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Thread: Berserk 312 Discussion

  1. #46
    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity llamapie's Avatar
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    Re: Berserk 312 Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by SparkHunter13 View Post
    No way. Berserk is a manga and should remain as such, in my opinion. Imagery is a major aspect of Miura's work, and the story would ultimately be less cohesive if told across multiple mediums.


    Most of the manga listed above simply cannot compare to Berserk on any level, be it artistry, depth in story or characters or whatever. And how you can speak of stagnation after the worldwide upheaval that was volume 34 is beyond me. Berserk is ever-changing and constantly evolving, which seems to be in fact many fans' chief complaint: "Where did all these monsters come from? I liked it better when Guts had companions. Why has Miura given Guts new companions? Why did Miura have to introduce magic to the series? I don't like Guts' new armour," etc, etc. Or maybe they just complain for complaint's sake, who knows?

    Your gripe is with the release rate, and I can sympathise. But I'd rather wait patiently, assured that the next release will meet the standard set by past episodes, than clamour for more frequent releases that would inevitably result in a half-baked rush job (e.g. Bleach).
    Indeed.

    When something takes 20 years to only reach 312 chapters, yet still has enough people reading it for miura to be loaded you must conclude it is something beyond special.
    Last edited by xi0; March 27, 2010 at 09:57 PM.
    Give the best manga of all time some attention!

    # of "Miura will die before Berserk is finished" comments(since Nov. 1st 2008): 100

  2. #47
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member mcd693's Avatar
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    Re: Berserk 312 Discussion

    Quote Quote:
    Your gripe is with the release rate, and I can sympathise. But I'd rather wait patiently, assured that the next release will meet the standard set by past episodes, than clamour for more frequent releases that would inevitably result in a half-baked rush job (e.g. Bleach).
    @SparkHunter13- not everyone is as patient as you are.

    Chapter 312- like everyone else has said --> really good chapter filled with suspense and a new land filled with things unknown which we still cannot predict to be friend or foe for our heroes. I would also like to touch on the humour that has been dominating a lot of the slides as of late. Does anyone else see the shift from dark to light recently? (in regards to humour and overall vibe)

  3. #48
    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity llamapie's Avatar
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    Re: Berserk 312 Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by mcd295 View Post
    @SparkHunter13- not everyone is as patient as you are.

    Chapter 312- like everyone else has said --> really good chapter filled with suspense and a new land filled with things unknown which we still cannot predict to be friend or foe for our heroes. I would also like to touch on the humour that has been dominating a lot of the slides as of late. Does anyone else see the shift from dark to light recently? (in regards to humour and overall vibe)
    Yes but Spark is right. This manga is not intended for kids in any manner of the word. Kids lack a general patience that is required to truly appreciate this manga for what it is.

    Fact is if berserk were released weekly then the quality would take a major hit, there is no doubt there.
    Give the best manga of all time some attention!

    # of "Miura will die before Berserk is finished" comments(since Nov. 1st 2008): 100

  4. #49
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member SparkHunter13's Avatar
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    Re: Berserk 312 Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by mcd295 View Post
    I would also like to touch on the humour that has been dominating a lot of the slides as of late. Does anyone else see the shift from dark to light recently? (in regards to humour and overall vibe)
    Somewhat, yeah... You might argue that the tone has lightened since Magnifico's joining in around volume 30 (on Guts' side, at least)—or more precisely, since they boarded the boat to Elfhelm two volumes later. Character expressions in particular are noticeably more cartoonish in humourous situations; it's definitely not something we saw often in, say, the Golden Age arc, where the tone was deadly serious by comparison.

    That said, I think the overall vibe reflects the group's brighter mood and ease in each other's company. It's largely down to Guts, though, as he gradually views his followers more as companions than convenient annoyances (if you know what I mean), which in turn makes for a lot less friction in party interactions.

