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Thread: Where did Kakashi go wrong with his students?

  1. #31
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Richo's Avatar
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    Re: Where did Kakashi go wrong with his students?

    Naruto always did suck at chakra control, the perfect example of this is that he still has to use a clone to create his rasengan wich costs him quite some chakra. The seal applied to naruto was to prevent the kyuubi chakra from mixing with his own, kakashi didnt notice nor did ebisu for that matter. Also there are only a few pple capable of releasing the seal and I doubt kakashi was even capable of doing so. Jirayia only discovered this because he knows ALOT of sealing jutsu, he is familair with the sealing used on naruto and noticed there was something added to it wich is only shown when naruto is actualy melding chakra.


    To go back onto kakashi topic....
    Kakashi is a very inexperienced teacher and did the quite good considering the team setup, naruto a total failure at the start of the series, sasuke a genius bent on avenging his clan and killing his brother (also we have to consider the current cannon). Sakura wich was in love wich sasuke not showing her full potential at any time beside her already known advanced control of chakra.
    Kakashi was always treated bad because he was son of the white fang, he lost his master and lost precious team members quite a few times. Team 7 was his first genin team he had, before we can reasonably asume he was part of anbu group and probably a captain there where he worked with proffesionals and not genins after barely graduating.
    There are also quite some difficulties concerning Naruto, since the 3th hokage forbade anyone mentioning anything about the nine tails and naruto in the same sentence. It restricted kakashi from utilising naruto his full potential, he probably was not even allowed to teach naruto anything about it. Jirayia just didn't care about it and taught naruto all about it.

    All in all I cannot see where kakashi did such a poor job, he did everything he could to educate his pupils.

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    Re: Where did Kakashi go wrong with his students?

    I think that Kakashi did show a little favouritism in Sasuke. It is almost like he didn't have the patience to deal with Naruto, because he sent him off to Ebisu to learn the basics.

    Where he failed imo is his neglect of Sakura. Sasuke and Naruto have learned a lot from Kakashi. In fact, Kakashi helped to invent their fighting styles. With Naruto he gave him futon ransengan, and he gave sasuke the chidori, his most used jutsu. He developed both of them very well. He however contributed almost nothing to Sakura.

    I think his failure with sasuke was not his fault. His approach to it is perfectly summed up with the seal he used to surround the cursed seal. He let Sasuke decide what he wanted himself, and only supported him to make the choice. He did not direct the choice. His seal required sasuke's own willpower, and he trusted in his student to have enough.

    He even taught sasuke and co about how deserting your friends makes you more than trash, hoping sasuke would man up and decide that his friends were more important than revenge. He knew sasuke would probably not do it for Konoha, but maybe for friends...

    Unfortunately Sasuke just didn't bond with his team enough. I think it his character flaw rather than Kakashi. From the start kakashi rammed teamwork in to them. Play as a team, support the team, don't leave team mates behind. Sasuke was just a mopey prick. On top of that, he was full of jealousy against naruto for beating Gaara. Kakashi taught him the chidori to keep him happy, but it wasn't enough.
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  4. #33
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member Thekid90's Avatar
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    Re: Where did Kakashi go wrong with his students?

    Quote Originally Posted by CTG05 View Post
    Well in Kakashi's defense I think what he ment was that he and Sasuke had a similar fighting style, and they both had an affinity for lightning. And even though it is a dangerous jutsu to teach someone Sasuke's age, he wouldn't have been able to challenge Gaara in the Chunin exams without it. None of Sasuke's jutsus up to that point would've pierced through that ball of sand he was in.

    Despite of the shortcomings already stated it was inevitable that Sasuke would turn down this path. Sasuke's whole point of existence from part 1 was revenge, and even during his fight with Gaara during Oro's invasion (which was his without a doubt when his moral compass was pointing the straightest) it was Gaara's taunting his hatred that made him stronger.

