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Thread: Justice and Revenge

  1. #16
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    Re: Justice and Revenge

    Like I said, They wanted to kill Sasuke personally, But they were also fine with someone else doing it. They were fine with getting Konoha to go along with it and they wanted the other villages to know about hunting Sasuke down. At the summit, Ee had Sauske escape right in front of him, So of course he would be upset, Especially after what he went through to get him. But it isn't like he and Team Samui dropped everything to just fine and kill Sasuke.

    None of the villages are devoid of a personal grudge against Sasuke except possibly Iwa. Naruto as of yet continues to try to save and protect Sasuke from his victims, Kakashi is hesitant to finish him and merely wants him to change his ways, And I have no idea what's up with Sakura but she apparently is the most involved emotionally with Sasuke after Naruto. If the person killing him have backing of not only their own village, but the other villages, then it doesn't matter if they have a personal grudge. It's just as much about justice as it is about revenge.

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    Re: Justice and Revenge

    this is all a very tricky subject. Shikamaru's deed wheren't considered much as evil becouse he wanted to revenge his teacher, killed at the hands of a murderous terrorist. Asuma didn't commited any crimes (that we know off, be he must have killes many ninjas before), and was killed by Hidan just becouse he felt like it and wanted his bounty. So we can say that Shikamaru had moral grounds to take revenge on his own hands (and one more important thing, he saw the hole thing, he wasn't informed by a 3rd party, so he knew exactly what had happened).
    Sasuke's case is much more complicated. Supposadly, the Uchiha clan was whiped out for the "grater good". meaning, they all where killed so that the village could carry on beeing the way they where. Had the Uchiha clan not beeing destroyed the way they where, means only that there was no place to a "coup d'etat", becouse if there had been a war between konoha and Uchiha, the Uchiha clan could've been also whiped out, but there would've been casualties from both sides, not just from one, and many innocent lives would've been destroyed, and all this just few years after the Kyuubi attack, making the village even more unprepared to an outside attack. So, in a way, what the elders made that night may be considered justice. Is sasuke right to persue the elders for revenge? maybe, but i think the greatest diference is the means he uses to reach his "justice". he's trying to achieve his own "justice" what ever it takes, even if it means taking inocent lives, or even sacrificing the lives of the ones that helped him up to this point, making his actions more "evelish" (the way he was willing to kill Karin, Sakura and Kakashi). i bellieve that what makes sasuke's actions bad, is becouse he's trying to avenge someone that was wrong from the beggining, the Uchihas had no reason for a coup d'etat, they wanted to ascend as the rullers of konoha, even if they where discriminated which remains unproven), they could've just mooved to another country, but they chose to fight, and so konoha tried to defend themselves. Plus, with Uchiha's reputation from wanting to gather power at all cost (the activation of MS, and even EMS) indicates that the Uchihas aren't that fellowship as we thought in the beggining.

  3. #18
    Harasho 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Kaiten's Avatar
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    Re: Justice and Revenge

    Sasuke has been portrayed as evil because of his callous disregard for human life. When his sole target was Itachi he was not really portrayed as evil. You could even sympathize with him, the lone survivor of his clan out to reclaim their honor. That they happened to be killed by his beloved older brother made him almost a tragic figure. Their were always hints he was being overcome by hate and anger, that he could become evil. Since avenging Sasuke he has become the embodiment of evil. da_ni covered the reasons well, I don't need to reiterate. But prior to the Itachi fight he harmed no one but villains. At the time all we knew about Itachi was that he was a mass murderer and part of an evil organization. He deserved death, same as Orochimaru.

  4. #19
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted gnut's Avatar
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    Re: Justice and Revenge

    guys this is setting up for sasuke and naruto vs madara.i mean we're finding out that he had something to do with both their parent's deaths.just remember the stress put on naruto by sasuke about not knowing how he felt,losing someone.that is what's going to wake sasuke up,to the fact that naruto is sincere about them being brothers even if it's not blood.then they stomp a mud hole in madara.lol.

  5. #20
    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity elitefox's Avatar
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    Re: Justice and Revenge

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    Naruto's dead wrong, as Ridouku said, he underestimated the Konoha ninja, they don't care about Sasuke, and even the one Konoha ninja aside from Naruto that does (Sakura) wants to kill him.

    Naruto is a child playing in a grown up world. He can't understand that things can't always go his way. He can't change everyone, hence the Raikage's stance on Sasuke.

    As for the cycle of hatred, as long as humans exist, so will the cycle of hatred, there is no end to it, it's part of the way the world works. Naruto just needs to realize this.
    It will end if the humansninja system are eradicated

    well, as long as humans crave for power. there will be greed, envy, lust there wont be any peace. Even if all of us are pervs and we understand each other since we are the same, not 2 pervs will share sighting place

    There will always be a complement of each element in the world
    rich and poor
    black and white
    happy and sad
    agree and disagree
    .
    .
    .
    love and hate
    birth and death

    There will be no hate if there is no love
    There will be no death if there is no one living


    You cannot erase the other while sustaining the other except if we are mindless bots


    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    The Narutoverse is a world much like the ancient, and even the Pre Renaissance world were an eye for an eye was a viable thing.