    Quote Originally Posted by llamapie View Post
    Yes but Spark is right. This manga is not intended for kids in any manner of the word. Kids lack a general patience that is required to truly appreciate this manga for what it is. [...] Fact is if berserk were released weekly then the quality would take a major hit, there is no doubt there.
    Thank you. We'd all like more frequent releases—no doubt about that—but at the expense of quality? Count me out.

    The only thing I'd really wish for is more consistent releases; so, instead of gorging ourselves on 3 or 4 episodes at a time before a 10-week hiatus, we'd have the same number of episodes spread evenly across the same period, allowing us to discuss each individual release more thoroughly.

    ... Yeah, I'm probably alone in that... Honestly, though, what does it matter? We'd only have the same number of episodes at year's end, anyway, so things might as well remain as they are.

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  6. #50
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member mcd693's Avatar
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    Re: Berserk 312 Discussion

    @SparkHunter13-
    Spoiler: God of War 3 spoilers show


    -->I just wanted to show some simularities between the game and the manga
    Last edited by xi0; April 01, 2010 at 02:00 AM.

  7. #51
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member SparkHunter13's Avatar
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    Re: Berserk 312 Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by mcd295 View Post
    I'll even admit that i don't mind the shift in a lighter tone and mood as of late. Being nice to people really humanizes his character. [...] Humanizing the main character establishes a mean baseline for the reader so that if and when anything happens to said character you feel sympathy.
    Maybe I'm stating the obvious here, but the whole situation mirrors Guts' experience with the Hawks quite closely. Initially, he was wary and distrustful of others due to past betrayals. But over time, he gradually came to accept those who first accepted him. In short, the Hawks' friendship brought Guts out of his shell, and his character developed immensely throughout the Golden Age as a result.

    Now, compare the Guts of today with the man of the Lost Children chapter, where Farnese and Serpico were first introduced—the difference is like night and day. Say what you will about the new guys; Guts has benefited greatly from their company, both on and off the battlefield.

  8. #52
    Registered User 初心者/ Shoshinsha / Beginner Jaina's Avatar
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    Re: Berserk 312 Discussion

    I agree with you Spark, but you kind of missed my point.

    Berserk is maybe feeling less stagnant and more shallow to me of late. With the duality of following what is going on with Griffith and Guts and all the "new" characters, I feel like no one is going to get sufficient face time. What I meant by other media is that I would like for at least meaningless things to get put into other media and approved by Miura. At least then I might be able to get some background on the new characters, and leave the important events up to the manga, heck it wouldn't even have to be completely text, a spinoff manga directed by Miura would be fine with me as long as they didn't touch any of the main plot.

    The pace which Berserk moves at is mind-boggling. I've only been caught up on the manga for about a year now, but had always intended to read it after watching the anime like 10 years ago. If you consider recent events, we have just seen maybe a month unfold in Berserk in the span of roughly 3 years to tell the story. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm thinking that is a roughly accurate estimate.

    Shallow and certainly certainly less beautiful though those stories may be (the Shounen titles I listed) I get far more "goosebumpy" moments from those series. Granted, Berserk's amazing moments reach greater heights, if a main character aside from Guts or Caska were to die off in the next chapter I don't think I would feel all that sad. Compared to other manga of late, where that did happen to side characters and I was nearly moved to tears, I think Miura's characters need more chapters to get us (or at least me) to care about them more.

  9. #53
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member SparkHunter13's Avatar
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    BEWARE! NEEDLESSLY VERBOSE AND POTENTIALLY INCOMPREHENSIBLE RANT AHEAD!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaina View Post
    Berserk is maybe feeling less stagnant and more shallow to me of late. With the duality of following what is going on with Griffith and Guts and all the "new" characters, I feel like no one is going to get sufficient face time.
    I'm surprised you'd say that, as these opposing storylines have existed since Guts and Griffith's meeting at the Hill of Swords in volume 22. And neither side has suffered a lack of attention from Miura, in my opinion, nor has he let his characters go undeveloped. Farnese, for example, has probably undergone the most remarkable change, but even Guts is now more relaxed and approachable than he was, as I mentioned earlier.

