Berserk 312 Discussion

[xi0]

@Jet_Alone- thats amazing. This reminds me of where the character guts originated from. Even though miura has denied that Götz Von Berlichingen who, lets face it, is identical to guts and is clearly the character template.

How is Gotz identical to Guts? Aside from being a mercenary and having an iron prosthetic arm...that's where the similarities end. And Guts was really only a mercenary during the Golden Age. Sure Gotz led a rebellion against the Holy Roman Empire at one point, but then he later joined and fought under the Holy Roman Empire...so that's a very weak comparison IMO. I can't see Guts fighting for the Pope now, since the Pope is putty in Griffith's hands.

[mcd693]

Identical: similar or alike in every way EX: The two cars are identical except for their license plates. Reference: dictionary.com

Im not saying their twins... which for the purposes of the argument are not the same person but are referred to as being identical because of their obvious similarities.

-First of all Gotz is quite obviously similar to Guts in name.

-The iron prosthetic arm which you also already stated is very similar to Guts's canon arm. "His hand was ahead of its time, being capable of holding objects from a sword to a feather pen." reference: wikipedia
-->canon arm that can hold a sword

-As you mentioned they were both mercenaries which shouldn't be ignored, but another similarity is a play based on his character which fabricated the following description of the struggle of Gotz in which he is referred to as, "Götz von Berlichingen, a noble knight with an iron hand, is hated by the rich and powerful and loved by the oppressed and poor." reference: http://www.jrank.org/literature/page...n-Hand%29.html
-->This struggle could easily be construed as the epic and current struggle by Guts in his revenge against Griffith. (a little bit of a stretch but worth noting)

-"In 1525, with the outbreak of the Peasants' War, Berlichingen led the rebels in the district of Odenwald against the Ecclesiastical Princes of the Holy Roman Empire. Despite this, he was (according to his own account) not a fervent supporter of their cause. He agreed to lead the rebels partly because he had no other option, and partly in an effort to curb the excesses of the rebellion. Despite his wishes to stop wanton violence, Berlichingen found himself powerless to control the rebels and after a month of nominal leadership he deserted his command and returned to the Schloss Jagsthausen to sit out the rest of the rebellion." reference: wikipedia
-->Guts didn't support Griffith's "dream" and wanted to find his own and left the band of the hawk.

-The time in which Gotz lived is similar to the time in which Berserk takes place (c. 1480 – 23 July 1562) reference: wikipedia (the weapons and armor are similar and there is a distinct lack of technology)

Did Guts fight with Farnese as a holy warrior... i don't really recall or care to reread that section. But the fact that Miura put in aspect of a holy army shouldn't be written off as, "I can't see Guts fighting for the Pope now."

[xi0]

Identical: similar or alike in every way EX: The two cars are identical except for their license plates. Reference: dictionary.com

Im not saying their twins... which for the purposes of the argument are not the same person but are referred to as being identical because of their obvious similarities.

-First of all Gotz is quite obviously similar to Guts in name.

-The iron prosthetic arm which you also already stated is very similar to Guts's canon arm. "His hand was ahead of its time, being capable of holding objects from a sword to a feather pen." reference: wikipedia
-->canon arm that can hold a sword

-As you mentioned they were both mercenaries which shouldn't be ignored, but another similarity is a play based on his character which fabricated the following description of the struggle of Gotz in which he is referred to as, "Götz von Berlichingen, a noble knight with an iron hand, is hated by the rich and powerful and loved by the oppressed and poor." reference: http://www.jrank.org/literature/page...n-Hand%29.html
-->This struggle could easily be construed as the epic and current struggle by Guts in his revenge against Griffith. (a little bit of a stretch but worth noting)

-"In 1525, with the outbreak of the Peasants' War, Berlichingen led the rebels in the district of Odenwald against the Ecclesiastical Princes of the Holy Roman Empire. Despite this, he was (according to his own account) not a fervent supporter of their cause. He agreed to lead the rebels partly because he had no other option, and partly in an effort to curb the excesses of the rebellion. Despite his wishes to stop wanton violence, Berlichingen found himself powerless to control the rebels and after a month of nominal leadership he deserted his command and returned to the Schloss Jagsthausen to sit out the rest of the rebellion." reference: wikipedia
-->Guts didn't support Griffith's "dream" and wanted to find his own and left the band of the hawk.

