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Moved these posts from the discussion/predictions thread since they were off-topic over there and this seemed to be hot topic of its own. Please use this thread to discuss Theresa vs. Priscilla ~igotthegoods
Teresa trashed 80%+ Priscilla with only 10%, and while Priscilla at that level wasn't as strong as Awakened Priscilla she must have at least been slightly close so I'm confident Teresa could have killed Awakened Priscilla without awakening. And if Teresa did awaken...well the world has gotta end one day mine as well take out Priscilla on the way.Quote:
Last edited by HegemonKhan; July 22, 2011 at 07:04 AM.
She was focusing on Clare her pseudo daughter and as such she completely lowered her guard. But I do see what you're saying Teresa should have been able to tell if Priscilla blinked because of the MASSIVE amounts of yoki she was radiating.
Jebus, where is all this Theresa automatically pwns awakened Priscilla talk coming from? Theresa is frakking dead. She didn't have what it took to detect Priscilla's surprise attack or mercilessly destroy any immediate threat. As such, she lost, and she'd have the same detection problem against the fully awakened Priscilla. Meanwhile, Priscilla is still roaming the continent, annihilating the best the organization has come up with in the aftermath of her awakening. Next time you see Theresa kill two abyssal class + beings without breaking a sweat, let me know. Oh wait, you can't, so you have no evidence that Theresa would have stood a chance against the awakened Priscilla.
Testy aren't we? It's just speculation dude chill out. And actually we have seen her kill an Abyssal class person without breaking a sweat. And the only reason she was killed is because she let her guard down, she had what it took to sense the attack she just didn't utilize it because she got soft an as such she just assumed everyone else had too, which happens to everyone real-life or not when they go through such a change.Quote:
since there's no Teresa vs Priscilla thread on the first page of the forum, I guess I'll post this here as others have just posted here about Teresa vs priscilla, which i'm posting an addition for people for consider, which I just recently discovered myself. I've decided it would be worse to necro an old thread, if there even is a Teresa vs Priscilla thread. I only looked at the first page for the thread, which is why I don't know if there's such a thread or not. Regardless, as I said, I feel it is less etiquete to necro an old thread, then to add my own post about Teresa vs Priscilla, which others have already jsut done on this thread, ch 100 discussion, and which i'm responding.
Goral, you might be interested in this, but maybe you also already noticed this.
I went back to look over the Teresa vs Priscilla chapters again... and noticed something i have never noticed or seen anyone comment about as of yet.
the manga actually states/shows Teresa's method of progression in how she battles opponents.
this is what i mean by method of progression:
1. Teresa uses JUST/ONLY her Faint Smile, as that is usually all she needs. It is perfect for normal yomas (the various ones we see her kill), Claymores (Irene, Sophia, and Noel), and an Awakened (Rosemary).
if, Teresa is unable to merely/just/only use her Faint Smile, like against Priscilla (whom I theorize has actually NEVER used yoki before as she's been so powerful like but not equal to Teresa, hence Teresa has nothing, no yoki, to use her Faint Smile on), then....
2. Teresa uses her superiority in combat/physical ability. Priscilla gets PWNED by Teresa's superiority in combat/physical ability.
then all 4 Claymores (Irene, Sophia, Noel, and Priscilla) take on Teresa together at the same time. Priscilla has now released and is using yoki, along with the rest of them.
3. Teresa can now go back to merely/just/only using her Faint Smile. Teresa easily PWNS ALL OF THEM, since they are all using/releasing yoki now.
Priscilla releases her yoki to 70-79%, which is "so powerful" (or rather powerful enough), that Teresa is unable to use her Faint Smile WHILE AT 0% YOKI RELEASE.
Teresa probably gets cut (across her forehead) for the first time in her life, BY A SURPRISE wrapping of the arm around her (Priscilla's) head using her yoma power of arm extension, detouring around what would normally be a debilating recoil/recovery, to immediately strike again at Teresa, which manages to get the mentioned cut on Teresa's forehead.
4. Teresa merely/just/only releases 10% yoki. Teresa is once again able to use her Faint Smile. Priscilla never lays a "finger" on Teresa again. 10% Teresa PWNS 70-79% Priscilla, despite Priscilla's yoma power of arm extension.
Priscilla releases/uses more yoki, pushing her past her limit (80% yoki) and her Awakening process starts to begin, unrecognized by her (Priscilla) as I theorize that she has NEVER even used yoki before, let alone know about its dangers (Awakening) as 80% is neared or even breached, which Priscilla has just done.