    Naruto is essentially trying to bridge the gap to a world much like ours, were there is a legal way of dealing with wrong doers and what not.
    Lol our worlds is as messy as them if not worst


    Quote Originally Posted by Jammin View Post
    That maybe so but what motivated Samui's team and the Raikage was a personal sense of revenge for what happened with Killer Bee. Their judgment that Sasuke should die was based on their own feelings, rather than being about fair punishment for what Sasuke had done.

    I'm not saying death is unjust punishment for him based on the things he's done, just that those who wanted him dead for personal reasons are not the appropriate people to be making that decision nor the ones fit to enforce it.

    Therein is the difference between justice and revenge. Revenge is personal. Justice is not.
    lol if that is the case then the court should not involve the victim at all

    Revenge and Justice go side by side and you want to even go to the word avenge then become an avenger like sasuke.

    Justice is just somewhat been written and accepted as the truth which humans cling on for survival in this harsh environment.
    Last edited by elitefox; July 15, 2010 at 04:22 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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    Re: Justice and Revenge

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    None of the villages are devoid of a personal grudge against Sasuke except possibly Iwa.
    Umm, what? The only village with a personal grudge against Sasuke is Kumo. None of the other ones have anything against him other than that Raikage wants him (or wanted him, who knows if he even cares anymore now that he got his brother back).

  7. #22
    MH's Best Reviewer 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Jammin's Avatar
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    Re: Justice and Revenge

    Quote Originally Posted by elitefox
    lol if that is the case then the court should not involve the victim at all

    Revenge and Justice go side by side and you want to even go to the word avenge then become an avenger like sasuke.

    Justice is just somewhat been written and accepted as the truth which humans cling on for survival in this harsh environment.
    Justice and revenge do NOT necessarily go side by side. Justice is about gauging an appropriate punishment for an offense. The reason a victim is brought into court is not so they can select the punishment they would prefer it's so the offenders guilt and the nature of the damage the offense committed caused can be properly understood. The actual punishment is selected by the judge whose job it is to be an impartial 3rd party.

    Have you ever seen the statue of a blind lady holding scales and a sword at a courthouse? That's actually a statue of "Justitia" the roman goddess of justice who is the personification of the ideal of what is considered modern justice.
    • Her blindfold represents her absolute impartiality.
    • Her sword(double edged) represents the power of reason. The double edge represents it's ability to cut toward both guilt and innocence.
    • Her scales represent the fair weighing of evidence presenting for and against an accused party as well as fairly weighing out punishments based on the offenses committed.

    ------------

    Revenge, being about self satisfaction, is rarely just. Take Sasuke for example, what he might consider justice on Konoha is colored by his personal hatred and pain. So the punishment that he would chooses goes far beyond anything that could be considered justice.

    What Sasuke does is about him and what he feels, not about what's right and fair. That is the clear distinction between Revenge and Justice. Revenge is personal, Justice is not.
    Last edited by Jammin; July 15, 2010 at 03:52 PM.
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  8. #23
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    Re: Justice and Revenge

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Executor View Post
    Umm, what? The only village with a personal grudge against Sasuke is Kumo. None of the other ones have anything against him other than that Raikage wants him (or wanted him, who knows if he even cares anymore now that he got his brother back).
    Konoha's grudge against Sasuke is because he abandoned them and join their greatest enemy, Suna is the same since they are Konoha's allies plus the assault on them by Akatsuki, Kiri has a grudge against all Uchihas for what happen to their Mizukage, and Kumo had the incident with Kirabi. Iwa is the only village that doesn't have anything personal against Sasuke.

  9. #24
    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity elitefox's Avatar
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    Re: Justice and Revenge

    Quote Originally Posted by Jammin View Post
    Justice and revenge do NOT necessarily go side by side. Justice is about gauging an appropriate punishment for an offense. The reason a victim is brought into court is not so they can select the punishment they would prefer it's so the offenders guilt and the nature of the damage the offense committed caused can be properly understood. The actual punishment is selected by the judge whose job it is to be an impartial 3rd party.

    Have you ever seen the statue of a blind lady holding scales and a sword at a courthouse? That's actually a statue of "Justitia" the roman goddess of justice who is the personification of the ideal of what is considered modern justice.
    • Her blindfold represents her absolute impartiality.
    • Her sword(double edged) represents the power of reason. The double edge represents it's ability to cut toward both guilt and innocence.
    • Her scales represent the fair weighing of evidence presenting for and against an accused party as well as fairly weighing out punishments based on the offenses committed.

    ------------

    Revenge, being about self satisfaction, is rarely just. Take Sasuke for example, what he might consider justice on Konoha is colored by his personal hatred and pain. So the punishment that he would chooses goes far beyond anything that could be considered justice.

    What Sasuke does is about him and what he feels, not about what's right and fair. That is the clear distinction between Revenge and Justice. Revenge is personal, Justice is not.
    I think you misunderstood what I said about

    revenge and justice goes side by side.