    On the flip side, we've come to learn that apostles are capable of compassion (amongst other things), particularly the commanding officers, Grunbeld, Irvine and Locus. I would have thought such notions as restraint, honour, kindness alien to the apostles around the time of Eclipse; to discover that not all were base, sadistic animals was a welcome reveal.

    In fact, Miura has implemented this duality very well. He continuously builds both sides before having their paths intersect in a climactic series of events—their encounters at Flora's mansion and Vritannis, for instance (and yes, though Guts and Griffith didn't meet face-to-face, their paths did coincide). The fates of both sides and their characters are so intricately bound... "shallow" is not a word I'd use to describe this, or indeed any aspect of Berserk.

    With respect, the reason(s) you give for your current dislike are, honestly, insubstantial. Were Miura inhumanly capable of releasing to his present standard on a weekly basis, you'd have not a single complant, I'd wager.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaina View Post
    What I meant by other media is that I would like for at least meaningless things to get put into other media and approved by Miura. At least then I might be able to get some background on the new characters, and leave the important events up to the manga, heck it wouldn't even have to be completely text, a spinoff manga directed by Miura would be fine with me as long as they didn't touch any of the main plot.
    If it's meaningless, why bother? Why risk releasing background information that may eventually prove restrictive to that or another character's development in the future? It just seems so pointless and unnecessary, doubly so when s/he is of little imporrtance.

    If a character's past is of any significance, you can be sure that Miura will reveal it at the appropriate time. Besides, the obscurity of a character's origin and their motivations can sometimes benefit their role. One of Skull Knight's most appealing traits is the general aura of ambiguity that surrounds him and his intentions. Were the mystery of it all dispelled in a side-story or somesuch before Berserk's conclusion, would the fans continue to be so intrigued by him? Granted, I chose the obvious example in Skully's past, one which Miura would never detail outside of the main story, but it could have a similarly damaging effect on any character.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaina View Post
    Shallow and certainly certainly less beautiful though those stories may be (the Shounen titles I listed) I get far more "goosebumpy" moments from those series. Granted, Berserk's amazing moments reach greater heights
    Exactly. Need I say more?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaina View Post
    if a main character aside from Guts or Caska were to die off in the next chapter I don't think I would feel all that sad. Compared to other manga of late, where that did happen to side characters and I was nearly moved to tears, I think Miura's characters need more chapters to get us (or at least me) to care about them more.
    You know, I don't disagree completely with that last sentence—hence the reason I'd like for Miura to expand Isidro and Schierke's relationship. However, that feeling doesn't apply to all supporting characters; I adore Farnese, and would be greatly saddened were she—or Serpico, for that matter—written out of the story.

    See, the problem is that the events of the Eclipse and the joyous time beforehand are still fresh in our minds, and we can't help but feel the new cast are replacements for the Hawks to which we are so emotionally tied. It's difficult to accept those we perceive as "filling the gap", but is more face-time really the solution?

    I think the reason the Hawks are so dear is that they were crucial to Guts' (and Caska's) development as a character. Even Corkus had a greater effect in Guts' shaping than many people realise. Once Caska recovers, I think the progress of all Guts' companions will become more deeply intertwined, augmenting their value to us in turn. At least, I hope so, and the potential Guts, Caska and Farnese triangle (square, including Serpico) may well prove as equally dramatic as that involving Griffith in the Golden Age.

    When you consider the events of the past few volumes and the possibilities inherent in the near future, you begin to realise that this is a very exciting time in the Berserk narrative. My only concern is that "near future" will take years (in reality) to unfold.