80% or more Priscilla is too powerful for 10% Teresa, as we see Teresa barely able to parry her strike, grimacing with effort.
(maybe, someone who is good with math, can use this to figure out exactly how much more powerful Priscilla got from going from 70-79% to 80% or more, then compare this with Teresa's power, to find out how much more powerful Awakening actually makes the individual. Then they could find out just how powerful Teresa would be Awakened at 80% or more yoki)
5. Teresa foolishly doesn't raise her yoki beyond 10% even though 80% or more Priscilla just displayed greater power, due to Teresa's softness and seeing Priscilla's muscles bulk up ripping her clothes from her Awakening process, dropping her sword, and begging to be executed so that she can die as a human.
6. Priscilla pick up her sword, and slices off Teresa's hands and then her head, killing Teresa.
We don't know if this is merely because Teresa's caution/wariness/focus/guard was down, or if 80% or more Priscilla was simply too fast/quick for 10% (or 0% in the anime, since we see Teresa's eyes going back to silver) Teresa to react/respond to.
first option/method to deal with opponents
1. Faint Smile. Only NON-using/releasing yoki Claymore Priscilla required/caused Teresa to move onto her next (#2) option/method, since there was no yoki released to use her Faint Smile on.
2. superior combat/physical abilities. This was soundly enough to defeat amature and inferior Claymore Priscilla.
3. 10% yoki release. Goes back to using Faint Smile again. This was ONLY needed when Claymore Priscilla raised her yoki to 70-79%.
4. more then 10% yoki release. Teresa failed to do this against 80% or more yoki releasing Priscilla, which was needed to be done, as 80% or more yoki Priscilla was too powerful for Teresa at only 10% yoki.
last option/method to deal with opponents
Method/option #1 (Faint Smile) has ALWAYS been all that Teresa ever needed against all her opponents. Be they normal yomas, Claymores, or even an Awakened former rank 1 Claymore (which IS what Isley, Riful, and Luciela are. So Rosemary would have been an Abyssal One as well, albeit a very brief one).
Priscilla's complete lack of yoki release/use was the FIRST time Teresa ever HAD TO move onto her option/method #2 (her superior combat/physical abilities).
Priscilla was then powerful enough at 70-79% yoki, to force Teresa to move onto her "last" option/method #3 of ONLY 10% yoki release, lol.
Lastly, for the first time ever, Teresa had an opponent, which 10% yoki release wasn't enough to obliterate her opponent, an 80% or more yoma releasing and about to Awaken Priscilla. Unfortunately, we never get to see Teresa release more yoki, going beyond her 10% yoki release "last limit" (lol), as she doesn't release more yoki and ends up getting decapitated.
Last edited by HegemonKhan; February 04, 2010 at 01:53 AM.
i sure did open a can of warms with that Teresa comment ahah.
but I stand by my statement, Priscilla was small fry compared to Org. #1 Teresa.
There are two reasons to believe Rosemary was not an abyssal class being:
1) Her status as the former number one does not automatically make her abyssal class. Think about all the generations of claymores that have likely existed. The idea of there being only three abyssal ones if every number one has the potential to be abyssal class beings is absurd. While Rosemary may be near Rigardo in terms of capabilities, that doesn't make her a true number one. The rank of number one only means that the described warrior is the best of her generation. The number one is only as good as her sample, especially after possible purges (Raphaela encountered Therese shortly after the Luciela incident. She would go on to replace the individual who became number one in the aftermath of the Luciela incident. Guess who was number one before Theresa). Now that Alicia and Beth are gone, Audrey is the de facto number one. Do you think that she is abyssal class? Had Isley never existed Rigardo would have been the number one of his generation. Does that magically make Rigardo abyssal class? While Raphaela was the only abyssal class claymore around when the org was training Alicia and Beth, she was ranked number five. Being number one is relative, and only true number ones deserve to be classified as abyssal class.
2) The organization's countermeasures. We know that Priscilla was being groomed to surpass and eventually kill Theresa. Even before the incident with the bandits, the org saw Theresa as problematic and wanted her eliminated ASAP (same with the warriors of Pieta and Galatea). This is both emblematic of her status as a true number one and her personality. If the org considered Rosemary a true number one, they would not have allowed her to go gallivanting around as number two. The risk of her becoming disillusioned with the org or eventually awakening would have been too strong (we've seen the shortcomings of the black cards a number of times). Instead of having Rosemary yield the rank without a fight, the org would have used a ranking-related duel against Theresa as a pretense to kill Rosemary. However, this didn't happen because the org didn't fear that Rosemary was a true number one.
