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Thread: Teresa vs. Priscilla - Who is stronger?

  1. #16
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member PB|Ichigo's Avatar
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    Re: Theresa vs. Priscilla - Who is stronger?

    Oh please stop these powercharts, this ain't Dragon Ball, although CM is a shounen, too. But these charts are merely speculative, and doesn't really represent anything.

    In terms of power I'm actually in favor of Teresa (cause I may be a bit of a Teresa-Fanboy :-)), but it doesn't really matter as Teresa's dead now, if you let the matter of her flesh taken into Clare out of the game. Clare (i.e. a part of her) is the only thing which is left of Teresa, and that Teresa (or some part of her will/legacy/whatever you may call it) is still somewhere inside Clare (as shown before the fight with the male AB), but other than that, Teresa is dead, so any discussion regarding this matter is more or less redundant.

  2. #17
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member HegemonKhan's Avatar
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    Re: Theresa vs. Priscilla - Who is stronger?

    did you read these two lines within my other post which you responded to?

    1. "here's a mathematical look at how I understand yoki and power levels in Claymore:" -HK
    2. "here's some examples (the amounts are entirely made up):" -HK


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    this is not pointless,

    Teresa is a LEGEND.

    if you take a look at sports fans, they are constantly debating/arguing/comparing the old LEGENDARY/HALL OF FAME players vs the new current generation of sports athletes.

    who's better?

    Micheal Jordan or Kobe Bryant? (basket ball)

    Walter Payton or Jerome bettis? (american football)

    Ty Cobbs/Mickey mantle (i'm embarrasing myself here as i can't remember/don't know who was the last home run king) or STEROID CHEATED/FRAUDS Mark Mcguire/Sammy Sosa (yah, you might noticed i'm strongly biased here. having been an "very small scale or unimpressive" athlete most of my life. As a former athlete i can't stand these steriod-using CHEATERS/FRAUDS). (baseball)

    Jack Nickolas or Tiger Woods? (golf)

    Pale' vs Ronaldo (american soccer/world futbol)

    macynire(?) vs pete sampras. (i don't follow Tennis much)

    etc...

    FANS LOVE TO DEBATE OLD LEGENDS VS THE CURRENT GENERATION

    TERESA THE LEGEND VS THE NEWCOMER PRISCILLA.

    this is quite a prevalent human behavior and interest.
    Last edited by HegemonKhan; February 05, 2010 at 06:30 AM.

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  4. #18
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Goral's Avatar
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    Re: Theresa vs. Priscilla - Who is stronger?

    Quote Originally Posted by kaliayev View Post
    (...)
    1) Her status as the former number one does not automatically make her abyssal class. Think about all the generations of claymores that have likely existed. The idea of there being only three abyssal ones if every number one has the potential to be abyssal class beings is absurd. (...)
    That's all fine and all but you're forgetting one thing. If we were to believe what Miria said MiB came to the island about a century ago (and rather less than more since they probably did some experiments on the continent first and then relocated to the island). During these 100 years Isley, Riful, Luciella, (Rosemary), Teresa, Priscilla, Alicia, Miata were or would be #1's. Including Rosemary every #1 would have averagely 12,5 years of "bossing" (that's a long time but since #1 were the most powerful warriors they would need the most time to overuse their youma powers) but that's only assuming that every generation would have #1. That's an assumption I would not make since we know that the organization preferred to not nominate a warrior for #1 spot if he didn't deserve it. The fact we don't see many abyssals only means that during 100 years only few warriors were powerful enough to become one. It's very probable also that after Riful's rebellion the org decided to not make another uncontrollable potential abyssal one and thus they came up with the idea of soul-link. There may have been a huge time gap between Riful becoming #1 and another warrior becoming #1.

    Let me elaborate the argument where I say that MiB are cautious when giving numbers. Every #1 we've seen so far was extremely powerful and the gap between #1 and the rest of the top 5 was really big, why then Rosemary would be an exception? Number 1 symbolizes organizations power and pride, powerful #1 raises morale in the "ranks". If they started to give #1-5 to claymores slightly above the average there could be commotion, "why it wasn't me" and that sort of problems, maybe even fights. We've never seen they gave a high number to someone who didn't deserve it, so why think they would change it ? They could give as well specific number to more than one warrior.
    In all cases that we know of, not even once MiB gave #1 to someone that didn't deserve it. Also it doesn't look to me that the Org wanted to have every number staffed with a claymore, no matter how weak he would be. If someone doesn't deserve high number then they prefer to not give it to that someone (give me an example of such warrior if you think I'm wrong). For example, when numbers 2-5 were sent to kill Teresa (who lost her number the moment she left the Org), Priscilla didn't receive #1 and Irene didn't retain #2 position (Priscilla although stronger than Irene who was worthy of #2 wasn't #1). Why ? Because Priscilla had the potential to be number 1 but wasn't worthy of it yet. Miata - very strong Claymore who could have the top position is only #4. Raphaela definitely worthy of #3 was #5 and Clare was #47 even though she did better in the fight with male AB than Helen and Deneve (and I would even go as far as to say that she did better than Miria).
    My point is, they rather demote strong warriors than promote weaklings because they have lack of good staff. What would be the purpose of giving the highest number to someone who would lose it the next time trainees would graduate?
    Even if they were short-handed why would they make some average single digit warrior as #1? Would they even need ranking at the time when they would be in a crisis (Riful's and Luciella's incidents)?

    Rosemary must have been extremely strong since Orsay was concerned and uneasy. He was emphasising the fact she would be fighting former #1 and didn't think that even she could defeat awakened former #1 even though he considered her as "the strongest monster". Teresa's task was however to kill defenceless warrior and anyone could do it. That tells us that Rosemary wasn't a small fry, it doesn't tell us she was of abyssal class but she was definitely at least close to it. And since we know that Rosemary was #1 until Teresa appeared that would mean Irene - one of the strongest warriors that ever existed - was nothing compared to Rosemary and wasn't even considered as contender for #1 spot (unless Irene appeared after Teresa but judging by the fact she fought with her before I doubt it).

    You're making the same mistake again. Just because we haven't seen more abyssals you're jumping to conclusion that not every #1 would be of abyssal level while we don't know whether there always was #1.

    Quote Quote:
    The rank of number one only means that the described warrior is the best of her generation.
    That's just your assumption. The fact we don't know number ones other than Isley, Riful, Luciella, Rosemary, Teresa and Alicia doesn't mean that there were other number ones. A warrior with #2 could also be the best of his generation. Priscilla was #2 and she wasn't given #1 even after Teresa deserted the organization. Teresa didn't become former #1 and Priscilla didn't become #1.

    Quote Quote:
    Raphaela encountered Therese shortly after the Luciela incident.
    It depends on your definition of "shortly" in this case. We do not know how much time passed between Luciela incident and Rosemary's execution. It would be only few years if we assumed that: Teresa would not be able to detect completely cloaked Rafaela (and we don't know how much time exactly does it take to erase youki presence and for example does the power of warrior has anything to do with that, i.e. would Yuma become a ghost earlier than Miria, and Miria earlier than Rafaela?) and that there was always #1. You don't consider a possibility that there might have been enough of a time gap between Luciella incident and Teresa becoming #1 for Rosemary to be a boss too. Don't forget that Teresa was special and even if Riful was #1 instead of Rosemary she would be demoted too. The only warrior that could be considered stronger by organization was Priscilla (but we know that they didn't know sh*t about her power and never had a chance to see her releasing youki).

    Quote Quote:
    Now that Alicia and Beth are gone, Audrey is the de facto number one. Do you think that she is abyssal class?Had Isley never existed Rigardo would have been the number one of his generation. Does that magically make Rigardo abyssal class? While Raphaela was the only abyssal class claymore around when the org was training Alicia and Beth, she was ranked number five. Being number one is relative, and only true number ones deserve to be classified as abyssal class.
    As I've written earlier organization doesn't give numbers for nothing and they rather demote they warriors than give a promotion (e.g. Rafaela, even though it was special case it supports my argument).

    There is also another argument I have to add. What would be the point of writing this extra scene if not for showing the awesomness and Teresa's true power? I mean, do you think that Yagi wanted to show us that Rosemary was weak or that Teresa was strong? And there is another thing :
    Quote Originally Posted by chibamonster from animesuki
    Teresa's very character is, "I don't lie. I don't have to." And she never lies at any point EXCEPT IN THIS CASE! What would bring her to do that?
    Teresa AFAWK lied only once, after the fight with Rosemary. But why would she do that? She knew that she was considered as "the strongest warrior ever", a monster. So if Rosemary was only a very strong awakened being why would she lie that she defeated such a warrior? Ophelia defeated single-handedly a single digit awakened being, one would think that the strongest #1 ever would be able to defeat the strongest non-abyssal awakened being, don't you think?

    While your first argument is very good and valid (and if I weren't Teresa's fanboy I might have been convinced ) the second one is unconvincing and written forcefully. Since Teresa was stronger than Rosemary it's no surprise she would be demoted but like I said, the same thing would happen if Riful was #1 then, or Isley, or Luciella. Teresa was just too strong and even Priscilla wasn't strong enough (yet) for the organization to swap Teresa's and Priscilla's numbers (even though Irene needed only one look to know that she could never match Priscilla).
    And just because there wasn't a duel it doesn't mean the org didn't consider Rosemary as "true number one". It just means they were confident that it would be a waste of "resources" and that Teresa could deal with Rosemary if necessary (assuming she would be unawakened). Notice however that Orsay was very uneasy when Teresa was going to execute Rosemary and afraid that Rosemary would awaken.

    P.S.
    I agree that discussing who's stronger is pointless but somehow that discussion never tires me .
    Kaliayev, I will have the time to respond you probably no earlier than Tuesday but I probably will.
    Last edited by Goral; February 05, 2010 at 08:26 AM.

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  6. #19
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    Re: Theresa vs. Priscilla - Who is stronger?

    Does anyone else think Galatea should be considered as a rank 1 (power-wise of course) because she bested Miata (well she probably would have bested Miata but she was not only focusing on Miata but Agatha too), who a black cloak (can't remember which one) said would be a number one or number one level if her emotional state was more stable and Galatea had the greatest power increase when releasing her Yoma energy. Also she is a defensive warrior and while this does make her attacks weaker they are already really strong and it can be assumed she has very powerful healing abilities because she is defensive as well as her Yoki manipulation powers which we have seen increase healing.

