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Thread: Bleach in HD ?

  1. #16
    Registered User 初心者/ Shoshinsha / Beginner dissentniisama's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach in HD ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebird View Post
    To be more clear, look at this:
    Bleach screenshot
    Real FHD anime screenshot

    The difference is oblivious.
    Not disputing the difference in quality, but it's not fair to compare a broadcast capture to a Blu-ray one. Especially considering the broadcast shot hasn't been spatially corrected (Bleach isn't 4:3 - whether it's broadcast anamorphic or that's the fault of capper, I don't know, but to be accurate it needs to be horizontally stretched back to 1920x1080) and retains interlace artifacting - i.e. those horizontal lines around Renji's mouth and eyes. You'd need a capture of K-ON! from the broadcast to compare (if K-ON! was indeed HV according to TVA's standards; if we want to go with a straight comparison, do 720p Bleach to 720p Toaru Kagaku no Railgun, as that one was listed on that chart as HV). Blu-ray - or DVD, for those series aired before HD migration - always trumps broadcast quality.

    EDIT: According to http://gorry.haun.org/pw/?20090401_tvaformat, K-ON! was SD up during broadcast.

    So compare broadcast to broadcast (or even just with Bleach, that would be comparing the 480p RAWs to the 720p ones, or only the quality of the fansub encodes if you have no use for the RAWs). Only compare broadcast to disc media if it's the same series.

    On that shot there is ringing around Renji's outline, but it'd likely be pretty hard to notice from a distance - the main issue is that it's blurrier.
    Last edited by dissentniisama; February 16, 2010 at 10:18 PM.

  2. #17
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    Re: Bleach in HD ?

    Quote Quote:
    Not disputing the difference in quality, but it's not fair to compare a broadcast capture to a Blu-ray one.
    I compared visual difference between upscale and Real HD, not blu-ray vs broadcast quality.
    Quote Quote:
    Bleach isn't 4:3 - whether it's broadcast anamorphic or that's the fault of capper, I don't know, but to be accurate it needs to be horizontally stretched back to 1920x1080
    it's broadcast anamorphic. That's a screenshot from transport streem.
    Quote Quote:
    retains interlace artifacting
    Wrong. It's artifact from upscaling 720x480i to 1440x1080i.

  3. #18
    Registered User 初心者/ Shoshinsha / Beginner dissentniisama's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach in HD ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebird View Post
    I compared visual difference between upscale and Real HD, not blu-ray vs broadcast quality.
    That K-ON! screenshot was from Blu-ray, Bleach was not. So regardless, you were comparing Blu-ray to broadcast. This is about what the difference looks like as it would be from a TV station (the difference between the 'SD field up' and 'HV' designations on that page; Blu-ray quality > HV quality, which means it's not representative of what that page is talking about).

    The only time that it is fair to compare broadcast to Blu-ray - or broadcast to DVD - is when talking about the same series, because it shows how much better the version on disc looks. Since Bleach isn't available on Blu-ray, to be fair it should at least be a broadcasted version of a series that's properly HD to contrast with.

    Quote Quote:
    it's broadcast anamorphic. That's a screenshot from transport streem.
    Fair enough.

    Quote Quote:
    Wrong. It's artifact from upscaling 720x480i to 1440x1080i.
    Ok, then what specific kind of artifact is it? Saying it's a 480i->1080i artifact says nothing about what it is, only what was done before it appeared. If I drop my monitor down to 16-bit color (Highcolor), artifacts in the form of large patches of mismatched color appear; these aren't '24-bit->16-bit artifacts', they're 'gradation and/or banding', and they appear because there isn't enough variety of colors (65,536 in 16-bit vs. 16,777,216 in 24-bit) and vibrancy/bit depth to represent them accurately in 16-bit/Highcolor mode.

    Interlacing artifacts typically only appear on parts of the image that move - in anime, frames often have large static areas, while the mouths and other smaller areas move, and would be subject to this effect. Those aren't present on most of the rest of the image (such as the blade of the sword and the stuff in the background), the parts that probably were static. This is an example of interlacing artifacts; in Renji's case, since it was probably his mouth/head and hand that were moving, and only very slightly, the problem is contained to just those spots, possibly because - if the stream had been deinterlaced when that screenshot was captured, it was a bad field match and would show regardless of whether the video had been turned back into progressive frames.

    If it was simply from resizing, then you could downscale it to a smaller size, and then upscale it again and the artifacts would reappear, as any scaling operation would create them. But they don't (I just tried using Lanczos4, Bicubic, and Bilinear resize methods), which means whatever is causing them is not coming from the scaling part of the operation. The comparison image from Ina Koi! I posted earlier exhibits the same kinds of artifacts if I leave out the field matching/deinterlacing step (and it still can't get rid of it all, so even after that step some traces of the interlacing remain). In said video, the entire frame is zooming in, so almost everything is moving, and thus almost every part of the image shows the artifacting.

  4. #19
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member TemplateR's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach in HD ?

    Well it wasn´t my goal to make a discussion about "generally HD", becaus my question was about " Is actuall Bleach episodes in HD or not ".

    But we can discuss about "Bleach in HD" generally, if its good or not.

  5. #20
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    Re: Bleach in HD ?

    Quote Quote:
    This is an example of interlacing artifacts
    Oh, i know about that... You are not the only one encoder there

    Like i said, it's not an interlacing. Let me explain.
    Their source is 480p. They upscale it to 1080i, but their decoder thinks, that their source is interlaced (don't ask me why, i don't know) and separate fields. Than it upscale 720x240 to 1440x540 and combine fields back, to 1440x1080@30i.

    You can achieve this artefact by doing this in avisynth on 30p:

    SeparateFields
    Resize to 1440,540
    AssumeFieldBased()
    Weave()
    Last edited by Firebird; February 17, 2010 at 10:32 AM.

  6. #21
    Registered User 初心者/ Shoshinsha / Beginner dissentniisama's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach in HD ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebird View Post
    Like i said, it's not an interlacing. Let me explain.
    Their source is 480p. They upscale it to 1080i, but their decoder thinks, that their source is interlaced (don't ask me why, i don't know) and separate fields. Than it upscale 720x240 to 1440x540 and combine fields back, to 1440x1080@30i.

    You can achieve this artefact by doing this in avisynth on 30p:

    SeparateFields
    Resize to 1440,540
    AssumeFieldBased()
    Weave()
    That still leaves the stream as interlaced, though. The artifact is caused by the interlacing process inherent there. It's just that they've put in interlacing where there was none. I wasn't saying anything different than that. Unless what's wrong here is that we're each defining 'interlacing artifact' differently.

    If we do go with that page's terminology, they do differentiate 'SD up' (like Naruto), vs. 'SD field up' (like Bleach). That would seem to tell me that 'SD up' is where they deal with a 480p source, scaling progressively and then putting interlacing on the final 1080p to make it 1080i, vs. whatever the heck 'SD field up' is, which I assume is taking 480i, separating the actual fields, blowing it up, and then combining them again. Is it virtually the same result in the end? Probably. But they (the tvaformat Wiki pages) feel it's important enough to make a distinction. Either way, it is still interlaced.

  7. #22
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    Re: Bleach in HD ?

    Okay, okay, you win I've just said that it's not a usual telecine, it can't be deinterlaced and etc.
    I think we should stop offtopic here

  8. #23
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member hajialibaig's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach in HD ?

    Yup, and back to the original poster's question: Bleach is not HD

  9. #24
    News Writer 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Zeltrax's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach in HD ?

    then the 720p videos found on the net are upscaled by others?
    so bleach is only avaliable in 480p?

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