This certainly doesn't mean that Theresa couldn't take on an abyssal class being, but I'm pretty sure that I told you to give me an example of her severely outclassing two, allied abyssal class beings.
Now then, I enjoy and partially accept, even if I still think Priscilla is now boss, Goral's argument because he can provide a strong defense of his speculation. He raises a number of valid points. Overall, I have to return to the immediacy issue. Theresa died in chapter 23. She was an incredible warrior. However, regardless of the plot, there's not much point in continuing to 100+ chapters if the strongest fighter you can imagine died early on. There would simply be a level of apathy on Yagi's part when coming up with new heroes and villains. If you ask me, the author's need to outdo himself, and Theresa, in recent chapters is what has definitively placed Priscilla beyond every character.
In regards to Theresa, my main problem with your points is that you are still using the fight with the non-awakened Priscilla as evidence of Theresa's automatic superiority over the awakened Priscilla. This simply isn't logical. Whatever physical shortcomings, relative to Theresa, Priscilla may have had as a claymore no longer matter as she transcended them by awakening.
Back to the matter at hand, I do not think that, though she had incredible reserves of youki, Theresa could release to 30% or beyond. Based on her statement to Rosemary and the fact that she has only ever released to 10% over the course of the manga, 10% is her likely "limit." If she ever fought anyone who could overwhelm her at 10%, which is likely the case with the awakened Priscilla, Theresa would lose simply because she wouldn't know how to release 30% or beyond. Theresa's immense youki reserve becomes superfluous if she can only access a minor portion of it.
You provide a good summary of the events and some interesting insights. However, based on what I've said above, I think you could have gone a little further with the conclusion.
p.s. Heh, guess my first sentence is superfluous now that a thread has been created.
Last edited by kaliayev; February 04, 2010 at 05:26 PM. Reason: didn't like my grammar and moved portion to relevant thread.
just because a character dies, doesn't mean they were inferior (less powerful).
if micheal jordan died while a kid, does that mean he wasn't the greatest (or one of the greatest) basketball player(s) ever?
i'll answer my own question: NO
dying doesn't erase one's current abliity/prowess/superiority/power or their future/"potential" of it had they not died.
and the teresa vs priscilla debate is NOT about who lived ("won") and died ("lost").
we clearly know that Teresa died and Priscilla lived. duh.
what the teresa vs priscilla debate is about, is:
whom is superior (more powerful).
it's been made quite evident over and over by many people that Teresa is superior to Priscilla. But, the debate does rage on, as the other side still believes Priscilla is superior. the never ending debate, laughs. it comes up with nearly every new chapter release.
Awakened Priscilla is indeed incredibly powerful. current top being in Claymore world. this is undisputed, with possible exceptions of the Destroyer and maybe Clare.
but, let's not forget that Teresa at 10% yoki bested 70-79% yoki Claymore priscilla.
however, when priscilla hit 80% or more yoki, Teresa at 10% was too weak.
however, in looking at the yoki % amounts, we can affirm 2 things, defirm another thing, and debate about yet another thing.
1. 100% yoki Awakened Teresa would annihilate 100% yoki Awakened Priscilla with total ease.
2. 10% yoki (Claymore) Teresa can NOT "win" (defeat/beat) against 80-100% yoki and Awakened priscilla
Awakened 100% yoki Priscilla couldn't be beaten by teresa.
can an under 80% yoki (NON-awakened or Claymore) Teresa beat a 80-100% yoki Awakened Priscilla or not?
my opinion, based on the discrepency of the yoki levels of 10% teresa and 70-79% priscilla, tells me clearly that teresa would easily be able to defeat 80-100% yoki priscilla without even getting near 80% yoki of her own,
AND on the fact that 0% Teresa had no trouble dealing already with an Awakened former rank 1 Claymore, Rosemary. This shows me, that Claymore Teresa can even deal with the extra power and abilities that an awakened gets.
Albiet, clearly 80% or more CLaymore-Awakened Priscilla (she's in this weird transitional period of about to awaken, but it hasn't started just yet), requiring Teresa to use more then 10% yoki, is FAR more powerful then awakened Rosemary, whom Teresa could have defeated with NO yoki release. she only released 10% against rosemary for "practice" and/or "fun", because this was one of the very few times she could, due to worrying about the Organization's watchful eye and wanting to keep her GODLY power a secret from them.