  7. #20
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member kaliayev's Avatar
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    Re: Theresa vs. Priscilla - Who is stronger?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goral View Post
    So because Teresa said: "I usually don't do this a lot but I feel if I don't at least once in a while... I'll forget how to." and because we've never seen her release more than 10% of youki you're concluding that she can't release more than 30% of youki? That's completely baseless although an interesting thought for discussion. We've never seen a claymore that couldn't awaken, in fact we've seen tons of them that could awaken really easily (with Clare being no exception). That's because the more claymore uses his youma powers the closer he gets to being a youma - that's a fact. Also, the weaker the claymore (i.e. the less youki he has and of worse quality) the faster he reaches the point where he awakens once he releases youki again. Teresa was both strong and "economical" so in her case to awaken because of overuse of youma powers would take a long, long time.

    As for the words she said to Rosemary, she only states that she doesn't do this a lot so if anything she would not remember how to do it and it would be a matter of mentality rather than not being able to do it at all (but it would be stupid). You're trying to forcefully find a way for Teresa to be weaker than awakened Priscilla because you can't accept that anyone could be as strong as Teresa seems to be. The second argument you used makes even less sense than the first. Because we've never seen Teresa go over 30% she can't go over 30%, lol. Going by your line of thought we could also say that because we haven't seen Yuma go over her limit she can't awaken either.

    Overkill would be utterly stupid in Teresa's case. She would have to use lots of youki and come closer to awakening (and we know that she wanted to spend her days with Clare as a daughter not a piece of meat) and it would be a waste of effort since the outcome of the fight would be the same. For the same reason Priscilla didn't take her awakened form when she was fighting Alicia/Beth/Riful. That would be unnecessary and a waste of energy and since she was very hungry and there weren't much food in vicinity it would be stupid of her to do it. But does anyone say that she can't awaken? Yeah, we've seen her awakened form but it was 7 years ago, maybe she forgot how to change like Teresa? lol
    In addition, Teresa's own words indicate that she knows a bit about her limits: "We all learn the limits of our youma power as we fight, releasing it bit by bit. That's beyond a beginner like you." Although I doubt she ever went beyond 50% (since she knew that after she reached that point she would be dangerously close to the point of no return and I don't see her as a psychopath that would do sth so dangerous just to amuse herself).

    In case you would like to bring Clare's case into this: don't. Clare's case is completely different because she has partially awakened and different rules apply to her. Besides, it's not that she can't awaken (it's very probable that we will see her awakened form and she will go back to her human form thanks to soul-link), she doesn't want to (subconsciously). Either Teresa's/Rafaela's memories made her aware of the mistake she's making at the moment or her rebellious character refuses to obey the monster insde her. She's fought it many times and always won and now the youma inside her doesn't stand a chance. So unless she completely subjects herself to monster's will she won't awaken.
    That's of course only speculation on my part (and the idea about becoming immune to the youma wasn't mine but Cyclone's and Aimless' from animesuki) but the fact remains that Clare is half-awakened (according to Miria already awakened) and Teresa was not. Soon enough we will know whether Clare can't awaken or not and what was the cause of her deawakening.

    Last but not least, awakenings are like bankais in Bleach, they're the part of this world and make Claymore more interesting. If any claymore could not awaken that would be against the rules Yagi has established and it would be incoherent. Since we haven't seen any claymore that can't awaken (although Clare couldn't in 100th chapter she could at the beginning of the manga and in Pieta and she could muster a lot more than 30% of youki since she was in queen of blades mode) so saying that Teresa couldn't is like saying that Cynthia/Yuma/Tabitha can't either. Your argument is no argument but a completely baseless speculation.
    My theory may be an example of inductive reasoning, thereby having natural weaknesses, but that hardly makes it baseless. Here is the information we have: 1) In the narrative, Theresa never went beyond her 10% release (or if you prefer, never went to 30%); 2) Theresa made a statement about her abilities when fighting Rosemary. Now then, inductively concluding that Theresa's personal limit was 10% release (or if you prefer, below 30%) is not a grandiose leap.

    Please, if you can find an example of a claymore's awakening being a purely rational decision on the claymore's part, provide it. In my mental review of the awakenings, they have been a result of the claymore losing control of the body through passionate disregard for their personal limit in a single battle, a "gradual" defense mechanism (i.e. what happened to Jean), or the claymore losing control of the body through routine, high-level releases (we know that the partially awakened are in no danger of the last). The last typically occurs with lower level claymores as they have to compensate for their relative weakness through high-level releases. The first is more characteristic of the strongest claymores we've seen awakening (Priscilla, Ophelia, Clare, etc).

    Eh, I don't know why you're talking about the awakened Priscilla fighting in human form, especially when you would subsequently tell me not to use Clare as evidence because she is "special" (the fact of the matter is, Clare is closer to being a claymore than Priscilla is). Priscilla's a fully awakened being. As such, she can nigh fully access her potential at any moment. How much of this potential she accesses is ultimately her choice because she has nigh full access to it. Theresa was a claymore, and claymores do not have this luxury. That is why their awakened forms are significantly more powerful than their claymore forms, though, for reasons I noted in an earlier post, I imagine that this wouldn't be the case with Theresa.

    Yes, because an argument about Clare's subconscious is infinitely more valid than one that tries to examine her current personal limits.

    Finally, I will have you note that I am examining personal limits. As I have repeatedly brought up in my posts, this is not a matter of what is possible, but what is likely. That is, it is possible for Theresa (or any other claymore) to go to 30%/beyond, but it was unlikely that Theresa would go berserk and thus satisfy the conditions for her to release to 30%/beyond. Similarly, it is possible that Clare will fully awaken (we damn near witnessed this in Pieta), but it is unlikely when we compare her current mental state with her mental state when Rigardo was eliminating the buffer force.

    @Hegemon
    0. Thanks for the clarification.

    1. Exactly, but their potentials cannot be defined, or even estimated. That is why I am trying to avoid a discussion about potential, because nothing can be concluded about the potentials of Priscilla and Theresa unless Yagi had the two of them fight as awakened beings. This didn't and will not happen. Instead, we can only determine who, at a given moment, is the stronger of the two. Before Priscilla awakened, Theresa was stronger. After Priscilla awakened, Priscilla was stronger.


    Ichigo already responded to your "math" (we're ultimately looking at undefined variables and your arbitrary assignment of numbers to those variables so it is rather pointless), so I won't.


    @Goral

    If you accuse me of temporal error, I'll do the same . Just as we don't know the amount of time between Rosemary's occupying rank one and the Luciela incident, we don't know if Irena's time as a single-digit claymore overlapped with Rosemary's. Promotions and demotions are somewhat common. Someone other than Irena could have been occupying rank three when Rosemary awakened, while Irena could have still been in the 10-30 ranks. Regardless, we have more to work with in regards to Rosemary's rank being a result of the Luciela incident than the idea that Irena was rank three when Rosemary awakened. That is, we have another purge in Clare's generation, which results in a lot of open posts for Clarice's generation, and a decent knowledge of the aftermath. A number of the claymores in Clarice's generation are powerful in their own right, but their ranks are partly a result of vacant posts. Would you consider Audrey, the current number three, as strong as Galatea, who filled the position before Audrey? Same applies to the rest of Clarice's generation in terms of Ophelia, Miria, Raphaela, and all the other ranks that were left vacant. Keep in mind that these posts are pretty much all filled by the claymores of Clarice's generation over the course of seven years. Now then, my reserving seven years for the time in between the Luciela incident and the time that Theresa and Raphaela met is rather generous (after the Luciela incident, the org seemed very eager to find twins. This would easily take them less than seven years. Some time would have passed between Raphaela's learning that twins had been recruited and the meeting with Theresa, but the twins issue was still fresh in her mind when the latter occurred). Due to vacancies/losses, the ranks one and two, who had probably reached their peaks while Luciela and Raphaela were training/occupying ranks one and two, that succeeded Luciela and Raphaela would naturally not be abyssal class and would be considerably weaker than the former ranks one and two. However, they would likely hold these positions until Theresa began her ascent.


    We know that Isley, Duff, and Rigardo engaged in routine bouts, in order to test one another, while they were occupying ranks one through three. The same would have occurred when Theresa, Irena, and those other two were occupying ranks one through four. If Rosemary was at her peak, which is likely the case given her rash reaction to her demotion, any claymore, who was weaker but had not reached her peak at the time, would have eventually challenged Rosemary for subsequent ranks (2 down to 3 down to 4. She would have been especially pleased after such events). Meanwhile, Rosemary chose to awaken immediately after losing her rank, making it impossible for any future claymore, such as Irena, to challenge her for the rank two position. When Irena talks about her fights with Theresa, she conveniently fails to mention anything about Rosemary (yay, for extra scenes that are somewhat inconsistent with past events). Rosemary was simply a claymore created for the sole purpose of an extra scene, which greatly discounts her relevance to the ranks of individuals who were chronologically around after her death.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goral View Post
    Notice however that Orsay was very uneasy when Teresa was going to execute Rosemary and afraid that Rosemary would awaken.
    He was uneasy because any single-digit awakening can result in substantial losses for the org. If they don't have a warrior/group of warriors that can cope with a very powerful awakened being and this awakened being decides to actively antagonize the org, the org is kinda screwed. At the time, they simply didn't think Theresa was capable of taking on Rosemary's awakened form. Again, as we both agree, this is indicative of how much the org underestimated Theresa's strength.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goral View Post
    That's all fine and all but you're forgetting one thing. If we were to believe what Miria said MiB came to the island about a century ago (and rather less than more since they probably did some experiments on the continent first and then relocated to the island). During these 100 years Isley, Riful, Luciella, (Rosemary), Teresa, Priscilla, Alicia, Miata were or would be #1's. Including Rosemary every #1 would have averagely 12,5 years of "bossing" (that's a long time but since #1 were the most powerful warriors they would need the most time to overuse their youma powers) but that's only assuming that every generation would have #1. That's an assumption I would not make since we know that the organization preferred to not nominate a warrior for #1 spot if he didn't deserve it. The fact we don't see many abyssals only means that during 100 years only few warriors were powerful enough to become one. It's very probable also that after Riful's rebellion the org decided to not make another uncontrollable potential abyssal one and thus they came up with the idea of soul-link. There may have been a huge time gap between Riful becoming #1 and another warrior becoming #1.

    You're making the same mistake again. Just because we haven't seen more abyssals you're jumping to conclusion that not every #1 would be of abyssal level while we don't know whether there always was #1.
    Now, we both know that Miria's main continent theory and the manga's narrative are inconsistent (there's a thread for this, so using your speculation on this as evidence for an argument about a somewhat unrelated matter is suspect). Given the temporal length of generations we've seen thus far, 100 years simply doesn't make sense. Regardless, the range of generations is six, with six being the number of specifically "named" generations, to x, with x being an unknown number. While I see the arbitrary rankings game isn't enough to persuade you, you're playing a similar game with arbitrary # of generations and a reliance on the org's ultimately poor judgment. Very well, I will have to rely on something else.