-The time in which Gotz lived is similar to the time in which Berserk takes place (c. 1480 – 23 July 1562) reference: wikipedia (the weapons and armor are similar and there is a distinct lack of technology)

Did Guts fight with Farnese as a holy warrior... i don't really recall or care to reread that section. But the fact that Miura put in aspect of a holy army shouldn't be written off as, "I can't see Guts fighting for the Pope now."

I didn't mean to write that comparison off that way.

When you have a manga in which there is so much evil going on, is something like the Holy See being included as foil to this solely to draw upon the comparison of Guts to Gotz's? I don't see it that way. Miura may very well be lying about the character being based on him, but just because their is a Holy force, as well as an Evil one, doesn't mean it has something to do with the comparison to Berlichingen either.

There are several similarities, and the comparison is definitely not unwarranted, but I'm not sure if I can safely say that Berlichingen was the blueprint for Guts. If Miura says he wasn't, than I don't have any reason to doubt him...lol...I guess

[mcd693]

There are several similarities, and the comparison is definitely not unwarranted, but I'm not sure if I can safely say that Berlichingen was the blueprint for Guts. If Miura says he wasn't, than I don't have any reason to doubt him...lol...I guess

fair enough. I just find it intriguing to look deeper into things sometimes and try to piece together a deeper meaning or cause for a baseline. Albeit since Miura denies Gotz influence i may be looking into a silly coincidence and looking for something that isn't there. The "why" is what I really enjoy... I guess we'll never know unless Miura says otherwise or says something blatantly Gotz like, "kiss my ass" for instance.

"In act III of the 1773 drama by Goethe titled Götz von Berlichingen, the title character speaks the famous line "Er aber, sags ihm, er kann mich im Arsche lecken!" in reply to the Bishop of Bamberg's demand for his surrender. This is the first recorded instance of a phrase now in common use as "Leck mich am Arsch" (literally "lick me on my arse", i. e. "kiss my arse") and euphemistically called the Götz quote. Mozart wrote two canons in 1782, Leck mich im Arsch and Leck mir den Arsch fein recht schön sauber." Reference: Wikipedia

I'll admit that this has gone wildly off topic.
-->For 313 I predict that the people(not sure what to call them right now) at the restaurant are linked to the sea god. Im basing this on the jars that look like they have seaweed in them and the peculiar tavern http://view.thespectrum.net/series/b...er+312&page=12, their weird get up http://view.thespectrum.net/series/b...er+312&page=11, and them leaving once being discovered. http://view.thespectrum.net/series/b...er+312&page=12

Shrieke says something that will prolly end up being important later. She says that the sea monster(not god) is shrinking. So this is is either because its related to the sea god who feels that the monster has proven its usefulness and is no longer needed or that the sea god has been slowly killing it for the purpose of protecting the island... Or perhaps the sea monster is part of the sea god and the sea god has been stalking the group for some time. http://view.thespectrum.net/series/b...er+312&page=18 this would give reason for the sea god to believe ishidiro http://view.thespectrum.net/series/b...er+312&page=18 also why the sea god instantly recognized shrieke http://view.thespectrum.net/series/b...er+312&page=20 She instantly knew what type of monster it was and what its specialty was. http://view.thespectrum.net/series/b...ter+312&page=2 What i found unusual was that she referred to it as a god. I think that this either relates to my, "its part of her/does her bidding theory" or she was trying to gain the trust of Ishidiro(perceived enemy threat distills new uknown acquaintance thereby dropping his guard and *cough* staring at her mosquito bite boobs enabling a false sense of calm) Perhaps her intentions are good... I have a weird feeling that they are but its a weird tactic(getting a youth to ogle over you[sea god]) to enter the group. If I had to choose a specific theory i'd say that the sea monster was created or contracted by the sea god to protect the island from all potential threats. Guts and his crew killed the monster and made it to the island... The sea god jammed out with the sea monster and got info on Guts and co. so as to prepare to determine if they are friend or foe. This would also make sense for why she seems so GENUINELY interested in what Ishidiro has to say. Its likely that while she will be digging to see what Shrieke's intentions are, Shrieke will be doing the same next chapter.