Yes, based on these two things, I feel Claymore Teresa well before she even gets near 80% yoki, can easily beat not only an 80-100% yoki Priscilla, but also all the extra power and abilities that come from being awakened that Priscilla has. Yes, Awakened Priscilla has her regenerative abilities, but Teresa would just take her head off, which usually results in death, as seen/mentioned over and over again in the Claymore manga. For examples: Ophelia after having her neck twisted told the female AB that it should have decapitated her. The AFs/AEs have instantaneous regeneration, yet when their heads are destroyed, they die.
using simplistic math, if anyone is interested:
10% teresa > ~80% priscilla (actually it's 70-79%, but using 80 to make it easy)
teresa is between 7 and 8 times MORE powerful then Priscilla
so, now we find out how much yoki teresa would need against 100% yoki priscilla
Teresa would only need to have 13% or 15% yoki released (+3% or +5% more then her 10% yoki release) to be slightly more powerful then Priscilla at 100% yoki. obviously being slightly more powerful, isn't good enough to actually win or defeat/beat another. you have to be a good bit, more powerful, than less of a % point greater, lol. So Teresa would actually ahve to be like at least 20% yoki released to actually defeat/beat 100% yoki released Priscilla.
now let's add some more % points as Priscilla is awakened, because awakened greatly enhances the being's power and they get extra abilities. HOWEVER, i doubt it would mean Teresa needs her yoki to be anywhere near 80% to deal with Awakened Priscilla. Maybe 50% at the very max. though more likely 30% as the max.
about what makes one an Abyssal One (AO):
What we know about Abyssal Ones:
1. they are merely awakened rank 1 Claymores, as opposed to awakened rank 2-47 Claymores, which are called Awakened Beings (ABs).
2. only 3 officially have been named as AOs. Isley, Riful, and Luciela.
3. Rubel tells Rafaela, that Awakened Luciela will be labeled as the 3rd AO, to make up the 3 AOs, and the "4th" being the Organization with their rank 1 Claymore (which the next one will be Rosemary) as the 4 (or 5) factions/"super powers"/"kingdoms" on the Island. Isley in the north. Riful in the west. the Organization in the east. (unrecognized) the humans ("neutral") in the center. And now, with Luciela in the south. This makes a nice balance and stalemate among the 4 (or 5) factions on the island. Rubel tells Rafaela, that the AOs, especially Luciela, is NOT to be engaged with at this point.
Based on this, I feel Abyssal Ones truly are merely Awakened rank 1 Claymores.
*there's many good reasons/explanations why the Organization hasn't offically named more AOs, which if requested I can provide.
so this brings us to:
the rank 1 Claymores:
(in power, as ranks don't mean that much, which i can explain as well if requested to):
Isley, Riful, Luciela, Rafaela, Rosemary, Teresa, Priscilla, Alicia, Beth, and Miata.
the awakened rank 1 CLaymores:
Isley, Riful, Luciela, Rafaela, Rosemary, Priscilla, Alicia, and Beth
the only rank 1 Claymores, whom haven't awakened:
Teresa and Miata
(i have a personal theory that Teresa actually did awaken and de-awaken, keeping her human mind. Becoming the true/full potential/"endgame" Half Awaken, but won't go into it within this post. this does nicely help explain why/how Teresa was the most powerful of all)
personally, I call all the Awakened rank 1 Claymores as AOs. Of course these AOs differ in how powerful they are, just as they differed in power as Claymores. I mean, look at rank 1 Teresa and rank 1 Priscilla vs all the other rank 1's, Isley, Riful, Luciela, Rosemary, Alicia, and Beth. Clearly there's a big difference in power among these rank 1's as Claymores and/or as Awakeneds.
but, yes, OFFICIALLY, there's only the "unholy 3" AOs: Isley, Riful, and Luciela.
Last edited by HegemonKhan; February 04, 2010 at 08:27 PM.
Now, to make that relevant, let's say that Raphaela, Isley, Luciela, and Riful had merged. Surely the merged creature resulting from four abyssal class beings would dwarf Theresa or Priscilla. The ultimate potential of what can occur doesn't really matter here, as one could always come up with a scenario that results in a greater being than the current "boss." Instead, we, and the author, have to rely on the reasonable level of access, which the characters routinely display, to what is possible in order to evaluate them.