    Now as for Sakura and Naruto however, Kakashi could have done a lot more. He was the first to notice Sakura's talent for genjutsu. He really should've nurtured that ability more instead of focusing on keeping Sasuke's head straight. If he had she probably would've been at Kurenai's level of genjutsu by now. Sure she could never compete with a sharingan user but to everyone else she would be a force to be reckoned with.

    And he could've spent more time with Naruto teaching him the essentials of being a ninja and get him to refine his taijutsu style more. That way Jiraiya wouldn't have had to to spend those two and half years teaching him that stuff and spent more time on controlling the kyubi. In the end it's just a shame that the only student he did a good job of teaching was hell bent on revenge before he even became a ninja.

    edit: On second thought Naruto should've learned that shit in the god damn ninja academy. Jesus Kishi it's one thing to make your protagonist stupid and optimistic, but at least make him good at his craft.
    Note: I'm loving this thread already and I agree with everyone.

    I love Kakashi but...I was always irked at how he handled these things. I feel like Kakashi was more of a role model of a ninja then a good sensei, because like someone said earlier, Yamato would have made a better sensei, lmao! So true...

    Although, the reason why Naruto didn't learn all that shit in the academy was because he wanted attention. Come on, FINALLY being in the same room with kids his age without them running away/ignoring him, he took the opportunity to be a jokester than to learn. Thats why when he was ALONE, then he trained himself...but it was by himself so he didn't really learn much. We saw this through Hinata's stalker walks.

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  6. #34
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: Where did Kakashi go wrong with his students?

    Kakashi didn't show favoritism. Sasuke was more like Kakashi, and having Sharingan, he could teach Sasuke how to utilize it better for beating Itachi. Quite simply put, Kakashi was the best teacher/teacher most suited for Sasuke at the time. The only one with SHaringan who could relate to Sasuke the most. Does anyone know another Sharingan user who could relate to Sasuke, push him off his path of revenge?

    Plus, did Jiraiya not meet up with Kakashi before the final Chuunin exams and say he'll take Naruto under his tutelage for while? This could be in part to Kakashi not training Naruto; Jiraiya was the one that offered to train him. Not to mention, Akatsuki was hunting for Naruto and Kakashi wouldn't have been able to handle them as well as Jiraiya.

    Whenever Kakashi could, he tried to teach all three of his students, but circumstances made it hard to do so. I don't think Kakashi should be blamed for Sasuke going evil. Kakashi even made Sasuke forget about revenge and wanting to pound Naruto into a pulp after the fight at the hospital. It was Orochimaru and him trying to make Sasuke weaker to seek him out that led Sasuke to become evil and desert the village. Why? Because he wanted more power to kill Itachi.

    To be honest, I would prefer to have Kakashi as a sensei. He's pretty honest and blunt, and intelligent. If Sasuke fell, it wasn't Kakashi's fault, as he couldn't curb Sasuke's lust for power and revenge despite being able to relate with him.

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  8. #35
    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Weapon_X's Avatar
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    Re: Where did Kakashi go wrong with his students?

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    Kakashi didn't show favoritism. Sasuke was more like Kakashi, and having Sharingan, he could teach Sasuke how to utilize it better for beating Itachi. Quite simply put, Kakashi was the best teacher/teacher most suited for Sasuke at the time. The only one with SHaringan who could relate to Sasuke the most. Does anyone know another Sharingan user who could relate to Sasuke, push him off his path of revenge?

    Plus, did Jiraiya not meet up with Kakashi before the final Chuunin exams and say he'll take Naruto under his tutelage for while? This could be in part to Kakashi not training Naruto; Jiraiya was the one that offered to train him. Not to mention, Akatsuki was hunting for Naruto and Kakashi wouldn't have been able to handle them as well as Jiraiya.

    Whenever Kakashi could, he tried to teach all three of his students, but circumstances made it hard to do so. I don't think Kakashi should be blamed for Sasuke going evil. Kakashi even made Sasuke forget about revenge and wanting to pound Naruto into a pulp after the fight at the hospital. It was Orochimaru and him trying to make Sasuke weaker to seek him out that led Sasuke to become evil and desert the village. Why? Because he wanted more power to kill Itachi.