    /rant

  10. #54
    Registered User 初心者/ Shoshinsha / Beginner Jaina's Avatar
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    Re: Berserk 312 Discussion

    Quote Quote:
    /rant
    LOL, I don't view your responses as a rant Spark. It is nice to have a good back and forth where both sides address the points the other makes.

    I did think it was neat having the apostles expanded upon. I didn't think they had the capacity for even ambiguous traits like honor either. However, I still feel like we know so little about all of Guts' current companions. I will certainly concede your point though about the possibility of limiting the scope of some characters because of a meaningless back story. What I meant by meaningless though is more like a one-shot where two characters go off on their own for a chapter and do things which have little to do with the main arc.

    I will also have to concede that if Miura were to release more regularly I would be mostly satisfied. His increasingly erratic release pattern does worry me though. I remember watching an interview with him on one of the Berserk anime DVDs where he said his goal with Berserk is to make it run for as long as possible. Which gives me the feeling that he is simply trying to string things out little by little rather than truly move things. My other concern is that given the length of time he has dedicated to this manga he might pass away before its completion, The Wheel of Time series springs to mind when I think of this.

    As for what I meant by shallow, I simply mean from the point of view of character development. You can read what you will into the panels, but we still know virtually nothing about many of the characters aside from how they tend to interact with Guts.

    I don't know, maybe I just need to take the time and reread the whole series again to tide me over lol.

  11. #55
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member SparkHunter13's Avatar
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    Re: Berserk 312 Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaina View Post
    However, I still feel like we know so little about all of Guts' current companions.
    We know as much about Guts' companions as we could reasonably expect, to be honest.

    Schierke was first introduced on the outskirts of her home, before we met the person who raised and trained her in the arts—that's her background sorted. As for her biological parents, we don't know their identities; then again, we're not aware of Guts' mother and father either, and that hasn't hindered his development as a character.

    Isidro has revealed his past and motivations in snippets here and there. And two back-to-back episodes were dedicated to Farnese and Serpico's adolescence in volume 22—that's more than was given to Caska's backstory in the Golden Age, if I recall correctly. Others, too, have received similar treatment when Miura thought it appropriate, but even Judeau, Corkus, Rickert and Pippin weren't gifted with flashbacks; did you think those characters shallow and in need of attention?

    The bottom line is: Guts and Griffith (perhaps Caska, too) are the primary focus of Berserk; the rest are frankly secondary. That's not to say they're insignificant, but Miura would be mistaken to dwell overlong on a character's history that bears no relevance to the plot, themes or events at hand. Simply put, redundancy should be avoided; show only what is necessary at any given time.

    Bleach often delves into minor characters' pasts, which only later proves pointless, as that person, their actions, their history has no relevance or lasting effect on the overall story. So remember, while the past may serve as a basis for their personality, it's their actions in the present that affect the story and determine their character, and is thus far more important.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaina View Post
    I will certainly concede your point though about the possibility of limiting the scope of some characters because of a meaningless back story. What I meant by meaningless though is more like a one-shot where two characters go off on their own for a chapter and do things which have little to do with the main arc.
    ... You seem to change your meaning with every post... Either that, or I misinterpreted. Again.

    So, what you'd like is a digression from the central plot involving two minor characters? Are you sure? Because I doubt those constantly screaming for plot advancement would appreciate that... And what purpose would it ultimately serve, anyway?

    Out of curiosity, on which two characters would you want Miura to concentrate? And, er... why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaina View Post
    His increasingly erratic release pattern does worry me though. I remember watching an interview with him on one of the Berserk anime DVDs where he said his goal with Berserk is to make it run for as long as possible.
    This is that interview: Part [1], [2] & [3].