Now then, I'm sure we can agree that Theresa and Priscilla have virtually limitless levels of youki circulating in their bodies. At the time Priscilla fought Theresa, the former could not access this power in a meaningful way, even at 80% release. That is why Teresa overwhelmed Priscilla in their fight (before Priscilla went berserk, Irena assured Priscilla that their initial bout was the beginning, not the end. As claymores, they could begin to match one another over time. However, as has been repeatedly pointed out to me by some of Theresa's proponents, that is a moot point. They fought when they fought, and Priscilla was outclassed at the time). Now, as an awakened being, Priscilla has unlimited access to her limitless youki. Teresa, as a claymore, would be the one lagging behind, if she were alive (again, moot point).
In your post, you fail to address what I brought up in my post: Theresa's ultimate level of access to her limitless youki. Because she has never been forced to fight at 30% or more, she doesn't know how. For Theresa to even reach 30%, she would have undergo a similar level of emotional stress that Clare did when the latter awakened her limbs in Pieta. As a detached, rational warrior, Theresa could never succumb to surges of youki release. Against an opponent of a certain level, Theresa would die before this requisite emotional strain could occur. Her literal limit, regardless of her potential, was 10% of her youki. Again, we can agree that Priscilla and Theresa both have limitless youki. However, what caused Priscilla to lose her initial fight with Theresa is the exact same thing that would cause Theresa to lose against the awakened Priscilla: not potential itself, but level of access to that potential.
I'm sure that Priscilla and Theresa would be evenly matched if they were both awakened beings. Each of their full youki potentials was immeasurable. However, having both characters fight one another at their full potential is just a masturbatory exercise of one's imagination. Yagi specifically chose to avoid such a scenario by having Priscilla fight Theresa before the former was ready and having Priscilla awaken only after Theresa was already dead. As many like to repeatedly point out, this is not DBZ, it is not Bleach, etc.
talked, the org had no reliable claymores that could challenge an abyssal one (even after Raphaela rejoined the ranks, the org wanted to avoid using Raphaela against the abyssal ones for as long as possible) and he made no mention of any individuals being groomed to be/were promoted to number one, or even the rank itself. While the territories were essentially divided into four, the east/org was worried about "unnecessary conflicts." That's why they would choose their new role as observers. They would not adopt a different role until Isley invaded the south and the soul link was completed, even if Theresa, Priscilla, and Raphaela were abyssal class.
Again, Rosemary was not, and most likely cannot be, verified as abyssal class, and again, you are not addressing my points. If you can create a proof that Rosemary was a abyssal class, despite what I argued above, then do so. Relying on arbitrary ranks and then arbitrarily inserting an individual into a certain classification of claymores/abs is not a proof.
yikes... a lot to try to respond to... sighs... debates like this get really long really quickly... but i got to try to defend/explain myself now... sighs...
1. alright, my analogy/example of using that train of thought with micheal jordan wasn't a very good choice, as you greatly pointed out. but, its point (MJ is still MJ, one of the greatest basketball players ever, this can't be changed or denied) is still valid.
so, instead of a poor analogy, i'll jsut tell what my point is, lol.... much easier then trying to come up with an analogy that doesn't have a trillion holes and issues with it lol.
my point i was trying to make is that teresa is teresa, regardless of her allowing an opening for priscilla to get a cheap undeserved kill, a FAR CRY from beating teresa by ability/power/superiority/dominance/supremacy/prowesss/performence, teresa is the greatest/most powerful being ever in the Claymore world, with the possibility of ONLY being surpassed by the protagonist, Clare.
(Though at this moment in chapter 100 with priscilla pwning clare, she seems weak all over again, and far away from reaching teresa's power/supremacy. which is funny, because right until priscilla battled her, Clare was quite bad-bottom. cruelly pwning Agatha, and then defeated the hellcats, and posititioning Deneve and Helen so that they aren't hit by the huge projectiles)
10% Teresa over-powered 70-79% Priscilla. Teresa IS more powerful then Priscilla by 7 or 8 times, and considering we are talking about Priscilla... no one can even imagine something being 7 or 8 times more powerful then chapter 100 awakened priscilla, and yet, Teresa was that something. Maybe it is a very good thing we never seen teresa beyond 10% yoki, laughs.