    To be honest, I would prefer to have Kakashi as a sensei. He's pretty honest and blunt, and intelligent. If Sasuke fell, it wasn't Kakashi's fault, as he couldn't curb Sasuke's lust for power and revenge despite being able to relate with him.
    What? He left Sakura on the side and concentrated on Sasuke. He didn't teach jack shit to Sakura, he underestimated Sakura's potential, he had to "lie" to her that things would get back to normal, he was hiding the true reality from her while deep down, she knew that things wouldn't get back to normal. He treated her like a child when he should have treated her like an adult. Throwing happy faces around isn't going to get Kakashi anywhere...

    And of course it was Kakashi's fault that Sasuke chose the wrong side. A 1 minute speech isn't going to change anyone, look how much trouble and effort Orochimaru went through to get Sasuke, he achieved his goal. Oro's influence bested that of Kakashi's 1 minute Speech no Jutsu. As a teacher he should have tried harder, and here, he overestimated Sasuke in thinking that Sasuke is a grown up, he knows what's right and what's wrong and eventually he will choose the right side, but that never happened.

    Even canon says Kakashi blames things on himself for the downfall of Team 7. You gotta take his own word for it.
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  9. #36
    The Green Knight MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Gats's Avatar
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    Re: Where did Kakashi go wrong with his students?

    Quote Originally Posted by Weapon_X View Post
    What? He left Sakura on the side and concentrated on Sasuke. He didn't teach jack shit to Sakura, he underestimated Sakura's potential, he had to "lie" to her that things would get back to normal, he was hiding the true reality from her while deep down, she knew that things wouldn't get back to normal. He treated her like a child when he should have treated her like an adult. Throwing happy faces around isn't going to get Kakashi anywhere...

    And of course it was Kakashi's fault that Sasuke chose the wrong side. A 1 minute speech isn't going to change anyone, look how much trouble and effort Orochimaru went through to get Sasuke, he achieved his goal. Oro's influence bested that of Kakashi's 1 minute Speech no Jutsu. As a teacher he should have tried harder, and here, he overestimated Sasuke in thinking that Sasuke is a grown up, he knows what's right and what's wrong and eventually he will choose the right side, but that never happened.

    Even canon says Kakashi blames things on himself for the downfall of Team 7. You gotta take his own word for it.
    You forget the timing. The time he focused on Sasuke's training was during the Chuunin exam. Sasuke had to fight for the final test while Sakura failed before...So it's obvious that Kakashi didn't care about Sakura's training during this time. Even more what Kakashi saw about Garaa. After this Kakashi was very busy with the whole Konoha rebuilding and Itachi's matter after the Sand and Sound's strike.

    About the speech, Kakashi didn't know that the 4 sound was there, this was his real error, not his speech. Because Sasuke was supposed to think about it and Kakashi would come back later. Actually, Sasuke was really thinking about it but the 4 Sound just came at this moment to confuse him, so it's possible that without them he would stay long enough in Konoha to change his mind about his revenge. Remember that Orochimaru wanted him fast because he needed a new body but also because he stated that Naruto had a big influence on him (remember his discussion with Kabuto). It's all about the timing actually.

    BUT I agree that Kakashi made really a very poor speech when he met Sasuke again in Shippuden. What the hell is that ?! -_-'

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    Re: Where did Kakashi go wrong with his students?

    Realistically, Sasuke was going to search out for Oro in the same way Sakura went for Tsunade and Naruto latched onto Jiraiya. These are still children and when you have a child hell bent on revenge and you give that child two paths to go down, to follow a teacher that is suggesting you forget it or to follow someone that is going to encourage it, they go with the person that encourages it.

    The simple fact is that Kakashi was never meant to be the sole teacher of his team, no team leader is. He did as good of a job he could do in terms of training the basics and guiding them.
    Last edited by Lord Abortion; April 11, 2010 at 07:40 PM.

