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Translations: Bleach 595 (2)
Kirigakure is one of the most interesting incomplete stories in Naruto. It has a number of players, but I am having trouble piecing together the story.
First you have the 5th Mizukage who has 2 KG's. Her reign is a peaceful one by the looks of it. When did she become mizukage.....
Then the 4th Mizukage, Yagura.
He controlled the 3tails, had full control of it and was apparently being controlled by someone else.
The 3tails was free when deidera and tobi caught it, so Yagura must have been dead by this point.
Which brings me on to Madara. Kisame mentioned that he was also the mizukage at some point. Maybe the 3rd mizukage? He is old enough to be the 2nd or 1st, but Kisame knew him, so it must have been during kisame's lifetime.
Then you have Zabuza. He was in the hidden mist ANBU. During his childhood the village was called the bloody mist. When he killed everyone, they abandoned the practice. He then tried to kill the mizukage and ran away.
The question is, who did Zabuza try to kill? It was fairly recently so means it must have been Yagura or the new one. Why he would kill Yagura is beyond me, so it is likely to be the new one. Yagura's reign was the bloody mist time, so zabuza should have liked it (maybe this was the time he was an ANBU).
But then who killed Yagura? Mizukage with full control of the beast and he was pretty young. I can't imagine he would be easy to kill. Maybe a rebellion?
We know that Yagura may have been controlled. Who was it? It can't be Danzo because Ao would have noticed. Madara is out of the question because he was a mizukage anyway, so wouldn't need to control the next one. Oro is another one, but he had his own village.
Kirigakure also had a number of interesting clans. The ice clan and the Kaguya clan.
During the time before Zabuza left, everyone hated these clans' KG and wiped them out. But the new Mizukage has two different KGs? They must have a new attitude towards them.
What I gather is that during either yagura or madara's reign, there was a lot of war and people came to hate the clans. Then Zabuza met haku and took him away. Then by the time the new mizukage came along, attitudes must have changed.
But this means Zabuza must have left before the new Mizukage came along, so who the hell did he try to kill?
As you can see, my Kirigakure time line is hazy. Halp?
Last edited by poobert; February 24, 2010 at 01:07 PM.
Um I dont want to get into trouble with the mods as I'm unsure if this is the place to discuss but I will post my comments in spoilers.
Hope this helps...
Also I love the idea of this thread as I have been wondering about the history of the Mist.
Was it really Ao that discovered the genjutsu? It seemed that the 5th mizukage only hinted that the 4th may have been controlled, not that it was a sure thing.
I also don't see the logic in madara's control of yagura. Madara at some point was Mizukage. He could have just stayed on, rather than have yagura replace him, and then control him.
It is also a bit of a puzzle when raikage blamed them for being the founding place of Akatsuki. On top of that:
Mizukage looks surprised that Madara is the founder of Akatsuki. Almost as if she didn't even know he was alive, let alone her predecessor.
I am interested to see that Zabuza did indeed try to kill Yagura.... his motives are still a puzzle, especially if Yagura was a bloody killer (seems to strike a chord with Zabuza's philosophy).
I don't think Madara ever was Mizukage, I think Kisame called him Mizukage because Madara controlled Yagura and Kisame knew that.
When Madara was Mizukage, he was not Uchiha Madara, and if he was, only a few people like Kisame knew he was actually an Uchiha.
For an Uchiha to be the Kage of another country the world would literally blow up. This is a clan that has deep roots in Konoha, for one of, if not their most powerful clansman to be a Kage of another village would be crazy.
Most likely, Madara assumed the identity of someone else, and might have worn his mask when he was the Mizukage. He only let his most powerful and loyal ninja, like Kisame, know who he was. He later made Yagura the 4th Mizukage as a puppet, so he could continue to run Kiri and also create Akatsuki.
I still am unsure if it was madara.
Genjutsu would not have worked on Yagura if he could indeed control his beast. What's more is that Madara wanted the tailed beasts when he first formed akatsuki, which I guess would have been after he demoted himself. It would have been easier for him in the long run to set the beast free and then pick it up when he needed. If he put it in the mizukage, he would have ANBU to deal with.
I think that Madara may have been responsible for the death of Yagura instead.