Priscilla either was too fast/quick at 80% yoki or more while teresa remained at 10% yoki foolishly not raising it, or Teresa simply wasn't paying attention/cautious/wary/focused/on guard, and got decapitated. neither of these, have anything to do with the power/superiority of Teresa vs Priscilla.
heck, if chuck liddel or whatever UFC champion had their guard down and wasn't paying attention, i could even knock them out! obviously, i'm not better or more powerful then him or whomever, just as priscilla is not better or more powerful then Teresa.
since you brought up logic.....
if Teresa is 7 or 8 times more powerful then priscilla, then teresa remains 7 or 8 times more powerful then priscilla whatever her yoki amount is. priscilla at 100% yoki doesn't magically erase teresa's being 7 or 8 times more powerful then her like you seem to want in order to make your view correct. 100% yoki teresa will still be 7 or 8 times more powerful then 100% priscilla, just as 10% yoki teresa was powerful then 70% or ~80% (actually 70-79%) yoki priscilla, which is where the 7 or 8 times greater in power then priscilla comes from. And surely, you aren't denouncing that 10% teresa knocked 70-79% Priscilla on her bottom, as this is right in the manga picture and dialogue itself.
2. Teresa sure sounds like she knows about yoki levels beyond 10% and awakening quite intimately. While Teresa having awakened and retained her human mind, might be a bit extreme, i still believe in it as a possibility of a personaly theory of mine. But, you saying that teresa has never gone over 10% doesn't match up with how specifically teresa is expertly/authoratively lecturing amature or "rookie" priscilla bout the yoki plateaus and awakening....
and if you want to point out that Teresa had never gone past 10% and thus can't release more yoki.... SO TOO FOR PRISCILLA. Priscilla NEVER released any yoki, so by your train of thought/reasoning, it would be impossible for Priscilla as well to use yoki. Yet, Priscilla does uses yoki, a lot of yoki, at least 80% yoki. How could she have done this when she had never used yoki before? Well, sorry to say, but soo too can Teresa use more yoki then just 10%, just as priscilla was able to. Teresa just never got around to raising her yoki beyond 10% due to a number of irrelevant interfering factors which resulted in Teresa getting beheaded.
3. Rubel essential said some of that, some of it i added in merely from what happens later in the manga, and some of my own additions/commentary as well.
4. The Organization is for the most part QUITE GOOD AT RANKING THE CLAYMORES. For the most part their rankings represent their power. ranked 1 claymores ARE #1 in power. rank 4 ophelia WAS weaker to rank 2 Irene and probably rank 3 Galatea as well. Deneve (rank 15 or 19) and Helen (rank 22) are weaker then rank 6 Miria. So rank 1 Rosemary would "equal" rank 1 Isley, Riful, Luciela, Alicia, and Beth to name a few. i am using quotation marks, because they do have a wide range of power, but we really only see that in Teresa+Priscilla vs the rest of the rank 1's and possibly Isley vs Riful+Luciela. Alicia vs Riful was pretty equal. so, rosemary must be also ~ equal, excluding the 3 (Teresa, Priscilla, and ~Isley) whom are a bit (isley) or a lot lot lot (Teresa and priscilla) more powerful then the rest of the rank 1's.
Miria confirms this partially. according to miria, the difference between rank 1-6 is exponential. rank 5 is vastly more powerful then her at rank 6. rank 4 is vastly more powerful then rank 5. rank 3 is vastly more powerful than rank 4. etc etc. Whereas ranks 6-9, ~10-19, ~20-30, ~30-47 are nearly equal or not much difference in power level to each other within their grouping. There's not too much difference between rank 6 miria and rank 8 flora or rank 9 jean. but between rank 6 and a normal rank 5 (Rafaela is not a normal rank 5, just as clare is not a normal rank 47), is a vast difference in power. Rank 5 is on a totally different level of power vs a rank 6. rank 4 is on a vastly different level of power then rank 5. etc etc
if i fought against chuck liddel, and he kicked my bottom 3-5 times out of 3-5 times, he is better/more powerful/superior to me without question.
same with Teresa and priscilla. Teresa kicked priscilla's bottom ~3-5 times out of ~3-5 times, Teresa is superior/more pwoerful/better then priscilla without question.... i wish... lol....
Last edited by HegemonKhan; February 04, 2010 at 10:48 PM.