  11. #38
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Lelo's Avatar
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    Re: Where did Kakashi go wrong with his students?

    he was always reading Jiraya's books, thats why

  12. #39
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    Re: Where did Kakashi go wrong with his students?

    Quote Originally Posted by Weapon_X View Post
    What? He left Sakura on the side and concentrated on Sasuke. He didn't teach jack shit to Sakura, he underestimated Sakura's potential, he had to "lie" to her that things would get back to normal, he was hiding the true reality from her while deep down, she knew that things wouldn't get back to normal. He treated her like a child when he should have treated her like an adult. Throwing happy faces around isn't going to get Kakashi anywhere...
    He taught what he could at the time. At the beginning, he taught all three about teamwork, and during Zabuza arc, he taught all three how to control their chakra better. After that, they were put in chuunin exams. And do we really know he just left Sakura when tons of parts were skipped during that time?
    He lied, but he probably also thought things would get better. He was hiding the true reality because it wasn't completely real yet until he saw Sasuke try to chidori her brains out.

    Quote Quote:
    And of course it was Kakashi's fault that Sasuke chose the wrong side. A 1 minute speech isn't going to change anyone, look how much trouble and effort Orochimaru went through to get Sasuke, he achieved his goal. Oro's influence bested that of Kakashi's 1 minute Speech no Jutsu. As a teacher he should have tried harder, and here, he overestimated Sasuke in thinking that Sasuke is a grown up, he knows what's right and what's wrong and eventually he will choose the right side, but that never happened.

    Even canon says Kakashi blames things on himself for the downfall of Team 7. You gotta take his own word for it.
    But he was hoping to talk to Sasuke later on; he just wanted to say enough to give Sasuke more time to think. Only reason that backfired was because Sound 4 attacked Sasuke and made him look weak. Oro's influence worked because he appealed to what Sasuke wanted; Kakashi was against what Sasuke wanted, and Sasuke didn't totally agree with that. Sasuke has tremendous pride, which was repetitively getting crushed, by Naruto showing great power, by Gaara, and by Sound 4. It's Sasuke's arrogance that played a big part in his defection.
    Kakashi tried his best to reduce Sasuke's arrogance and make him rely less on the Cursed Seal, in form of chidori, but Orochimaru put his color on Sasuke, and eventually over Naruto's color.

    Kakashi does say that, but that is his own point of view. Did Kakashi play a part in Sasuke's defection and Sakura not being the kunoichi she should be? Yes, but apart from Sakura's potential, Kakashi's not to be entirely blamed. Sasuke wouldn't have gone down the dark path had he not have encountered Orochimaru.

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    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Delbi's Avatar
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    Re: Where did Kakashi go wrong with his students?

    Much of the blame can't be put on the Kakashi for the things that happened to his three students. Naruto, Sasuke, and Sakura are also very much to blame. However, Kakashi is not guilt free.

    I'll start with Sasuke since he's the easiest.

    Sasuke: Kid was totally obssessed with revenge that it clouded his judgement in every day activies. He betrayed the village he swore to protect and basically joined hands with the Devil. Kakashi was willing to teach him anything and yet he went to Orochimaru. His arrogance was his downfall, and his inability to listen to those around him also hurt him in the long run.

    Naruto: Allowed himself to be immature and would never listen to his superiors. His lack of actual talent for much of Part 1 made training him near impossible. Not to mention, his rivalry with Sasuke in which he started created a hostility between the two of them.

    Sakura: Obssessed with Sasuke and nothing else. Took the near death of several of her comardes for her to realize it was time to get her shit together. Never focused on outside training like Sasuke and Naruto.
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    Re: Where did Kakashi go wrong with his students?

    OK. A lot of people say that Kakashi did not show favoritism to Sasuke, some people say that he showed a little. I invite you to look at the dictionary definition of the word: "American English: favoritism: If you accuse someone of favoritism, you disapprove of them because they unfairly help or favor one person or group much more than another".
    After reading that, I invite you to decide if what Kakashi did is indeed showing favoritism.

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    Re: Where did Kakashi go wrong with his students?

