha ninja, they don't care about Sasuke, and even the one Konoha ninja aside from Naruto that does (Sakura) wants to kill him.
Naruto is a child playing in a grown up world. He can't understand that things can't always go his way. He can't change everyone, hence the Raikage's stance on Sasuke.
As for the cycle of hatred, as long as humans exist, so will the cycle of hatred, there is no end to it, it's part of the way the world works. Naruto just needs to realize this.
Can we even talk about a thing such as justice in a world filled with highly trained assassins that spend their time killing and betraying each other?
I mean, was it justice when the Raikagure ambassador wanted to kidnap Hinata? Was justice served when Hyuuga killed one of their brethren and send his body to the Lighting country for a mistake they committed in the first place? No.
And quite frankly, if Naruto's been wailing after Sasuke all this time and keeps raving about peace just to give up at the end I'm gonna be pissed. I want results.
I think it is everyone's sense of "what is justice" and "what is revenge" that is messed up.
Was justice ever served for the Uchiha? If you lean towards no, then you might be inclined to think that Sasuke's murder quest is justice (to an extent). I think it was 100% justice that Sasuke killed Danzou, but others think he should be punished for murdering a Hokage.
Likewise, Shikamaru sought revenge on Hidan for killing Asuma, but that was seen as justice by most if not all. It was okay for Shikamaru to essentially (because Hidan is immortal) commit murder as retribution for Hidan's act of murder and that is seen as justice.
It's all a matter of perspective. Look at the semantics of it. There is often a negative connotation involved in the word "revenge" yet we have a positive view of the word "justice". The fact is that both are ambiguous.
Naruto is asking them to forgive instead of revenge, and yeah, that does tend to sound ridiculous doesn't it? However, Naruto has been pretty successful with his forgiveness tactic thus far, but in the real world forgiveness just doesn't cut it sometimes, you know?
Danzou was pre-Hokage - what's his character and how he kills doesn't matter in Narutoverse - but we would call him "being on the good side", while Hidan - what's his character and how he kills doesn't matter in Narutoverse - was a terrorist, a member of international wanted organization, thus we would call him "being on the bad side". Now which one fits better: revenge nr 1 or revenge nr 2? The answer would be simple: revenge nr 2 is more.. subtle, and in Narutoverse seems as to have more in common with justice than revenge nr 1. At least from Konoha perspective.Originally Posted by Kusachu
As for revenge on Itachi - considering the knowledge <or lack of that> of Sasuke, he's revenge was similar or exactly the same to that one of Shikamaru's upon Hidan <the caliber was only different, but the idea stayed the same > I would say if Shikamaru wanted to kill Hokage instead, he would be put to jail and nobody would help him, haha.
btw. I don't dwell into politics xd
This is what I wrote in another thread and it works here. Justice is basically a debt to society. Revenge is selfish desire for retribution. In this manga this seems to be severely messed up and confused though. Justice as a debt to society is objective while revenge as a selfish desire is subjective to anyone. Given that, it is clear that most characters in this manga do not seek justice but just vengeance. Even shikamaru, once he caught hidan should have seek to keep him alive and get him prosecuted rather than burying him had he truly wanted justice.
The Narutoverse is a world much like the ancient, and even the Pre Renaissance world were an eye for an eye was a viable thing.
Naruto is essentially trying to bridge the gap to a world much like ours, were there is a legal way of dealing with wrong doers and what not.
I say the biggest difference is the same as it is in the real world.
Revenge is self serving. At it's core revenge is about what the one who seeks revenge wants. Inherently personal.
Justice is done for the good of all. At it's core it's about fair punishment for actions proportional to the crime committed. Inherently impersonal.
Naruto was right in denying to help Samui's team toward Sasuke, what they wanted was revenge. What Shikamaru and company planned to do, that would have probably been justice. Justice isn't about what will make the person carrying it out feel better it's about what the person receiving it deserves.
Last edited by Jammin; July 14, 2010 at 10:04 PM.
Team Samui was going after Sasuke as official representatives of Kumo. They weren't attempting to kill him for their own desires. They were following the orders of their village. The only reason it's considered revenege is because they were personally affected by Sasuke's crime. But that doesn't make it revenge. As far as Kumo and Konoha was concern, Sasuke had to die. Killing Sasuke on the order of their village is justices.
That maybe so but what motivated Samui's team and the Raikage was a personal sense of revenge for what happened with Killer Bee. Their judgment that Sasuke should die was based on their own feelings, rather than being about fair punishment for what Sasuke had done.
I'm not saying death is unjust punishment for him based on the things he's done, just that those who wanted him dead for personal reasons are not the appropriate people to be making that decision nor the ones fit to enforce it.
Therein is the difference between justice and revenge. Revenge is personal. Justice is not.
Last edited by Jammin; March 01, 2010 at 12:37 AM.
As far as we've known and seen, Death is the fair punishment for a major crime in the ninja world. Considering that Kumo is an ally of Konoha, I would think that attacking one of their ninjas would be the same as attacking a ninja from the same village. Not to mention being part of a criminal organization.
It's not as if they inflated what Sasuke had done to suit their own needs. They may have focused merely on what happen to Kirabi, But as far as they knew, Sasuke assaulted several of their ninjas with the intention of killing Kirabi. If being connected to the crime meant that they couldn't go after justice, Then none of the villages could go after their missingnin. For example, Jiraiya was once teammates with and disliked Orochimaru. Does that mean he shouldn't have been allow to go after him? Naruto's reason for going after Nagato is because he killed his master and attack his village, So should he just remove himself from the fight because he had personal feelings for the victims? A person is capable of going after justice even if they have a personal stake in the events. Ee sent Team Samui to Konoha not only to inform them of what happen, But to make sure they would help in getting Sasuke and he called the summit to make sure the other villages knew to kill Sasuke. They may have wanted to kill Sasuke personally, But they would still have been happy with him just being dead. They merely wanted him dead, Regardless of who actually did it.
They didn't just feel he needed to die.
They wanted to kill him. They hated him. They wanted revenge and i don't blame Naruto for not helping them try and get it.
I think Sasuke probably deserves to die but, in order for that to be an act of justice instead of an act of revenge, the one who carries out that duty would have to be devoid of personal hatred or a personal grudge against him. Someone like Naruto, Kakashi, or Sakura.
If the one killing him has a personal grudge then that is revenge plain and simple.