In the history of claymores, Theresa clearly experiences the greatest increase in power during her release. Using that as the basis for every argument you make in favor of Theresa's superiority is silly. It is highly likely that her 10% release is fairly close to a 10% effort from whatever her awakened form would have turned out to be. That is, because her release is so powerful, there is not as much of a disconnect between 10% of her potential and 10% of her release. I imagine a similar "limitation" applies to Galatea, who had the greatest release of her generation. While Priscilla had released to 80% in her fight against Theresa, in retrospect, that 80% was nowhere near a 5% effort from the awakened Priscilla that is roaming around the western territory. If her 30% release as a claymore was anywhere near a 10% effort from her awakened form, she would have overwhelmed Theresa's 10% release. Priscilla simply did not know what she was doing when she fought Theresa and the strength of her release as a claymore has little to no bearing on her strength as an awakened being or how Theresa's 10% release would stack up against the awakened Priscilla.
Before she went berserk, Priscilla had only released between 10% and 30%. This was her personal limit when ranks 2-5 were fighting as a group. When Priscilla released beyond 10-30% to 80%/awakened, she was overcome with passion. Under these circumstances, one's "personal limits" vanish. Quite honestly, this becoming berserk is not something we could expect from Theresa. The limit of her hatred was shown when she slaughtered the bandits. Of course, we don't know what level of release Theresa ultimately used when clearing the bandits (we saw her release 10%, kill the leader, and then saw all the bandits running for their lives. The manga then cut to her at 0% and surrounded by bloodied corpses). While she may have only released to 10%, Theresa had reached a point of passion that would have allowed her to transcend 10%. Given what we know about Theresa's personality, this could only be repeated if someone were threatening Clare. However, Clare was never in any real danger during Priscilla's furious attack against Theresa. Because of this fact, the necessary conditions, for Theresa to transcend her personal limit, were not satisfied. To this date, Priscilla has not tried to kill Clare.
p.s. Please don't use the tilde in your posts. My primarily reliance upon it has been for logic, which means I read your tildes as negations, when you are using it in another capacity.
Last edited by kaliayev; February 05, 2010 at 12:32 AM.
since clair is stronger then pricilla and is going to kill pricilla, and she is only 25% of teresa, then teresa is stronger then both of them
As for the words she said to Rosemary, she only states that she doesn't do this a lot so if anything she would not remember how to do it and it would be a matter of mentality rather than not being able to do it at all (but it would be stupid). You're trying to forcefully find a way for Teresa to be weaker than awakened Priscilla because you can't accept that anyone could be as strong as Teresa seems to be. The second argument you used makes even less sense than the first. Because we've never seen Teresa go over 30% she can't go over 30%, lol. Going by your line of thought we could also say that because we haven't seen Yuma go over her limit she can't awaken either.
Overkill would be utterly stupid in Teresa's case. She would have to use lots of youki and come closer to awakening (and we know that she wanted to spend her days with Clare as a daughter not a piece of meat) and it would be a waste of effort since the outcome of the fight would be the same. For the same reason Priscilla didn't take her awakened form when she was fighting Alicia/Beth/Riful. That would be unnecessary and a waste of energy and since she was very hungry and there weren't much food in vicinity it would be stupid of her to do it. But does anyone say that she can't awaken? Yeah, we've seen her awakened form but it was 7 years ago, maybe she forgot how to change like Teresa? lol
In addition, Teresa's own words indicate that she knows a bit about her limits: "We all learn the limits of our youma power as we fight, releasing it bit by bit. That's beyond a beginner like you." Although I doubt she ever went beyond 50% (since she knew that after she reached that point she would be dangerously close to the point of no return and I don't see her as a psychopath that would do sth so dangerous just to amuse herself).
In case you would like to bring Clare's case into this: don't. Clare's case is completely different because she has partially awakened and different rules apply to her. Besides, it's not that she can't awaken (it's very probable that we will see her awakened form and she will go back to her human form thanks to soul-link), she doesn't want to (subconsciously). Either Teresa's/Rafaela's memories made her aware of the mistake she's making at the moment or her rebellious character refuses to obey the monster insde her. She's fought it many times and always won and now the youma inside her doesn't stand a chance. So unless she completely subjects herself to monster's will she won't awaken.
That's of course only speculation on my part (and the idea about becoming immune to the youma wasn't mine but Cyclone's and Aimless' from animesuki) but the fact remains that Clare is half-awakened (according to Miria already awakened) and Teresa was not. Soon enough we will know whether Clare can't awaken or not and what was the cause of her deawakening.