    I was talking to that feeling of... What do you feel when you finally get rid of who is the person that hurt you? or the thing that hurt you.
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  10. #25
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    Re: Justice and Revenge

    Quote Originally Posted by elitefox
    I think you misunderstood what I said about

    revenge and justice goes side by side.

    I was talking to that feeling of... What do you feel when you finally get rid of who is the person that hurt you? or the thing that hurt you.
    Satisfaction.

    Which is not a part of Justice. It's a part of revenge. Often times when it comes to justice the wronged party doesn't feel satisfied with the punishment but that doesn't matter. Because justice is about what is fair and warranted, not about providing a feeling of satisfaction.

    I strongly suspect if a person who wronged me is hurt more than they deserve for what they did i would still feel satisfaction. Yet that would be just as unjust as them being not punished at all.

    So my point is all to often Justice and Revenge are at odds with one another.
    Last edited by Jammin; July 15, 2010 at 08:19 PM.
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    Re: Justice and Revenge

    It just maybe you cannot have justice without revenge even a little.


    Naruto gave up justice for peace. He befriended Pain and Konan.
    That is peace.
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    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted zerocooldx's Avatar
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    Re: Justice and Revenge

    Justice and revenge are separated by nothing more then popular opinion. Justice belongs to the majority, while revenge is left to the minority. Things that were once seen as justice are now seen as acts of revenge, and even vice versa.

    "Upon the back of his body not a wound of retreat scars it."
    One Piece is a series created by a genius, it's a masterpiece, it's like a fine wine, it only gets better with time.

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    Re: Justice and Revenge

    Every. Single. Person. out there thinks his way of thinking is the right way. If a person thinks he's wrong, it's an automatic reaction to correct itself.

    Everything everybody does is because they think it's the right thing to do. If it's not according to the society, then it's up to others to correct the wrong train of thoughts.

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    Re: Justice and Revenge

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Konoha's grudge against Sasuke is because he abandoned them and join their greatest enemy,
    Except nobody in konoha apart from danzou seemed to care, and danzou was a traitor who let the village get destroyed so he could become hokage. He's hardly konoha.

    Quote Quote:
    Suna is the same since they are Konoha's allies
    Suna did a lot worse to konoha than sasuke did, and if konoha doesn't care, why would suna?

    Quote Quote:
    plus the assault on them by Akatsuki,
    Gaara was willing to forgive Sasuke. why would he hold a grudge against him when he didn't even have anything to do with akatsuki at the time?

    Quote Quote:
    Kiri has a grudge against all Uchihas for what happen to their Mizukage,
    Mizukage has a grudge against akatsuki in general but it's not a personal grudge against sasuke who had nothing to do with it.

    Quote Quote:
    Iwa is the only village that doesn't have anything personal against Sasuke.
    akatsuki took 2 of their jinchuuriki so if suna/kiri has a grudge, i don't see why iwa wouldn't. Of course, suna/kiri don't have a personal grudge against sasuke either. At best they all have a generic grudge against sasuke for joining akatsuki, but apart from kumo none of it is personal.

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    Re: Justice and Revenge

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Executor View Post
    Except nobody in konoha apart from danzou seemed to care, and danzou was a traitor who let the village get destroyed so he could become hokage. He's hardly konoha.
    Konoha did care, They were just willing to let Naruto handle it when Sasuke wasn't a danger to anyone. Sasuke wasn't doing much harm before joining Akatsuki, So there wasn't a great need to deal with him. But once Sasuke joined Akatsuki and started attacking other ninjas, He became too much of a threat to let Naruto have his way. They wanted to deal with Sasuke themselves to avoid war with Kumo, And had decided regardless of how Naruto and Sakura felt that Sasuke had to be killed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Executor View Post
    Suna did a lot worse to konoha than sasuke did, and if konoha doesn't care, why would suna?
    Like I stated above, Konoha did care, So Suna cares also. And Suna payed for their actions of attacking Konoha.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Executor View Post
    Gaara was willing to forgive Sasuke. why would he hold a grudge against him when he didn't even have anything to do with akatsuki at the time?
    Gaara was willing to give Sasuke a chance because of Naruto, But he was going to kill him because it was his duty. The only reason he failed was because Sasuke had Susanoo. Gaara even told Naruto that Sasuke had to die.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Executor View Post
    Mizukage has a grudge against akatsuki in general but it's not a personal grudge against sasuke who had nothing to do with it.
    Mei had a grudge against the Uchihas because it was through the Sharingan that Yagura was controlled and Kiri suffered so much under his rule during the "bloody mist" era.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Executor View Post
    akatsuki took 2 of their jinchuuriki so if suna/kiri has a grudge, i don't see why iwa wouldn't. Of course, suna/kiri don't have a personal grudge against sasuke either. At best they all have a generic grudge against sasuke for joining akatsuki, but apart from kumo none of it is personal.
    That's questionable. Roshi wasn't even apart of the village and Han appears to have been one of the Jinchuuriki freely given over to Akatsuki. Not only that, but Iwa was also employing Akatsuki for missions.

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