    Nowhere within does Miura claim that Berserk will continue indefinitely. Although, he does cite Guin Saga—a series of 100+ novels that continued until the author's death last year, thus leaving it unconcluded—as a major inspiration.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaina View Post
    My other concern is that given the length of time he has dedicated to this manga he might pass away before its completion, The Wheel of Time series springs to mind when I think of this.
    We can only hope that he'll finish his masterpiece before then. However, in his response to [SK.net's letter], Miura says that Berserk is roughly two thirds complete. From this, we can infer that he has at least some semblance of an ending in mind. And given his penchant for meticulous planning, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the "scaffolding" for the story's remainder is already laid out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaina View Post
    As for what I meant by shallow, I simply mean from the point of view of character development. You can read what you will into the panels, but we still know virtually nothing about many of the characters aside from how they tend to interact with Guts.
    If you truly believe that, then you simply haven't been paying attention.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaina View Post
    I don't know, maybe I just need to take the time and reread the whole series again to tide me over lol.
    That'd be advisable.

  12. #56
    Registered User 初心者/ Shoshinsha / Beginner Jaina's Avatar
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    Re: Berserk 312 Discussion

    Quote Quote:
    We can only hope that he'll finish his masterpiece before then. However, in his response to [SK.net's letter], Miura says that Berserk is roughly two thirds complete. From this, we can infer that he has at least some semblance of an ending in mind. And given his penchant for meticulous planning, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the "scaffolding" for the story's remainder is already laid out.
    I was not aware of this, that is really awesome. I am glad to know that he has a goal in mind, I sometimes feel like he doesn't have his stories planned out ahead of time. Actually, that may have been my biggest concern, just that there would be no conclusion.

    Quote Quote:
    Schierke was first introduced on the outskirts of her home, before we met the person who raised and trained her in the arts—that's her background sorted. As for her biological parents, we don't know their identities; then again, we're not aware of Guts' mother and father either, and that hasn't hindered his development as a character.
    True, but I like to be able to imagine what a character's reaction might be to different environments. Maybe it is just that I am used to characters that are far less complicated in my manga and so this exercise is more easily accomplished with "lesser" works.

    One minor point, you know a little about his mother in at least how it is that she died. However, I don't need to know about a character's family because honestly in most manga I read the other main characters typically overshadow any blood relations in importance to that character. As far as character development, the manga has followed Guts' whole life I would be really surprised if Miura left out any important event in his life up to this point.

    Quote Quote:
    ... You seem to change your meaning with every post... Either that, or I misinterpreted. Again.

    So, what you'd like is a digression from the central plot involving two minor characters? Are you sure? Because I doubt those constantly screaming for plot advancement would appreciate that... And what purpose would it ultimately serve, anyway?

    Out of curiosity, on which two characters would you want Miura to concentrate? And, er... why?
    I only meant that I didn't consider your point about writing the characters into a corner, and I think it was a very good point to make. What I meant and have meant is that it would be nice if there were a separate Berserk manga (a "spin-off" series) released say quarterly or something that consisted of one-shot stories. This maybe relates more to what I said in my first paragraph, wanting to see the characters in different situations.

    As for preference for pairings, that is a good question. I think I like your Isidoro and Schierke pairing, as this last issue illustrated there is a lot of comic potential to be had there. Other pairings might be like Griffith and Zodd, simply because I think the dynamic is interesting I sometimes feel like Zodd would kill Griffith if given the opportunity and other times I feel like he completely respects him. I would also like to see Sonia and Locus (or am I thinking of Irvine...), but I think the story will find its way to this on its own in time. I think a one-shot of Guts and Azan (I think its Azan, the knight with the quarterstaff with Guts' team) would also be fun to witness, just the general destruction involved.

    Somewhat related, I always regret that Judeau never got any back story he was always my favorite in the Band of the Hawk's side characters.

    Quote Quote:
    Nowhere within does Miura claim that Berserk will continue indefinitely. Although, he does cite Guin Saga—a series of 100+ novels that continued until the author's death last year, thus leaving it unconcluded—as a major inspiration.
    I did not say his goal was to run indefinitely, but he does state that he would like to hold the record for longest running series.