Last but not least, awakenings are like bankais in Bleach, they're the part of this world and make Claymore more interesting. If any claymore could not awaken that would be against the rules Yagi has established and it would be incoherent. Since we haven't seen any claymore that can't awaken (although Clare couldn't in 100th chapter she could at the beginning of the manga and in Pieta and she could muster a lot more than 30% of youki since she was in queen of blades mode) so saying that Teresa couldn't is like saying that Cynthia/Yuma/Tabitha can't either. Your argument is no argument but a completely baseless speculation.
Last edited by Goral; February 05, 2010 at 08:31 AM. Reason: deleting some stuff
0. my use of the ~ means/represents: appromately, about, around, roughly, or maybe/partially/somewhat.
1. we have a different take on yoki and power levels. which is the main reason of our differences in this regard, i believe, besides me favoring Teresa and i presume you favoring priscilla?
this is how i've decided to make sense of it:
yoki=merely energy (technically it is yoma/monster energy). ranges from 0-100% for all beings. we humans have/use energy too in real life as well as the humans in Claymore. same thing in range. 0-100%.
yoma power=power (and power level) of a being (with yoma flesh).
so, in keeping this in this very simple form, this "potential or latent" (mainly in regards to priscilla, and her vs teresa debate) stuff that many other people, talk about or use, doesn't mean anything to me. I merely see this potential or latent stuff merely as their potential, their level of ability/power/performance in the future or ultimately. Yes, clearly Priscilla had the 2nd greatest potential or latent abilities (as she has reached them). But, Teresa had the greatest potential or latent abilities, but clearly we never see her reach or use them, as she gets decapitated while having never given us a look at her when using more then 10% of her yoki.
anyways, this my my take on trying to make sense of yoki and power levels for myself. I think that this difference in how we understand yoki and power levels, is one of the main things that leads us to have very different opinions about Teresa vs Priscilla.
here's a mathematical look at how I understand yoki and power levels in Claymore:
(starting or natural power) x (yoki release) x (Multiplier) = yoma power (their final power level)
*starting or natural power CAN be increased through training/growth. it is not constant. (technically starting or natural power would be: starting or natural power + improvement in power through training/growth)
*I also entertain a theory of my own that ONLY a being with a human mind (Claymore or Half Awaken or human) can improve their power through training/growth. Awakened beings, whom have a yoma mind, such as Rigardo, Isley, and Priscilla can NOT improve their power. They are stuck with the power they had upon their Awakening. Support for this theory: If yoma-minded beings can improve and get more powerful, then Isley being the oldest of all beings (excluding the Organization staff), would be even more godly/powerful then Teresa or Priscilla. Which clearly is NOT the case. This is what makes Half Awakens so special. They got the powers of an awakened and retain their human minds, which allows them to improve through training just like the other Claymore Ghosts, and we have seen ALL the Ghosts both the HAs (Miria, Deneve, Helen, and Clare) and the Claymores (Cynthia, Tabatha, and Yuma) become greatly more powerful from their "Ghost Training".
*Multiplier is the unique ability with yoki that Galatea mentions about and uses against Dauf. Galatea to Dauf: ~"My rate at which my power rises is the greatest of all the Claymores. You'll have to deal with my ugly face for a bit. (translated Claymore manga)." Presumably this multiplier is different for all the Claymores, and Galatea's is the greatest. HOWEVER, there is NO info/mention of the multiplier amounts of other Claymores, nor specifically what it is for Galetea. So it remains pretty ambigious, with all we know is that Galatea has the largest/greatest multiplier.
here's some examples (amounts are entirely made up):
Clarice (assumed as weakest Claymore, an actual rank 47, unlike Clare):
(1) x (10%) x (1) = 10 yoma power
Audrey (rank 3):
(100) x (10%) x (1) = 1,000 yoma power
Galatea (rank 3):
(100) x (10%) x (10) = 10,000 yoma power
Irene (rank 2):
(10,000) x (10%) x (1) = 100,000 yoma power
Alicia (rank 1):
(100,000) x (10%) x (1) = 1,000,000 yoma power
Priscilla ("rank 2", beyond a rank 1):
(1,000,000) x (10%) x (1) = 10,000,000 yoma power
(1,000,000) x (100%) x (1) = 100,000,000 yoma power
Teresa ("rank 1", beyond a rank 1):
(7,000,000) x (10%) x (1) = 70,000,000 yoma power
(8,000,000) x (10%) x (1) = 80,000,000 yoma power
(7,000,000) x (100%) x (1) = 700,000,000 yoma power
(8,000,000) x (100%) x (1) = 800,000,000 yoma power
Last edited by HegemonKhan; February 05, 2010 at 03:59 AM.