[Spartacus]

Is this manga worth the read?
I don't want to waste my time...
should I focus on the anime? or the manga?

[xi0]

Is this manga worth the read?
I don't want to waste my time...
should I focus on the anime? or the manga?

I would recommend it to anyone who's into Epic Fantasy stories. However, when you catch up prepare to deal with many hiatuses. I think the chapters we do get in a year far outweighs the breaks we have to deal with, but some voice their displeasure more than myself. I've learned to live with it.

But it is one of the best plot-driven series out there, if not the best.

[SparkHunter13]

Sorry to interrupt the flow of discussion, guys, I'll be brief with my response to Jaina.

Actually, no... I, er, won't.

I am glad to know that he has a goal in mind, I sometimes feel like he doesn't have his stories planned out ahead of time.

What the- okay, now I know you're trolling me... A plot so intricately interwoven as Berserk's could not exist without extensive planning. Miura doesn't spend all those breaks relaxing at the beach, you know; he works pretty much around the clock—and it shows, both visually and in his writing.

How often was the Eclipse foreshadowed before the Hawks met their end? Surely I don't need to cite the various intances at which this happened... Even the planes' merging was indicated maybe as early as volume 13, which can only suggest a meticulous, well-structured plot.

I only meant that I didn't consider your point about writing the characters into a corner, and I think it was a very good point to make. What I meant and have meant is that it would be nice if there were a separate Berserk manga (a "spin-off" series) released say quarterly or something that consisted of one-shot stories.

Well, personally, I'd be against the project for previously stated reasons. Miura would have to write and illustrate it for there to be any kind of authenticity in the portrayal of its characters. Otherwise, he'd be under no obligation to have them act in the same manner under similar circumstances in his central work. What's worst is, this side-project would unavoidably distract Miura from Berserk itself—something we could do without.

I'm just repeating myself here, so let me round this off. Once Berserk is complete, maybe then you'll have your spin-off. At present, I think it'd be too revealing, time-consuming and potentially restrictive, as I mentioned earlier.

I always regret that Judeau never got any back story he was always my favorite in the Band of the Hawk's side characters.

Hey, I regret that the Hawks had to die (Who doesn't, right?), but they had their role to play in the story. We know a bit about Judeau's beginnings, but his pre-Hawks history i/was largely irrelevant to the overarching plot. An exploration into his past would've amounted to little more than fan service.

I did not say his goal was to run indefinitely, but he does state that he would like to hold the record for longest running series.

"Indefinitely" just means "without definite end", not "forever". Miura clearly has a goal he's working towards, but yeah, poor choice of words on my part.

Still, he has no desire to hold the record for longest-running series—he says that was the ambition of Kaoru Kurimoto, the author of the Guin Saga novels.

(I hate whatever forces did not allow the new anime to come to light).

I'm fairly certain that was a hoax.

And just so you don't think I'm an idiot for being fuzzy on some things [...]

I don't think you're an idiot... much. I'm kidding, we just seem to be diametrically opposed in our opinions. You say Berserk is stagnant, I say not; you say Berserk is shallow, I say not; you say Berserk is unplanned, I say not, and so on. Although I'd be lying if I said your viewpoints didn't baffle me. Plus, you never reference the manga to underpin your statements, so I'm left wondering from where these ideas stem.

I don't know... maybe I struck a raw nerve with my harsh judgment of Bleach, because you seem to have overlooked—or, and no offense, failed to comprehend—Berserk's many subtleties.