    Let's review the known abyssal class warriors (I'm going to ignore Clare and Clarice's generation in this list because they aren't particularly relevant to Rosemary's status): Isley, Riful, Luciela, Theresa, Raphaela, and Priscilla. There's an interesting characteristic that they all, except for claymore Priscilla (awakened Priscilla now does), display: the ability to "properly gauge" the individuals they encounter. Isley had an idea of Priscilla's power after he fired his warning shots and immediately went on the offensive, hoping to catch her off-guard, because of her power. To an extent, this worked. He destroyed parts of her body, but that wasn't enough. While he could know that she was stronger than he was, he wouldn't have known about her limitless youki. Shortly after he realized that he would lose and that she did not necessarily have an intent to kill him, he conceded. When Riful first saw Priscilla, the former could tell that she could not match the latter. Riful left without a confrontation. When Raphaela saw Theresa, she could tell her potential was beyond abyssal class. I'm sure you get the picture. Did we see this level of assessment on Rosemary's part? No, even after encountering Theresa, we get a scene that illustrates her ignorance. Rosemary was not displaying the insight that one expects of an abyssal class ab. She did not realize Theresa's strength until she was practically dead.


    This isn't the only characteristic abyssal class abs share. There is another: nigh ideal specializations for fighting others, be they awakened beings or claymores. Isley had his adaptable weapons and lock-on arrows. Luciela could eat anything that got close to her. The structure/weakness of Riful's body is indiscernable and she can strike out extensively in all directions. Priscilla's limitless youki allows her to spew youki out from any part of her body, meaning that you pretty much need to destroy every part of her to win. That is not to say that other awakened beings don't have interesting and useful specializations (i.e. Duff's rods), but we can tell that they hardly compare to the specializations of the abyssal class. Now, let's look back at Rosemary. Did we see an abyssal class specialization from her? She had a nifty tail, a few extra heads, and was strong for an awakened being. Does that compare favorably to what we've seen from abyssal class abs?


    Quote Originally Posted by Goral View Post
    There is also another argument I have to add. What would be the point of writing this extra scene if not for showing the awesomness and Teresa's true power? I mean, do you think that Yagi wanted to show us that Rosemary was weak or that Teresa was strong?
    Hmmm, why did Yagi create the extra scenes? Over the course of the manga, Yagi had barely touched upon issues that seemed rather important at the time. As he got further and further into the manga and refined his thoughts and characters, he would begin to regret not pursuing said issues when they were "relevant." We see this in all of the extra scenes: 1) is a fight between Theresa and a strong ab; 2) deals with the implied past between Ophelia and Miria, and why Miria despised Ophelia as much as she did; 3) examines the fight between Isley and Priscilla. Riful told us that this fight occurred and we eventually discovered that Priscilla was stronger than an abyssal one, but we didn't know how Isley and Priscilla formed their relationship; 4) deals with a relatively minor issue, but it exposes us to Clare's training days.

    Obviously, the one most relevant to this discussion is the first extra scene. However, we need to contextualize it. When Yagi introduced, and quickly killed off, Theresa, he had barely touched upon the issue of abs. This is reflected by the fact that the only entities we ever saw Theresa fight were claymores, basic yoma, and humans. Yagi hadn't incorporated a fight against what would become one of the central entities of the manga. However, early in the manga, there were ultimately two paths he could have chosen: explore the awakened beings before introducing Theresa or introduce Theresa ASAP in order to establish the parallels between the relationships of TheresaxClare and ClarexRaki at a relevant time. We know he chose the latter, and those parallels, along with the Priscilla and Theresa duel, were the primary concerns of Theresa of the Faint Smile and Marked for Death. Because we had never seen an ab before, Yagi couldn't really construct a fight between Theresa and a powerful ab. This was somewhat of a failure on his part because we eventually discovered numerous abs who were incredibly powerful, and whose increasingly dominant existence would force us to question the quality of Theresa's generation. Yagi's solution to this was to create the first extra scene, which dealt with the kind of fight that he had neglected early in the manga.

    While this extra scene reminded us of Theresa's primacy, while she was alive, it also gave us what we had always wanted: a fight between Theresa and an awakened being. Theresa was powerful, and she had to have been involved in numberous fights against powerful abs. To entertain us, Yagi would have to "unnaturally" insert the number one that preceded Theresa into the narrative. However, while Rosemary was strong and Theresa could probably hold her own against an abyssal one, we have little evidence that Rosemary was abyssal class. Her existence in canon was limited to a single, extra scene. We cannot treat her as we do well-established characters, let alone well-established rumors. As such, she is not the equivalent of an abyssal one, a classification of beings we've known about since the conclusion of Purgatory. She was simply a powerful ab who was contained within a single chapter.

    While you make the argument that the extra scene was in there to illustrate Theresa's strength before her death, you fail to apply this same understanding to the awakened Priscilla. After Priscilla's extra scene, we knew that she was stronger than an abyssal one. To a degree, the extra scenes put Theresa and Priscilla on somewhat equal footing. That is, we know that Priscilla could overwhelm an abyssal one and strongly believe that Theresa could do the same. But now, with recent chapters, Yagi is going far beyond Priscilla's extra scene. She obliterated two abyssal class abs, killed a weakened Riful, and handily put Clare in her place. Priscilla's strength has gone beyond the strength that Theresa exhibited in the first extra scene.

    Also, dunno why you included that quote from animesuki.

    Quote Originally Posted by White Silver King View Post
    Does anyone else think Galatea should be considered as a rank 1 (power-wise of course) because she bested Miata (well she probably would have bested Miata but she was not only focusing on Miata but Agatha too), who a black cloak (can't remember which one) said would be a number one or number one level if her emotional state was more stable and Galatea had the greatest power increase when releasing her Yoma energy. Also she is a defensive warrior and while this does make her attacks weaker they are already really strong and it can be assumed she has very powerful healing abilities because she is defensive as well as her Yoki manipulation powers which we have seen increase healing.
    Galatea is a little tricky. While I think she probably is abyssal class, there's a decent amount of surface evidence in favor of and against this position. Perhaps you should make a thread...


    p.s. I feel like we should allow some others to make some points, provided they have both an interest and can produce detailed arguments.
    Hello, Dave. Is that you, Dave?

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member HegemonKhan's Avatar
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    Re: Theresa vs. Priscilla - Who is stronger?

    ********************************************************************
    If anyone is interested in this incredibly long post, I'd suggest just picking a (or a few) segment/section of it, and only respondng to that single or few segments/sections that interest you. as this entire post is bookishly long, laughs
    *******************************************************************

    Quote Originally Posted by White Silver King View Post
    Does anyone else think Galatea should be considered as a rank 1 (power-wise of course) because she bested Miata (well she probably would have bested Miata but she was not only focusing on Miata but Agatha too), who a black cloak (can't remember which one) said would be a number one or number one level if her emotional state was more stable and Galatea had the greatest power increase when releasing her Yoma energy. Also she is a defensive warrior and while this does make her attacks weaker they are already really strong and it can be assumed she has very powerful healing abilities because she is defensive as well as her Yoki manipulation powers which we have seen increase healing.

    Actually, it's Miata whom bested Galatea.

    1. FIRST, and foremost, Galatea herself states that, she is too weak to kill Agatha, which is why she released her yoki, hoping she would be found by powerful warriors, and possibly at the sacrifice of her life for Rabona and its human inhabitants' sake, they would also kill Agatha for her.

    2. At first, Galatea is disappointed, with whom the Organization sent, she was pridefully expecting "better" warriors to be sent to kill her lol, but she felt that the Organization must be hurting on "man power" (err woman power) and thus could only send these "two" (Clarice and Miata).

    3. Weak and novice Clarice certainly was cause for concern. However, Galatea did soon recognize Miata's power, however, she also noticed Miata was young and very inexperienced (a novice) too.

    4. At, first veteran-experienced Galatea dominated instinctual but inexperience/novice Miata. Galatea surprised Miata by using her unique yoki ability to enhance her power, and sent Miata flying through a building.

    5. HOWEVER, after this, Galatea no longer bested Miata. Miata got angry/relesaed yoki/or got scolded my Clarice, and "turned it up". rank 1 Miata was suddenly too powerful for poor rank 3 Galatea. Miata moved so fast, that Galatea couldn't get out of the way as Miata sliced off her arm.

    6. Miata was now fully dominating/superior to Galatea, HOWEVER, Agatha hasn't been idling around watching them fight.

    7. Agatha herself realized that it was Miata whom was the threat, NOT Galatea. Miata was superior to Galatea. It was Miata whom Agatha had to worry about, NOT Galatea. And so, unknown to inexperienced Miata, whom was 100% focusing on Galatea, and foolishly ignoring Agatha, allowed wise rank 2 Agatha, to gradually build up her attack on Miata so that Miata (or Galatea or Clarice) wouldn't realize it until it was too late, which it was. (wonders if the rain, was Agatha's attack. hmm)

    I firmly believe that if Miata had targetted Agatha, and not Galatea, Agatha would have been dead in mere minutes. But, by targetting Galatea, it allowed Agatha to slowly/gradually, slice Miata into pieces.

    *Galatea herself said that Agatha was more powerul then her. she couldn't kill Agatha.
    *Agatha knew it was Miata whom could kill her, NOT Galatea, and that's why Agatha focused on Miata.
    *Thus, I conclude that Miata is superior to Galatea in terms of whom's better, whom would win.
    *We do see Miata at the end over-powering Galatea, but then it is interupted by Miata falling apart from Agatha's cunning gradual attack upon her.
    * Galatea < Agatha < Miata

    8. finally Galatea realizes what Agatha has been doing to Miata and shouts to Clarice to tell Miata about it, but it was too late. Miata was about to fall apart.

    9. And, YET, rank 1 Miata's brute strength nearly enabled her to pull over Agatha's giant pod body with her bare hands and body, even as her hands were about to rip off! Well, her hands did rip off, lol, but otherwise, she would have pulled giant Agatha's pod body over! Miata is very very very powerful, she's a rank 1 after all, and Galatea is only a rank 3.

    10. Miata is presumably an offensive type. but, because she's a rank 1, with a lot of power, just like Rafaela, she is able to regenerated.