    Anyways, after all of this conversing I realized I really should reread the series. My memory is too fuzzy on too many points, my main point is simply that I want more Berserk and I will take it any way I can get it as long as Miura at least approves of the work (I hate whatever forces did not allow the new anime to come to light).


    Random:

    And just so you don't think I'm an idiot for being fuzzy on some things here's my read/reading list of manga: Bleach, Berserk, Naruto, One Piece, Fairy Tail, Gantz, Spice and Wolf, Video Girl Ai, Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind, Rurouni Kenshin, Konjiki no Gash, Full Metal Alchemist, Claymore, Mahou Sensei Negima, No Bra, My Balls, Yu Yu Hakusho and Dragonball (with and without the Z, but not GT). And that is just Japanese comics, not counting the ten + years of monthly issues of roughly 30 + American comic books, tons of RPGs, and various novels.

  13. #57
    Registered User 初心者/ Shoshinsha / Beginner Jet_Alone's Avatar
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    Re: Berserk 312 Discussion

    Well in my opinion I think that Gutts current companions are more developed that the old ones. Even Gutts feel it, Judeau and co seemed to me as buddys, brothers in arms. While Gutts himself has described his new party as his family.
    We know more about their past and goals than we did with the hawks. I'm not saying that their are filling their gap. In fact I think they have filled different gaps, they are not substitutes, they're new companions. And to me it seems that both Schierke and Isidro mostly think of Gutts as a big brother.

    By the way I'm finally used to Berserk release timings. Before It was "shit no berserk this month again" and has developed in "great surprise, berserk" like a unexpected gift.

    What I love about berserk is how Miura takes care of every detail, he has a lot of background research to do. For example, the buildings theme, he has researched a lot of medieval architecture to inspire himself. Here some ones:

    Alcazar de Segovia as Grifith dreamed castle:


    Castillo de Coca de Ávila as Doldrey fortress:


    Iglesia de San Martin as Enoch church:


    Mezquita de Córdoba:


    And this are only the ones I know for being in my country, there are lots more and with the armor an weapons it's even better XD
    Last edited by Jet_Alone; April 11, 2010 at 12:49 PM.

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  15. #58
    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity CBlitz's Avatar
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    Re: Berserk 312 Discussion

    Idolm@ster 2 is coming out so say goodbye to Berserk everyone >__>

    at this rate, Miura won't release another chapter for another 6 months. Oh well it was nice reading this while it lasted
    Last edited by CBlitz; April 11, 2010 at 12:45 PM.

  16. #59
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member mcd693's Avatar
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    Re: Berserk 312 Discussion

    @Jet_Alone- thats amazing. This reminds me of where the character guts originated from. Even though miura has denied that Götz Von Berlichingen who, lets face it, is identical to guts and is clearly the character template.

    Despite stealing material from the past, which I really don't mind, the artistry and imitation of the real thing is still breathtaking. Thanks again to Jet_Alone for those pics. great snag.

    I looked into it a lil more and found all kinds of similarities. for anyone who's interested they can follow the link

    http://www.hondosbar.com/forum/index...pic=4301&st=45
    Last edited by mcd693; April 11, 2010 at 03:25 PM.

  17. #60
    Registered User 初心者/ Shoshinsha / Beginner Jet_Alone's Avatar
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    Re: Berserk 312 Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by mcd693 View Post
    @Jet_Alone- thats amazing. This reminds me of where the character guts originated from. Even though miura has denied that Götz Von Berlichingen who, lets face it, is identical to guts and is clearly the character template.

    Despite stealing material from the past, which I really don't mind, the artistry and imitation of the real thing is still breathtaking. Thanks again to Jet_Alone for those pics. great snag.

    I looked into it a lil more and found all kinds of similarities. for anyone who's interested they can follow the link

    http://www.hondosbar.com/forum/index...pic=4301&st=45
    That page is where I found the images XD thanks for posting it because I took the images but forgot the page thanks.

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