Well in my opinion I think that Gutts current companions are more developed that the old ones. Even Gutts feel it, Judeau and co seemed to me as buddys, brothers in arms. While Gutts himself has described his new party as his family.
We know more about their past and goals than we did with the hawks. I'm not saying that their are filling their gap. In fact I think they have filled different gaps, they are not substitutes, they're new companions. And to me it seems that both Schierke and Isidro mostly think of Gutts as a big brother.

They "fill gaps" in the sense that they've become Guts' close companions, friends that he can rely upon. The Hawks' deaths left a gaping void in that department and whether you perceive it this way or not, Schierke, Farnese, Serpico and Isidro have, to some extent, been introduced to fill that void.

In many ways, they are replacements, but I'm not trying to cheapen them or their contribution to the story, just so you know.

---

Edit: I've reread my replies in this thread and I sound like some know-it-all arsehole. Apologies if I anyone was insulted, but I wanted to be forceful in my opinion. If you feel I'm mistaken or flat-out wrong about anything, don't hesitate to call me out.

[Gats]

should I focus on the anime? or the manga?

The anime just shows the hero's past, there isn't any anime in production besides this. So you have to read the manga.

[llamapie]

Identical: similar or alike in every way EX: The two cars are identical except for their license plates. Reference: dictionary.com

Im not saying their twins...

Generally I stop reading posts when such simple and avoidable mistakes are made, usually debunks everything in my eyes. But not trying to be mean, I basically saw your entire point in that one sentence anyways.

I noticed a lot of you are making comparisons on these characters. Of course there are ideas taken from everywhere but there is no doubting Miura's originality either. The core characters to berserk are extremely deep and developed, the art is amazing and honestly the story is immense and hard to see an end.

---

The anime just shows the hero's past, there isn't any anime in production besides this. So you have to read the manga.

Ya I actually started with the anime myself, and was like "there has to be more to this!" So I checked out the manga and was blown away.

---

I would recommend it to anyone who's into Epic Fantasy stories. However, when you catch up prepare to deal with many hiatuses. I think the chapters we do get in a year far outweighs the breaks we have to deal with, but some voice their displeasure more than myself. I've learned to live with it.

But it is one of the best plot-driven series out there, if not the best.

Aside from the plot it is the most detailed manga I have ever seen and its simply a pleasure every time I read it.

[xi0]

Aside from the plot it is the most detailed manga I have ever seen and its simply a pleasure every time I read it.

I think the plot is pretty detailed!

But no, I get your point. The art can overshadow everything else, and the infrequent releases also hurts it's cause. But it's certainly up there with the most plot-oriented series.

[llamapie]

I think the plot is pretty detailed!

But no, I get your point. The art can overshadow everything else, and the infrequent releases also hurts it's cause. But it's certainly up there with the most plot-oriented series.

Ya the plot really hooks you early on, it is pretty damn unique. Its a nice change from shonen manga. Its cool when the hero actually kills people.

[devilitachi]

Ya the plot really hooks you early on, it is pretty damn unique. Its a nice change from shonen manga. Its cool when the hero actually kills people.

I stop reading someone's post after they make such obvious and easy mistakes. Sigh :P

[llamapie]

I stop reading someone's post after they make such obvious and easy mistakes. Sigh :P

Misspelling a word from another language is not = misspelling "they're".

I expect this to be deleted.

[Uruner]

Even trough this part of manga is preaty interesting, i definitly prefered the times when Guts was young... It was a lot better in my opinion... more belivable and less "i can put there anything that comes to my mind so whatever" kind of fealing... I mean there were certain rules... and now you just don't know what to expect... and anything can happen... I just don't like that there are no boundaries... it makes it like.... you can't identify yourself with one of characters anymore...

[llamapie]

Even trough this part of manga is preaty interesting, i definitly prefered the times when Guts was young... It was a lot better in my opinion... more belivable and less "i can put there anything that comes to my mind so whatever" kind of fealing... I mean there were certain rules... and now you just don't know what to expect... and anything can happen... I just don't like that there are no boundaries... it makes it like.... you can't identify yourself with one of characters anymore...

Well it may seem like its been a long time since we've had character developing chapters, time wise yes, chapter wise not at all. What I would do is reread the whole manga and you will probably think differently.