    Whereas, much weaker presumably offensive rank 22 helen, is unable to regenerate her eye, and (at least previously) too weak rank 47 Clare is also unable to regenerate as well. Rafaela could have regenerated her eye, according to Rubel, but she choose not to because it served as self-punishment for her allowing her beloved sister Luciela to awaken, and as a reminder of her weakness/failure to save her beloved sister Luciela from awakening. Rafaela could have regenerated her eye, but CHOSE not to. Miata as well has been seen to regenerate her arms. powerful awakened beings whom presumably were/are offensive types can also be seen regenerating. Offensive types CAN regenerate, but they need a lot of power compared to defensive types. This is why some offensive types can regenerate and others can't. The ones that can regenerate have more power or yoki, then the ones whom can't.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    as to the question of whether Galatea should be considered as a rank 1 now or not:


    we don't know just how much or what her blindness and years (training? did she train?) in hiding has resulted in with Galatea.


    pre-blindness and pre-7 years galatea:

    as the GOD EYE (yoki powers) she's certainly a contender for rank 1 material. Though we don't know if she is better then Teresa, Rafaela, Alicia, Beth, but that doesn't mean she shouldn't be considered for rank 1 material in terms of yoki power, as she could be just the weakest of them, but still of rank 1 calibur.


    the problem with Galatea, is that she doesn't have that great of an offensive might. She's actually not that strong offensively, in ways she's much like Audrey, or Audrey is like her, lol.

    Audrey, because she is weak, has developed a "magically like" sword technique, the Gentle Sword. This Gentle Sword is kinda like that guy from bleach, forgot his name, where his sword makes whatever it touches heavier, except that it allows Audrey to control the things it touches. We see that audrey after hitting Riful's ribbons, is able to use/control Riful's own ribbons against her.

    Well, Galatea, is weak offensively, so she developed a unique ability with her yoki, to enhance her power beyond what it should normally be at a given yoki amount. This makes Galatea quite powerful, but she still got dominated by Dauf, and was only seen to be able to slice off his hand and his left cheek open. We never got to see if Galatea could have been able to fatally slice Dauf or not, since he dominated her. So, we don't know if Galatea was able to make her attacks as powerful as Jean's Drill Sword or not.

    actually... err.. we do know.. Galatea NEEDED Jean's Drill Sword to kill Dauf, because she was too weak to do so. Galatea even with her enhanced power through her unique yoki ability, still was TOO WEAK to kill Dauf, hence the need for Jean's powerful Drill Sword.


    Blind and after 7 years galatea:

    all we know is that her GOD EYE is now a SUPER GOD EYE, due to her blindness, allowing her to fight as she wasn't blind, while she IS blind. She can sense the real body of Agatha moving around inside her exoskeleton/shell awakened body. But, so can Tabatha, a rank 31.

    we have no idea, if Galatea has gotten more offensively powerful or not, nor have we seen if her unique "enhancing" of power ability is greater.

    we don't know if Galatea was using her full power and/or including the full unique ability of her to enhance her power, though she does at least raise her yoki against Miata. we don't know if this is merely her raising her yoki or her using her unique ability to enhance her power as well as raising her yoki.

    we know/see that Miata displayed more power then of what we saw galatea do. but again, *maybe* galatea wasn't using her full power, as she certainly doesn't want to kill miata.

    HOWEVER, rank 3 Galatea said herself she is too weak to kill rank 2 Agatha, and with her yoki powers, we can probably assume she's correct, lol. Galatea doesn't want to kill miata because she needs Miata to kill Agatha for her. This seems to clearly say that Miata is more powerful and (at least with time/experience/maturity, lol) "superior" to galatea.

    conclusion:

    based on what we do know, Galatea is NOT rank 1 material on a whole. However, if we only look at yoki ability, blind Galatea probably is at rank 1 material now.

    *i do have a theory/belief that Galatea possibly CAN do the soul link now. hehe. she does have great yoki powers, especially now from her blindness. Also, Rubel "conviently" allowed her to watch Alicia+Beth+Soul Link in action against the 11 ABs of isley's remaining 23 army after Pieta which attacked the Organization HQ's, but Alicia destroyed them all just ouside, before Galatea went AWOL and ended up in Rabona. Coincidence, that Rubel would allow God Eye Galatea to watch the Soul Link in action and explain about it to her as she does... hmm... riiiight.... coincidence..... uh..... huh....

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    "Please, if you can find an example of a claymore's awakening being a purely rational decision on the claymore's part, provide it. In my mental review of the awakenings, they have been a result of the claymore losing control of the body through passionate disregard for their personal limit in a single battle, a "gradual" defense mechanism (i.e. what happened to Jean), or the claymore losing control of the body through routine, high-level releases (we know that the partially awakened are in no danger of the last). The last typically occurs with lower level claymores as they have to compensate for their relative weakness through high-level releases. The first is more characteristic of the strongest claymores we've seen awakening (Priscilla, Ophelia, Clare, etc)."
    -kaliayev


    it is true that most awakenings weren't intentional. (what this has to do with anything related to Teresa vs Priscilla, i've yet to understand...)


    but here's some (which are indeed few) examples which you asked for:

    1. Clare. She intentionally hits/passes 80% yoki. Riful herself even comments about how this intentional passing your limits actually for some reason causes you to be MORE powerful then if you un-intentionally pass your limits during the witches maw "arc".

    2. Deneve. After the male awakened fight Miria asks all of them if they've passed their limits. all four of them tell about it. Deneve states that she intentionally tested how "far she can go" and accidentally went "one too far" and began to awaken, but was able to stop/prevent from awakening on her own somehow.

    3. Rosemary. She intentionally awakened, so that she would be more powerful and surprise Teresa too, in order to help her kill Teresa. Unfortunately, Rosemary's having awakened already was already known by Teresa upon at least her approach towards rosemary, and poor Rosemary was pitifully weak, despite being an awakened rank 1, compared to GOD-POWERED Teresa. hehe.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    "Eh, I don't know why you're talking about the awakened Priscilla fighting in human form, especially when you would subsequently tell me not to use Clare as evidence because she is "special" (the fact of the matter is, Clare is closer to being a claymore than Priscilla is). Priscilla's a fully awakened being. As such, she can nigh fully access her potential at any moment. How much of this potential she accesses is ultimately her choice because she has nigh full access to it. Theresa was a claymore, and claymores do not have this luxury. That is why their awakened forms are significantly more powerful than their claymore forms, though, for reasons I noted in an earlier post, I imagine that this wouldn't be the case with Theresa."
    -kaliayev


    i'll just make these comments:

    Awakened Beings (ABs) that we've seen in human form:

    (Priscilla is CLEARLY NOT of AB low calibur, lol. She's the QUEEN of AOs, lol)

    1. Rigardo
    2. Dauf
    3. the male AB (in the Paburo mountains, vs Miria, Deneve, Helen, and Clare)
    4. the female AB (former single digit Claymore, rank 5/6 Elda from Teresa's "Era" maybe. in Gonal town ruins, vs Clare, Ophelia, and "Raki", lol)
    5. the female AB (in Lacroa town, vs Clare, Cynthia, and Yuma)

    ALL of them NEVER fought in their human form. (Dauf's ramming his poles into a chained up Jean, is certainly not a FIGHT/BATTLE, lol). I'm going to presume ABs are too weak in human form to fight stronger Claymores or other ABs.

    Abyssal Ones (AOs) in human form:

    1. Isley
    2. Riful
    3. Luciela
    4. Priscilla
    5. Alicia
    6. Beth

    Isley:

    Isley is incredibly powerful in his human form. Despite being exhausted and near dead, he easily was far too powerful for Deneve and Helen. He's able to Awaken only his arms and use them (just like Clare) while keeping the rest of his body human, which he prefers to do if he can.

    However, his awakened centaur form greatly increases his already great power, as well as giving him the extra abilities that come with it. he gets incredible speed, faster then even silver eyed lion king rigardo. Also, his power increases, especially when he does his lance arm along with his fast charging centaur speed. Unfortunately, we never get to see his superior (and powerful) swordsmanship with his sword arm against the AFs/AEs. cries. Lastly, his bow and arrow arms attack is greatly more powerful while in his awakened centaur form. his arrows fly faster, making them more powerful (more force), and he can control/change them in flight too.

    Riful:

    ...........

    err.. this is going to take too long to describe all of them... hopefully you get my point about it.

    my points are these:

    1. ABs in human form (so far) seem to be too weak for them to use.

    2. AOs in human form are usually still vastly more powerful then the higher/hghest ranks (normal) Claymores. Even Alicia whom wasn't really an awakened yet (due to soul link) fought quite well in her human form against Riful, though Riful was exhausted/tired/damaged as well, but still Alicia fought like the rank 1 Claymore that she was, and her awakened form was at least around a match for Riful's awakened form.

    3. there's a huge difference for ALL characters, between their human/Claymore forms vs their awakened forms. Awakened Priscilla is helluva powerful even in her human form, but her awakened form is another level entirely. Same with Isley, Riful, and Luciela too. They are incredibly powerful in their humans forms, but are even more powerful in their awakened forms.

    not to mention all the extra abilities they can do due to their awakened forms vs their human/Claymore forms.

    this includes TERESA. Teresa is GODLY as a Claymore. Imagine if she awakened... imagine what she would be like in an awakened form! What's beyond godly.... lol... HORRORIFYING NIGHTMARISH MONSTER OF MONSTERS? laughs.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    "This isn't the only characteristic abyssal class abs share. There is another: nigh ideal specializations for fighting others, be they awakened beings or claymores. Isley had his adaptable weapons and lock-on arrows. Luciela could eat anything that got close to her. The structure/weakness of Riful's body is indiscernable and she can strike out extensively in all directions. Priscilla's limitless youki allows her to spew youki out from any part of her body, meaning that you pretty much need to destroy every part of her to win. That is not to say that other awakened beings don't have interesting and useful specializations (i.e. Duff's rods), but we can tell that they hardly compare to the specializations of the abyssal class. Now, let's look back at Rosemary. Did we see an abyssal class specialization from her? She had a nifty tail, a few extra heads, and was strong for an awakened being. Does that compare favorably to what we've seen from abyssal class abs?"
    -kaliayev


    i actually find this to be a very intersting point you raise and it makes quite a bit of sense too.


    BUT, lol.

    you got a few problems with this idea:

    Clare, Alicia, and Beth.

    Clare, Alicia, Beth, and Rosemary have kinda similar bodies. They aren't as versatile as like you mentioned about Isley, Riful, and Luciela.

    HOWEVER, they are quite specialized, and CAN and DID compete equally against Isley, Riful, and Luciela's bodies.