    Kakashi showed favouritism but that's OK. It isn't a bad thing. Each and EVERYONE of us do it ALL THE TIME no matter how subtle or how plenty.

    As a Teacher, showing favour for a particular student is your prerogative and perfectly acceptable provided you fulfil your duty to the rest of your students.

    It may be frowned-upon (especially by the students left out), but there's nothing they can legally do to prevent you so long as you do your Job.

    Kakashi's job was to lead team 10 and provide them with fundamental knowledge through real experience and help better their basic skills.

    Granted he did an awful with Naruto who needed it the most (due to the BEAST messing up his chakra) but fortunately, Naruto found Jiraiya on time, a more suitable trainer.

    Sakura was neglected more as she found the suitable Master for her at the end of part 1.

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    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted sarutobi_sensei's Avatar
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    Re: Where did Kakashi go wrong with his students?

    To me the only thing that he did wrong was not taking care of Naruto until he was 12. That's probably the biggest mistake he did. Being more helpful to Sasuke and teaching him more things was because he felt a connection to him because of revenge and Uchiha stuff.

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    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: Where did Kakashi go wrong with his students?

    Quote Originally Posted by sarutobi_sensei View Post
    To me the only thing that he did wrong was not taking care of Naruto until he was 12. That's probably the biggest mistake he did. Being more helpful to Sasuke and teaching him more things was because he felt a connection to him because of revenge and Uchiha stuff.
    Kakashi focused more on Sasuke because of how similar they were, which means they could relate to each other better. But I think the most important reason why Sasuke was placed under Kakashi was due to Sharingan, as Kakashi was the remaining Sharingan user in Konoha who could help Sasuke master his in order to beat Itachi.


    I have seen no proof that Kakashi showed favoritism, but he did show some bias when he chastised Jiraiya for teaching Naruto the rasengan despite teaching Sasuke chidori. Funnily, Naruto was 0% likely to use it against comrades and people he cares about, while Sasuke was at least 5% likely to use it on Naruto. Though, I guess Kakashi didn't expect Itachi to return, or Sasuke to get so jealous

  19. #45
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
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    Re: Where did Kakashi go wrong with his students?

    One thing that I wish I could use as a discussion piece here would be Iruka's comment about Kakashi in the very beginning of the series. Kakashi had never passed a single student; he failed all of them. In some light. this might suggest that some of Kakashi's fellow jounin / instructors could have had previous students that they'd passed and trained. But at this point in the manga, it seems as though it's pretty cemented that once you have a team, that's the only team you instruct, so trying to say that Kakashi has less experience or that it was his 'first time' wouldn't really be much of an excuse.

    In the end, things happened the way they did for the sake of the story, and all of the analysis is relatively lost in a world where the focus is hardly on the ethics of gender equality, fairness, or the logic and reason behind maturation. Personifying the characters into such depths isn't really a fair thing to do if that analysis is then going to be used to judge the character as he is meant to be presented in the story itself, when the story is not reflective of those things.

    In the story, Kakashi failed because he couldn't save his friends. Likewise, he failed because he wasn't able to "save" Sasuke from the path he's thus far led. He didn't adequately prepare Naruto or Sakura for dealing with this schism, either. As far as Naruto's training and Sakura's complete lack of attention, those things were never and likely will never be directly addressed in the manga as an issue, and I sincerely doubt that Kakahi's regret is meant to include those two things. Naruto competed with Sasuke, but Kakashi's attention toward him was never a particular issue for Naruto. Sakura has never voiced her concern that Kakashi didn't give her the training she required.

    They're truths, as we look at the scope of the story in the context of the real world, yes. But in the Naruto world, those things are overlooked and were not the innate source of the situations that each character is currently in.

    I accept it for what it is. These are fun discussions, but I really just can't help but scoff whenever these sorts of discussions are applied to the context of the story itself, which is written particularly without care for these sorts of ethical dilemmas on purpose. It's not a fair comparison to make. But then again, who am I to tell someone to suspend their world view for the sake of the setting?
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