    1. Alicia with her bladed buzzsaw sleek body was terribly dangerous for Riful (and especially poor dauf, lol). Riful had to be really really cautious and defensive, which fortunately she's quite skilled at being already, as otherwise Alicia probably would have sliced her to pieces, killing her.

    2. Clare, while she never fought Isley, Riful (she didn't really ever FIGHT with her), or Luciela, does have a similar body to Alicia's, well her awakened shoulder HUGE BLADE ARMS are like how Alicia's entire body is, though as of now (especially since her limb awakening failed and we didn't get to see how more powerful she is now) Clare seems still much weaker then Alicia as of ch 100. She did kill rigardo. granted this means nothing, as rigardo doesn't even compare to Isley, Riful, or Luciela, but this was also a long time ago, we KNOW Clare has gotten stronger, and we now have to await for future chapters to see how powerful clare now is with her awakened limbs if she can figure out what went wrong and fix it, lol.

    However, we do see Clare fighting Priscilla! whom is far more powerful then isley, riful, and luciela. Clare actually doesn't do that bad against priscilla.. excluding priscilla's sheer power advantage over clare, enabling her to stomp clare's head into the ground, lol.

    3. the team work of Awakened Alicia and Awakened Beth, actually displayed that Priscilla isn't without some weaknesses. In fact, AO Alicia+ AO Beth was such a threat to Priscilla, that she had to and did kill them, immediately. AO Alicia and AO Beth using teamwork greatly damaged priscilla. as priscilla tried to attack Alicia in front of her, beth speared priscila's back with her tail, ripping it open. when priscilla turned around to take on beth behind her, alicia charged and sliced up priscilla now from behind her.

    the problem for AO Alicia+AO beth and Clare (and Isley), was simply that Priscilla is just too powerful. she has so much power or yoki, that she couldn easily handle regenerating the great damage done to her by Alicia+Beth (and Isley, when they fought, long ago). Then using her great power or yoki, she proceeded to demolish/dominate them. quickly appearing in front of alicia and decapitating her. sending her tentacles out, destroying half of isley's centaur body in an instant single attack, and PWNING Clare with ease.

    4. Rosemary. the points you make about her are based on what is shown. the problem is that we never really get to see what rosemary can do. rosemary isn't using her full power, as we see, she feels she can toy with teresa, laughs... WRONG. teresa then shows rosemary that it is she whom is actually toying with her. then the manga skips the rest of the fight. we don't get to see rosemary desperately fighting teresa, showing what she can do. we only got to see rosemary "toying around" with teresa initially, not realizing she's NO match for teresa.

    so, you really shouldn't be basing your view on the teresa vs rosemary battle, saying rosemary is a weak AB level like maybe Rigardo or Dauf or Agatha. we simply don't see rosemary's actual power, because the manga skips the real battle between them, grr,

    only showing us with teresa 99% victorious....and that 1% is her damaged cloak/cape, laughs, MUHAHAHAAHAH!
    Last edited by HegemonKhan; February 06, 2010 at 03:49 AM.

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  10. #22
    Banned 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
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    Re: Theresa vs. Priscilla - Who is stronger?

    Quote Quote:
    1. FIRST, and foremost, Galatea herself states that, she is too weak to kill Agatha, which is why she released her yoki, hoping she would be found by powerful warriors, and possibly at the sacrifice of her life for Rabona and its human inhabitants' sake, they would also kill Agatha for her.

    2. At first, Galatea is disappointed, with whom the Organization sent, she was pridefully expecting "better" warriors to be sent to kill her lol, but she felt that the Organization must be hurting on "man power" (err woman power) and thus could only send these "two" (Clarice and Miata).

    3. Weak and novice Clarice certainly was cause for concern. However, Galatea did soon recognize Miata's power, however, she also noticed Miata was young and very inexperienced (a novice) too.

    4. At, first veteran-experienced Galatea dominated instinctual but inexperience/novice Miata. Galatea surprised Miata by using her unique yoki ability to enhance her power, and sent Miata flying through a building.

    5. HOWEVER, after this, Galatea no longer bested Miata. Miata got angry/relesaed yoki/or got scolded my Clarice, and "turned it up". rank 1 Miata was suddenly too powerful for poor rank 3 Galatea. Miata moved so fast, that Galatea couldn't get out of the way as Miata sliced off her arm.
    Yes but Galatea only really started getting hurt when Agatha showed up too. Galatea was trying to deal with Agatha (an awakened number 2), Miata (numer 1 potential) and protect the city she loved all at the same time.

  11. #23
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member kaliayev's Avatar
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    Re: Theresa vs. Priscilla - Who is stronger?

    Quote Originally Posted by HegemonKhan View Post
    it is true that most awakenings weren't intentional. (what this has to do with anything related to Teresa vs Priscilla, i've yet to understand...)


    but here's some (which are indeed few) examples which you asked for:

    1. Clare. She intentionally hits/passes 80% yoki. Riful herself even comments about how this intentional passing your limits actually for some reason causes you to be MORE powerful then if you un-intentionally pass your limits during the witches maw "arc".

    2. Deneve. After the male awakened fight Miria asks all of them if they've passed their limits. all four of them tell about it. Deneve states that she intentionally tested how "far she can go" and accidentally went "one too far" and began to awaken, but was able to stop/prevent from awakening on her own somehow.

    3. Rosemary. She intentionally awakened, so that she would be more powerful and surprise Teresa too, in order to help her kill Teresa. Unfortunately, Rosemary's having awakened already was already known by Teresa upon at least her approach towards rosemary, and poor Rosemary was pitifully weak, despite being an awakened rank 1, compared to GOD-POWERED Teresa. hehe.
    It has to do with a theory that people seem to have forgotten about. When Miria first speculated about their status as partially awakened beings, she argued that they may be able to go beyond the conventional limit for claymores at any time they choose. Deneve then tested that theory. We know that, thanks to Pieta, chapter 100, and repeatedly transcending the conventional limit, fully awakening for a partially awakened claymore is an entirely different matter.

    1. Clare wouldn't have awakened in that instance. While she was certainly riled up, the speculations we were "given" in that scene were from the perspectives of Riful and Galatea. Neither of those two knew the full implications of partially awakened beings (Galatea could guess, but a hunch wouldn't have been enough for her to risk Clare continuing to fight near the conventional limit). Riful and Galatea were both reacting to the situation as though Clare were a somewhat normal claymore. Meanwhile, we can look back at Deneve's attempt to "awaken" near the conclusion of the Slashers. Based on the appearances of Clare and Deneve in their respective incidents, the latter had gone even further than Clare did in Riful's lair. However, Deneve did not fully awaken, and, had Galatea not intervened, the same was incredibly likely to hold true for Clare.

    2. That is an interesting case, but I'm fairly certain that it would have been a variation on the third type (losing control of the body due to repeatedly using high-level releases). In order to determine where her limit was, without reaching it in a moment of passion, she would have had to incrementally increased her level of release over a period of time. That is, her releases would have been 50, then 55, then 60, etc. until she reached her point of no return (this incremental increase likely made her point of no return slightly lower than it would have been for a passionate release). She was increasing her personal limit (that is, the level of release she would be able to achieve in a rational, rather than passionate fight) over time in order to discover where her conventional limit (point of no return) was. This, regardless of when she lost control, still would have been a gradual process, rather than a rational choice to awaken in a single moment.

    3. Last time I checked, we weren't given especially intimate details regarding Rosemary's awakening. We know that she sent the black card after awakening. That, and not the awakening, would have been the rational choice, with her thinking a fight with Theresa would be an easy victory. What we saw from Rosemary was a women who was overly passionate about her standing. We know that even after whatever amount of time there was between her awakening and meeting Theresa, Rosemary was still berserk about being demoted. After discovering her demotion, this fury is what would have led to her awakening.

    Quote Originally Posted by HegemonKhan View Post
    i'll just make these comments:

    Awakened Beings (ABs) that we've seen in human form:

    (Priscilla is CLEARLY NOT of AB low calibur, lol. She's the QUEEN of AOs, lol)

    1. Rigardo
    2. Dauf
    3. the male AB (in the Paburo mountains, vs Miria, Deneve, Helen, and Clare)
    4. the female AB (former single digit Claymore, rank 5/6 Elda from Teresa's "Era" maybe. in Gonal town ruins, vs Clare, Ophelia, and "Raki", lol)
    5. the female AB (in Lacroa town, vs Clare, Cynthia, and Yuma)

    ALL of them NEVER fought in their human form. (Dauf's ramming his poles into a chained up Jean, is certainly not a FIGHT/BATTLE, lol). I'm going to presume ABs are too weak in human form to fight stronger Claymores or other ABs.

    Abyssal Ones (AOs) in human form:

    1. Isley
    2. Riful
    3. Luciela
    4. Priscilla
    5. Alicia
    6. Beth

    Isley:

    Isley is incredibly powerful in his human form. Despite being exhausted and near dead, he easily was far too powerful for Deneve and Helen. He's able to Awaken only his arms and use them (just like Clare) while keeping the rest of his body human, which he prefers to do if he can.

    However, his awakened centaur form greatly increases his already great power, as well as giving him the extra abilities that come with it. he gets incredible speed, faster then even silver eyed lion king rigardo. Also, his power increases, especially when he does his lance arm along with his fast charging centaur speed. Unfortunately, we never get to see his superior (and powerful) swordsmanship with his sword arm against the AFs/AEs. cries. Lastly, his bow and arrow arms attack is greatly more powerful while in his awakened centaur form. his arrows fly faster, making them more powerful (more force), and he can control/change them in flight too.

    Riful:

    ...........

    err.. this is going to take too long to describe all of them... hopefully you get my point about it.

    my points are these:

    1. ABs in human form (so far) seem to be too weak for them to use.

    2. AOs in human form are usually still vastly more powerful then the higher/hghest ranks (normal) Claymores. Even Alicia whom wasn't really an awakened yet (due to soul link) fought quite well in her human form against Riful, though Riful was exhausted/tired/damaged as well, but still Alicia fought like the rank 1 Claymore that she was, and her awakened form was at least around a match for Riful's awakened form.

    3. there's a huge difference for ALL characters, between their human/Claymore forms vs their awakened forms. Awakened Priscilla is helluva powerful even in her human form, but her awakened form is another level entirely. Same with Isley, Riful, and Luciela too. They are incredibly powerful in their humans forms, but are even more powerful in their awakened forms.

    not to mention all the extra abilities they can do due to their awakened forms vs their human/Claymore forms.[/B]
    All I saw in this was an argument that, even though abs have nigh full access to their potential whenever they choose (by revealing their form), they don't choose to fully access their potential unless necessary. That is, they generally prefer to remain in human form as long as possible, even if this means converting a small part of their human form to their true form, as typically occurs with abyssal class abs. I fail to see how this isn't consistent with the point I was making. Now then, I was arguing that using Priscilla's awakened form to somehow illustrate that Theresa could release to 30%/beyond is silly, as different standards apply to different entities. I was trying to point out the irony that Goral would discount my using Clare, a partially awakened claymore, to illustrate Theresa's personal limits, and also argue the above when Priscilla is even further removed from Theresa than Clare is (awakened being--->partially awakened claymore--->claymore).

    Quote Originally Posted by HegemonKhan View Post
    you got a few problems with this idea:

    Clare, Alicia, and Beth.

    Clare, Alicia, Beth, and Rosemary have kinda similar bodies. They aren't as versatile as like you mentioned about Isley, Riful, and Luciela.

    HOWEVER, they are quite specialized, and CAN and DID compete equally against Isley, Riful, and Luciela's bodies.

    1. Alicia with her bladed buzzsaw sleek body was terribly dangerous for Riful (and especially poor dauf, lol). Riful had to be really really cautious and defensive, which fortunately she's quite skilled at being already, as otherwise Alicia probably would have sliced her to pieces, killing her.

    2. Clare, while she never fought Isley, Riful (she didn't really ever FIGHT with her), or Luciela, does have a similar body to Alicia's, well her awakened shoulder HUGE BLADE ARMS are like how Alicia's entire body is, though as of now (especially since her limb awakening failed and we didn't get to see how more powerful she is now) Clare seems still much weaker then Alicia as of ch 100. She did kill rigardo. granted this means nothing, as rigardo doesn't even compare to Isley, Riful, or Luciela, but this was also a long time ago, we KNOW Clare has gotten stronger, and we now have to await for future chapters to see how powerful clare now is with her awakened limbs if she can figure out what went wrong and fix it, lol.

    However, we do see Clare fighting Priscilla! whom is far more powerful then isley, riful, and luciela. Clare actually doesn't do that bad against priscilla.. excluding priscilla's sheer power advantage over clare, enabling her to stomp clare's head into the ground, lol.

    3. the team work of Awakened Alicia and Awakened Beth, actually displayed that Priscilla isn't without some weaknesses. In fact, AO Alicia+ AO Beth was such a threat to Priscilla, that she had to and did kill them, immediately. AO Alicia and AO Beth using teamwork greatly damaged priscilla. as priscilla tried to attack Alicia in front of her, beth speared priscila's back with her tail, ripping it open. when priscilla turned around to take on beth behind her, alicia charged and sliced up priscilla now from behind her.

    the problem for AO Alicia+AO beth and Clare (and Isley), was simply that Priscilla is just too powerful. she has so much power or yoki, that she couldn easily handle regenerating the great damage done to her by Alicia+Beth (and Isley, when they fought, long ago). Then using her great power or yoki, she proceeded to demolish/dominate them. quickly appearing in front of alicia and decapitating her. sending her tentacles out, destroying half of isley's centaur body in an instant single attack, and PWNING Clare with ease.

    4. Rosemary. the points you make about her are based on what is shown. the problem is that we never really get to see what rosemary can do. rosemary isn't using her full power, as we see, she feels she can toy with teresa, laughs... WRONG. teresa then shows rosemary that it is she whom is actually toying with her. then the manga skips the rest of the fight. we don't get to see rosemary desperately fighting teresa, showing what she can do. we only got to see rosemary "toying around" with teresa initially, not realizing she's NO match for teresa.

    so, you really shouldn't be basing your view on the teresa vs rosemary battle, saying rosemary is a weak AB level like maybe Rigardo or Dauf or Agatha. we simply don't see rosemary's actual power, because the manga skips the real battle between them, grr,

    only showing us with teresa 99% victorious....and that 1% is her damaged cloak/cape, laughs, MUHAHAHAAHAH!
    This part of your post is a little unfocused. Now then, my argument was that abyssal class abs have specializations for fighting that far outclass those of normal abs. Despite how your post started, you seem to be in agreement with this shared characteristic among the abyssal class abs, as you go on to summarize the "fully awakened" forms of Alicia and Clare.

    How convenient that you jammed Rosemary's name in that little list of yours.

    2. Technically, we haven't seen the final product of Clare's full awakening. With the parts that were fully awakened, she possessed super speed and an exaggerated version of Edward Scissorhands (ideal for trimming bushes...and abs). The way I see her probable awakened form fighting is rushing at an opponent and proceeding to chop them up with her super scissors. This allows her to, with the speed of the qs and the power of an abyssal class ab, severely dismember anything in front of her. That, and the ferocity of her nigh fully awakened form's attack against Rigardo, are clearly abyssal class.

    3. So, awakened Priscilla pwns people...what's your point? In each of her fights against abyssal class opponents, even in the "fight" against the severely handicapped Riful, those opponents displayed their abyssal class specialties, even if Priscilla handily defeated each of them.

    4. Rosemary showed us what Rosemary can do, and her capabilities were clearly below abyssal class. Besides, there wasn't much of a fight after Theresa released. Theresa simply proceeded to chop Rosemary up with ease (hmmm, chopped Rigardo + chopped Rosemary + noodles = stir fry deliciousness, even if you're Priscilla).


    p.s. That extensive portion about Galatea was a tad premature. There isn't even a thread yet .
    Hello, Dave. Is that you, Dave?

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member HegemonKhan's Avatar
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    Re: Theresa vs. Priscilla - Who is stronger?

    no i didn't "slide" rosemary into that group. I would never stoop that low. I can debate, without such pitiful tricks like that which many politicians and such love to do in their speeches/discussions. i feel she DOES belong with the other 3 of them. unfortunately, all i got to go on is looks, which is admittedly weak, but that's all the manga gave us. to me, Rosemary looks like the Alien Queen in the Alien movies series. This i find to be quite similar to Clare, Alicia, and Beth's forms. they are all kinda like Alien Queens.

    or if you played Blizzard's Starcraft (and/or Broodwar expansion) computer game, they are like the zerg, and especially Clare, is like Sarah Kerrigan Queen of Blades. hehe.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Rosemary did NOT show us what she can do.

    slamming Teresa around? you think that is what a rank 1 awakened can only do?

    the normal yomas are capable of more then merely slamming their opponent around. yet, you think that indeed rank 1 awakened rosemary is even less capable then a normal yoma which can do more then slamming someone around?

    this just doesn't make any sense. priscilla is powerful enough to slam everyone around, so is that all she is capable of? NO, we've even seen her to do more then slam her opponents around. pray tell how you've concluded that rank 1 awakened rosemary is only capable of slamming opponents around! please do, as i am baffled and so curious as how you came up with this conclusion. i want to understand this.

    if we hadn't seen Priscilla regenerate and/or use/reveal that her inside body is a mass of tentacles, would you think the same of Priscilla, as you do of Rosemary?
    Last edited by HegemonKhan; February 06, 2010 at 08:03 PM.

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  14. #25
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member kaliayev's Avatar
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    Re: Theresa vs. Priscilla - Who is stronger?

    Quote Originally Posted by HegemonKhan View Post
    no i didn't "slide" rosemary into that group. I would never stoop that low. I can debate, without such pitiful tricks like that which many politicians and such love to do in their speeches/discussions. i feel she DOES belong with the other 3 of them. unfortunately, all i got to go on is looks, which is admittedly weak, but that's all the manga gave us. to me, Rosemary looks like the Alien Queen in the Alien movies series. This i find to be quite similar to Clare, Alicia, and Beth's forms. they are all kinda like Alien Queens.
    Yes, I have seen Aliens, and yes, Rosemary did look like a xenomorph (don't really see much of a resemblance from Clare or Alicia though). Unfortunately, Rosemary and the abyssal class abs aren't the only bizarre-looking creatures we've seen. The abs look monstrous...they are monsters after all.

    Now then, I'm sorry that you feel insulted by my saying that you jammed Rosemary in the list. This was what I was working with:

    Quote Originally Posted by HegemonKhan View Post
    Clare, Alicia, and Beth.

    Clare, Alicia, Beth, and Rosemary have kinda similar bodies. They aren't as versatile as like you mentioned about Isley, Riful, and Luciela.
    In the first grouping, you listed current abyssal class claymores. In your second grouping, you listed the same claymores, but then added Rosemary in, insisting that the proof lies in similar appearances (don't really see much of a similarity myself, so your groupings appear flimsy). While it has been proven that Clare, Alicia, and Beth are abyssal class, this is not the case with Rosemary.

    Quote Originally Posted by HegemonKhan View Post
    Rosemary did NOT show us what she can do.

    slamming Teresa around? you think that is what a rank 1 awakened can only do?

    the normal yomas are capable of more then merely slamming their opponent around. yet, you think that indeed rank 1 awakened rosemary is even less capable then a normal yoma which can do more then slamming someone around?

    this just doesn't make any sense. priscilla is powerful enough to slam everyone around, so is that all she is capable of? NO, we've even seen her to do more then slam her opponents around. pray tell how you've concluded that rank 1 awakened rosemary is only capable of slamming opponents around! please do, as i am baffled and so curious as how you came up with this conclusion. i want to understand this.

    if we hadn't seen Priscilla regenerate and/or use/reveal that her inside body is a mass of tentacles, would you think the same of Priscilla, as you do of Rosemary?
    Had Rosemary started the battle without insisting on a fight in which she posed as a claymore, I'd agree that she might have been holding back after she revealed her true form. However, we know that she had already satisfied her desire to "fool with" Theresa in this "claymore" fight. After revealing her form, Rosemary would have been going all out against Theresa. She thought that her best would overwhelm Theresa, which would put her in a position to further taunt Theresa (i.e. "bwa ha ha, you're so pitiful compared to my awesome strength").

    I never made any argument that Rosemary was a weak ab. I was pointing out that her strength was dwarfed by abyssal class abs. These entities (Priscilla, Riful, Luciela, Alicia, Beth, and Isley) were specifically verified as abyssal class abs. Because Rosemary lacked such verification, the burden of proof that Rosemary is abyssal class lies with those who argue that she is. Now, I have pointed out a number of issues that make said case more difficult, but you still haven't proven that Rosemary was an abyssal class ab. As Rosemary came to realize that she, and not Theresa, was the one in a life or death situation, if Rosemary had more potential, she would have relied on it.

    p.s. I'm pretty sure I saw Rosemary do more than slam Theresa into the ground .
    Last edited by kaliayev; February 07, 2010 at 12:19 AM.
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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member HegemonKhan's Avatar
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    Re: Theresa vs. Priscilla - Who is stronger?

    well..

    the argument i have for rosemary is the only one there is as indeed the manga doesn't give hardly anything to go on (besides her looks, lol), that she is a rank 1, jsut like ALL the others:

    1. isley=rank 1= abyssal one
    2. riful=rank 1 = abyssal one
    3. luciela =rank 1 = abyssal one

    4. Alicia= rank 1 = abyssal one (fought ~nearly equally against Riful)

    5. teresa=rank 1 = beyond abyssal ones
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------
    6. Priscilla = rank "2" = beyond abyssal ones

    from power, clearly priscilla was a rank 1, becoming not just an abyssal one, but rather a beyond abyssal one, like teresa. the awakened priscilla that is top (female dog) that we know so well now in these last chapters.

    but, let me explain why priscilla WAS rank 1 in title, despite the Organization giving her rank 2.

    for some reason i won't ever understand, teresa kept rank 1, even though she was a traitor. this meant priscilla had to be rank 2 and which lowered irene, sophia, noel, and elda 's ranks down 1.

    also, irene WAS rank 2, and priscilla was more powerful then her, which makes her a rank 1. the problem was that for unknown reason to me, traitor teresa, kept her rank 1 status, even as the Organization was trying to hunt her down and execute her. makes no sense at all to me.

    if teresa wasn't "there":

    priscilla= rank 1
    irene=rank 2
    sophia=rank 3
    noel=rank 4
    elda=rank 5

    i guess, they wanted the "closure" of teresa's death, before they officially give priscilla her rank 1 status. this is the only thing i can come up with as why priscilla wasn't automatically given the rank 1 status that she was and why teresa's wasn't stripped away from her rank 1 status even as she was being hunted down for execution.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    7 and 8. Rafaela and Beth. rank 2's. =abyssal ones

    Beth:

    We have seen recently, that rank 2 Beth was indeed equal to rank 1 Alicia. This is explained by them being sisters, equal in power to each other. of course you can't have two rank 1's. so this meant one of them had to be given rank 2, which happened to be Beth. We see Alicia fighting ~ equal footing with Riful (maybe better then Riful or slightly worse then riful. judgement call, but it can't be argued that they are close to being equal to each other). While, we never get to see Beth (actually fight, dodging Dauf's attacks doesn't count) against the "unholy 3" AOs, and Priscilla doesn't work either, because she's far beyond the "unholy 3" AOs. Beth did fight equally well as alicia did against priscilla. all of this seems to suggest to me that alicia and beth are equal in power, both are rank 1's and ~equal to the power of the "unholy 3" AOs.

    Rafaela:

    Like Beth, she is a sister, and not just any sister, but sister to the "unholy 3" AO Luciela. While we never see Rafaela fight against the "unholy 3" AOs (crushing human form exhausted Luciela to death doesn't count), Rubel comments that she IS equal in power to her "unholy 3" AO sister Luciela. Taking the fact they are sisters like alicia and beth, and Rubel saying it to us, Rafaela must also be a rank 1 in power and as rubel says, EQUAL, to her "unholy 3" AO sister Luciela, putting her directly along with the "unholy 3" AOs. like with alicia and beth, there can't be two rank 1's, so it was rafaela whom got the rank 2 spot.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    9. Miata. "rank 4". =abyssal ones (or beyond abyssal ones with more time and training and maturity)

    the manga has stated and shown Miata as a rank 1 in power.

    so, then why in the world was Miata given her rank 4 status?

    she's young, inexperienced, immature, and childish/un-minding/dis-obedient/UN-WEENED (lol)/any other issues she has.

    she's simply literally a child (or maybe i should say, baby as she is UN-WEENED). despite her incredible power and her incredible instinct, allowing her to fight extremely well, she could be even more formable then priscilla, and even maybe teresa, if she grows up and matures, and learns experience in combat along with her incredible natural instinct.

    it is miata, whom truly has the potential and latent poweres to exceed teresa, NOT priscilla.

    quite frankly, Miata is far too over-looked by most people, Miata is truly the one, whom is able to surpass Teresa, NOT priscilla. It is Miata whom should have gone for Teresa's head, after she grown up and matured and gained combat experience.

    Priscilla is the phony/fake/fraud/failure.

    Miata is the real thing. Miata is the real Claymore capable of being Teresa's successor.

    Awakened Priscilla is the FAILURE. Awakened Miata is the SUCCESS. AND that is SCARY!

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    so, as can be seen, all of these Claymores i've pointed out, are rank 1's AND are ~EQUAL to the AO LEVELS of Isley, Riful, and Luciela.

    thus, rosemary, whom is also a rank 1, in my reasoning, must be ~ the AO level calibur of Isley/Riful/Luciela as well, just like all the rest of the rank 1's are.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    p.s.

    if you want, i'm certainly willing to concede to/with this:

    most powerful AOs

    1. Teresa and Priscilla
    2. Isley, Riful, and Luciela
    3. Alicia, Beth, Rafaela, and Rosemary
    4. ~Miata, ~Clare, and ~Miria

    least powerful AOs

    OR

    most powerful AOs

    1. Teresa and Priscilla
    2. Isley, Riful, and Luciela
    3. Alicia and Beth
    4. Rafaela, Rosemary, ~Miata, ~Clare, and ~Miria

    least powerful AOs
    Last edited by HegemonKhan; February 07, 2010 at 03:24 AM.

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    Registered User 初心者/ Shoshinsha / Beginner
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    Re: Theresa vs. Priscilla - Who is stronger?

    Had Rosemary started the battle without insisting on a fight in which she posed as a claymore, I'd agree that she might have been holding back after she revealed her true form. However, we know that she had already satisfied her desire to "fool with" Theresa in this "claymore" fight. After revealing her form, Rosemary would have been going all out against Theresa. She thought that her best would overwhelm Theresa, which would put her in a position to further taunt Theresa (i.e. "bwa ha ha, you're so pitiful compared to my awesome strength").
    Well, the fact here is, Even if she go all out with Theresa, there probably will not be much difference because Theresa completely outclassed her. In addition, Rosemary has always been underestimating Theresa's strength ( Just read the manga yourself), until teresa has unleashed her Yoma power, which probably shocked her completely. This definitely contributed to how easily she was slayed by Theresa ( apart from being outclassed in power). This shock she received probably stunned her and prevented her from taking the necessary precaution.

    I never made any argument that Rosemary was a weak ab. I was pointing out that her strength was dwarfed by abyssal class abs. These entities (Priscilla, Riful, Luciela, Alicia, Beth, and Isley) were specifically verified as abyssal class abs. Because Rosemary lacked such verification, the burden of proof that Rosemary is abyssal class lies with those who argue that she is. Now, I have pointed out a number of issues that make said case more difficult, but you still haven't proven that Rosemary was an abyssal class ab. As Rosemary came to realize that she, and not Theresa, was the one in a life or death situation, if Rosemary had more potential, she would have relied on it.
    Well, Rosemary is probably capable of being at abyssal standard. She has held her position of NO 1 for very long until teresa made her appearance. As someone said before, this meant that irene( who was very powerful ), didnt stand a chance against her until someone as imbalanced as Theresa appears ( anyone will be demoted with the presense of Theresa so just because she was demoted by Theresa's presense do not imply that she lacks ABS calibre). What are abyssal ones? They are former NO 1 who has awakened and the organisation are aware of it. In generations of Riful, Lucelia and Easely there probably isnt an existence of someone with Theresa's calibre to actually kill an awakened abyssal one without awakening herself. Thats why these abysal being's existed. However for Rosemary's case, there is the presense of Theresa who killed her before she could roam.( the organisation didnt even know that she awakened) thus did not name her as an abyssal ones because by right she hasnt awaken. Regarding Rosemary's 'poor perception' of claymores potential is also quite a weak arguement. Abyssal being just needed the strength but not the ability to judge others accurately. Easely himself have misjudged priscilla a few times. First by sending Rigaldo, thinking that he will be suffice to defeat priscilla. Secondly by challenging priscilla himself, only to realise that he is not her match when she instantly destoryed half of his body. Riful knew that priscilla overpowers her based on Easley's attitude despite nearing his death. Rafella did not sensed that theresa had ABS ability (Since when did she) She was just surpsied at how theresa was able to sense her presense despite her surpressing her yoki to fullest. We have all belittled rosemary's power just because she was killed easily by teresa. But the fact that Rosemary was killed by teresa without any effort doesnt not justify that she do not deserve the ABS status. I wouldnt be surprised if Riful and Easely to be slayed just as easily because Theresa is just overwhelmingly powerful. And you have to realise that the theresa we've seen fighting with Priscilla isnt even at her full potential ( She was showing mercy all along, unlike priscilla who focused her thought on killing theresa), but this wasnt the case when she faught with rosemary. This can be justified by Irene, who said that Theresa's skills as a worrior DETERIORated after being with clare as she softened. Regarding her body structure or special features to 'qualify' as an abyssal one is even more invalid. Yes, it is true that Easley, Riful and Lucelia had special features, there isnt even enough time for ROsemary to display her skills because the fight ended too fast. In addition, even if Rosemry do not have one special structure wont prevent her from having abs status. Whats the best example of this? Its the one you are arguing for, Priscilla. Does she have any special feature except extending her fingers, having wings and a horn? Any ABs would probably be able to posses this abilitys but Priscilla is Beyond ABS standard.
    Now back to the main argument. Who is actually more powerful?
    I don't even see a point in arguing over this. Theresa is OBVIOUSLY superior. Since you do not want to discuss about potential, we shall not do so as it is hard to justify who has bigger potential.
    You're first arguement was: Theresa probably will not be able to release beyond 10% of her power. Now... this is quite ridiculous. Find evidence for me of any worrior who is unable to do so. How to release one's Yoki is one of the most important and basic training a claymore will receive, do you think Theresa will probably forget it? Theresa once said to priscilla ( as we fight and experience, we slowing grasp our limit), this imply that theresa probably went through the same experience of testing out her own limit and it is ridiculous to think that her limit is at 10%? Just because she do not release yoki often does not mean that she cannot. Galatea is another claymore who hardly release her yoki beyond 10% as it oppose her 'beauty policy' but does it mean that she cant do it if she had to? NO. She was able to release beyong 30% in the fight with dauf. This proof that if teresa had to do it, she definitely would be able to. You claimed that it is an inductive conclusion,ill say that its a slippery slope assumption. Theresa probably doesnt even mean what she say as 'Forgetting how to do it', shes probably joking and at the time furthue emphasize the fact that she does not rely on Yoki to dominate.
    And you said that Theresa will probably not go berserk and go 'Beyond 30%' of her limit. WEll teresa herself said that at 70%, we reach our limit ( implies that its probably her limit as well), just reaching 30% is far from losing herself. SO why didnt Theresa do so then? Firstly, she didnt really need to and secondly, she didnt expect Priscilla to play dirty. If you really must blame, just blame tht she got kinder and softer due to clare but not her power being weaker.
    Secondly, the nature of their ability makes priscilla impossible to defeat Theresa. When is the time where teresa had the biggest problem with dealing with priscilla? Its when 1) She fully hide her Yoki, 2) She release too much yoki that her speed and strength outmatch teresa.
    The former is not an issue, since priscilla is not Teresa's match with no Yoki release ( regardless of their potential) Because teresa can simply release her yoki to defeat priscilla if priscilla doesnt. 2) As we seen from the fight between them, Priscilla's speed at 80% do not even outmatch teresa's at 10%, infact teresa is even stronger. Even beyond 80%, the fact that teresa isnt knocked back by priscilla's strength implies that their strength probably equal at that point. And the fact that Teresa's power increases exponentially with yoki release, she can undoubtly deafeat priscilla at 30% realease if she fight as seriously as Priscilla at 100%. IF we even bother to include Theresa's unparralled ability to predict yoki, which is the main reason of her power, the more priscilla release yoki, the easier theresa can read. Of course, you will argue that priscilla probably released too much yoki for theresa to read. But that problem can be overcomed with teresa releasing yoki herself, which is justified in the show when she released 10% yoki, she could use her ability again to read 80% priscilla's yoki. DO you think that a 30% release of yoki is insufficient for her to read 100% priscilla yoki?We dont even have to discuss about if both awaken who will be stronger as thats too obvious.


    Im really sorry about this but due to the nature of this manga and Theresa's ability, she is undoubtly invincible even to miata unless someone surpasses Theresa's unparalleled ability to sense Yoma ( is it even possible? )
    Down to pure combat skills - Teresa is already the most powerful(At the moment), i dont think we need to argue about this?
    Base on the current situation and power of claymore characters, Theresa is still the invincible.
    Ok, what if One day someone, be it miata or priscilla(Did not awaken) surpasses Theresa in basic combat skills( Taking into consideration that Theresa do not continue sharpening her skills and they are able to hunt her down), then they will be able to defeat Theresa at 0% release. Theresa will then release her power and outclass both of them. Then the game is set. Once they release their Yoki, they will not be able match to Theresa's unparalleled ability to sense Yoki. Unless they severely outclass theresa in terms of strength and speed which i dont think is possible since Theresa's calibre is already at the top. This will probably require the creation of a being that is much stronger than Theresa and i mean much.( even if priscilla and Miata do surpass Theresa , it will be barely but not much) And it probably will require an extremely long training which by then, any claymore would have died ( The organisation wont allow any claymore to stay alive for too long).
    However, if u are talking abt who will even stand a chance to behand theresa, i would say that this person is Miata. By the time they can enhance their skills to even match theresa's combat skills, theresa's scent will probably have vanished hence its unlikely for priscilla to find her.
    Last edited by liu_hao_chen@hotma; February 07, 2010 at 11:21 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

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  18. #28
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member HegemonKhan's Avatar
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    Re: Theresa vs. Priscilla - Who is stronger?

    wonderful post, though i like it because i agree with it. laughs
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    my reasoning for saying Miata is the only one whom has a chance against Teresa, is because:

    Miata is the ONLY one whom has an ability to match Teresa's Faint Smile ability. Miata's natural instinct. It has the same effect as Teresa's Faint Smile ability. In fact, Miata's natural instinct is superior to Teresa's Faint Smile. The Faint Smile ONLY works when yoki is released. Miata's natural instinct ALWAYS works, yoki released or not. *If* Miata could learn/train to match Teresa's expert-flawless-perfect combat experience/skills, and *if* Miata is powerful enough, her natural instinct will put her superior to Teresa.


    Clare is the only other one, whom can surpass/match Teresa, because she has the same Faint Smile ability, as Teresa's. In fact, she HAS TERESA and Teresa's+Clare's Faint Smile ability, lol.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    all priscilla has is her raw power, which allows her to easily and often regenerate the grave/fatal damage done to her, which currently no one can match. But, priscilla has nothing else. no godly Faint Smile ability. That's apparent, laughs, priscilla gets CENSORED up in her battles, she can't avoid taking damage at all. The ONLY reason Priscilla is still alive is because of her vast power enabling her to regenerate all the fatal damage done to her, which she fails over and over again to prevent.
    Last edited by HegemonKhan; February 07, 2010 at 03:51 PM.

  19. #29
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Goral's Avatar
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    Re: Theresa vs. Priscilla - Who is stronger?

    Quote Originally Posted by kaliayev View Post
    My theory may be an example of inductive reasoning, thereby having natural weaknesses, but that hardly makes it baseless. (...) Now then, inductively concluding that Theresa's personal limit was 10% release (or if you prefer, below 30%) is not a grandiose leap.
    Of course it is a big lap. What you did can hardly be considered as "inductive reasoning". Like I said, going by your line of thought Yuma can't awaken either. We could also say that because we haven't seen Priscilla in awakened form after so many years she forgot how to change.
    1) (argument about 10% being the limit of Teresa just because she didn't use more youki) It doesn't mean anything except that Teresa was very powerful.
    2) (argument about what Teresa said to Rosemary) You're interpreting her words ridiculously
    Why didn't Teresa release her youki while fighting four opponents at the same time? Why didn't she release it the moment Prisiclla went after her again and used more youki than before? Because she couldn't? She could easily defeat 80% Prisicilla while releasing only 10% of her youki so why would she need an overkill? Your reasoning is too far-fetched.
    Inductive reasoning would be if there was a claymore that couldn't awaken and you would assume that Teresa was like that also.

    Quote Quote:
    Please, if you can find an example of a claymore's awakening being a purely rational decision on the claymore's part, provide it. (...)
    I don' see how it's relevant to what I've written or our discussion. I can give examples (Alicia, Luciella, Clare) but since it has nothing to do with Teresa I don't see the point. Well, you could successfully argue that it wasn't purely rational decision on claymore's part (Alicia had hardly the ability to make rational decisions by herself and Clare was agitated although she got what she wanted) but both cases show that it's not hard to awaken and you don't have to go berserk for that which proves my point.

    Quote Quote:
    Eh, I don't know why you're talking about the awakened Priscilla fighting in human form, especially when you would subsequently tell me not to use Clare as evidence because she is "special" (the fact of the matter is, Clare is closer to being a claymore than Priscilla is). Priscilla's a fully awakened being. As such, she can nigh fully access her potential at any moment. How much of this potential she accesses is ultimately her choice because she has nigh full access to it. (...)
    I see that bolding my sentence is not enough. You don't send whole regiment to kill one guy. That would be plainly stupid. That's one of the reasons Teresa didn't release more youki (since she could easily deal with Priscilla as she was why bother and increase power?). Priscilla also, she didn't need her awakened form to deal with Riful, Alicia, Beth or Clare so she didn't awaken. In other words, Priscilla didn't asssume her more powerful awakened form because her human form was powerful enough to deal with any obstacles. Teresa at 10% was enough to defeat Priscilla at 80% (plus she could only become closer to awakening if she did) so she didn't overkill either. In Teresa's case it was even more rational to not use more power than it was in Priscilla's case and yet Priscilla's case is not strange to you but Teresa's case is.
    Anyway, I agree that Priscilla has access to full power but not in human form. We know that after Clare cut Riful she unwillingly assumed her awakened form due to youki leakage which human form couldn't stand. After that Clare said "so this is the power of an abyssal" she clearly sensed difference in power before and after Riful devastated the environment. It wasn't only ribbons ability that made her think that (after all she saw how easily she could stop Jean earlier). Even Riful herself said she wanted to end all this before things escalated because "she doesn't like her power being measured", i.e. it was easier to measure her power in that form. So taking all of this into account I think that in human form even if they want to they can't leak as much youki as they can in their awakened form. In claymore form they can use over 70% of their powers and still be in human forms, in awakened form they can't. If they want to fight at full power they have to awaken.
    That's why Isley changed to his horse form when he was fighting ZACS (it would be much easier for him to fight off ZACS if they weren't all over him because he was so big but clearly advantages of awakened form outweighed disadvantages and staying in smaller, human form wasn't an option). That's why Isley and Luciella didn't want to change their forms at first.
    In short, if Priscilla wanted to she could awaken and deal with obstacles even easier but it would be unnecessary so she didn't just like Teresa did.

    Quote Quote:
    Finally, I will have you note that I am examining personal limits. As I have repeatedly brought up in my posts, this is not a matter of what is possible, but what is likely. That is, it is possible for Theresa (or any other claymore) to go to 30%/beyond, but it was unlikely that Theresa would go berserk and thus satisfy the conditions for her to release to 30%/beyond. Similarly, it is possible that Clare will fully awaken (we damn near witnessed this in Pieta), but it is unlikely when we compare her current mental state with her mental state when Rigardo was eliminating the buffer force.
    Alicia's and Luciella's examples show that for awakening one doesn't have to be berserk. Clare's example shows that one can bring out more power at will (she wanted speed she got it and overwhelmed Rigardo). Jean's example shows that pain can trigger awakening also. In other words Teresa could awaken really easily if she wanted and needed to. Since she didn't want nor need she didn't. Simple as that. We have all the reasons to think that Teresa could go over the limit and absolutely none (besides your opinion) that she couldn't. In fact, as I've written earlier, Teresa indirectly said that she learned about the limits of her power (in Teresa's case it would be probably better to say lack of limits) thus she admitted that she released more power. She also knew everything about stages of awakening, 10%, 30%, and 80%, knew the theory behind it. And all her talk to Rosemary says is that she doesn't release her youki often.

    Nice post liu_hao_chen@hotma. Thanks to you I don't have to repeat myself again about Rosemary (although I might add sth later just for fun).

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    Re: Theresa vs. Priscilla - Who is stronger?

    Well all I have to say is that the question was "Teresa vs Priscilla"
    So simply
    Teresa 10% > Priscilla 10%
    Teresa 20% > Priscilla 20%
    Ect Ect

    If Teresa was 80% while Priscilla 80% no doubt Priscilla would be dead
    But Teresa wouldn't even have to go 80% to kill Priscilla at 100%

    Fact is Teresa is dead and it was because she was caught off guard but if Teresa and Priscilla evenly paired their yoki no doubt Teresa would win

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