Madara may have been overthrown by Yagura and mystery person, so Madara instigated the civil war, which saw Haku's clan die out, and two of the swordsmen defect as well as the perpetual fighting.
Zabuza is only 3 years younger than kisame, so if kisame knew about madara, then Zabuza likely did too. What if Madara told zabuza to try and kill Yagura. Zabuza failed and left, but Madara succeeded eventually anyway.
In this scenario, Kisame's defection is understood too. Kisame seems loyal to the Mizukage, madara, but not to kirigakure and Yagura when he left. Madara may have ordered him to make a ruckus like Zabuza in attempt to either get back in power, or kill Yagura and set the 3 tails free.
Danzo may be a better bet as to the guy controlling Yagura. Was his root training not meant to be similar to the bloody mist? It seems something like Danzo's doing in order to prevent Madara from gaining too much power and protecting Konoha.
As I said before this is nothing new even Kakashi used this ability to place a suggestion in Zabuza making him think he could predict the future. As the Sharingan's true power lies in Genjutsu
- Trying to understand Madara's logic is another thing there is so much we dont know about Madara so can not comment with facts on this part only speculation.
- The Mizukage and others only knew that Yagura was being manipulated not who was behind it. As he was manipulated from the shadows just as Akatsuki was being lead my Pain who was secretly taking orders from Madara.
Planting a suggestion in someones mind without using handseals just by making eye contact is a high level skill used by Sharingan users. People might point to KillerBee breaking Sasuke's Tsukiyomi but that was because Sasuke used torture in his Genjutsu which made it obvious he was using Genjutsu not subtle at all.
As I pointed out you have to know your in a Genjutsu to break out of it as look what Itachi did just by pointing a finger at Naruto the line between reality and Genjutsu was blurred. He didnt even realize he was in a Genjutsu until after the Itachi's started to transform.
Hence my point if Yagura knew he was being manipulated he could have defended himself but he was obviously clueless probably partially because he is a Mist shinobi and did not know the full capabilities of the Uchiha clans Sharingan as Zabuza didnt know about this ability till after he had time to analyze his first battle with Kakashi.
BTW: As I said I am working on parts of the Fanbook2 and you can check it out at the Databook section but here is the part relevant here :
Last edited by POW; February 24, 2010 at 09:55 PM.
That doesn't really matter as long as the beast constantly disrupts chakra during battle
The scanlation was useful.
It paints Zabuza as an enemy to Akatsuki. A clear difference to Kisame. I really hope we get to see what happened with the other swordsmen. There must have been others like Zabuza, who disagreed with Akatsuki controlling Yagura. Maybe most of them seeing as kisame was the only swordsman actually in akatsuki.
It is a real shame we didn't get a Kisame back story. Just a sentence that he knew madara. Kisame was one of the first akatsuki that we saw, so I am really disappointed that he was only developed up to a cliffhanger.
You are missing the point there was no battle Madara was probably using his genjutsu during quiet talks between him and Yagura. Just like during the Kage meeting how Danzou used it on Mifune they where not engaged in battle.
As I said the key to countering genjutsu is first to know you are in a Genjutsu. Remember during the Chuunin exams when they where suppose to go into that building and there where two examiners acting like bullies.
They used a Genjutsu to make it look like they where on a different floor.
- The point being if you dont notice a Genjutsu then obviously you wont counter it even if you are capable of dispelling it.
If your interested I did thread on Mangashare with ideas for other 7 Swordsmen but this was well before the Kage meeting.
7 Swordsmen Thread
- However I have been only responding to questions here so let me place my own theory on what may have happened in the Mist.
I have long noticed that the Mist village teachings at least under Yagura are the opposite of the Leaf villages. They seemed opposed almost in metaphorical sense as well with Fire vs Water.
We know that true rivals tend to have opposing philosophies and this is what was represented in these two villages .
Leaf = Strength through protecting something important. The will of fire connecting everyone together like family and nurturing the next generation ( love) like the "Younger son"
Mist = Strength through sacrifice and rivalry and conflict. This is much like the "Elder Son"
- So you can clearly see the Mist's "Bloody era" had Madara's influence and carried his philosophy of power through sacrifice. The civil wars that took place in the Mist where Madara's test to produce the strongest shinobi possible in the Mist just as he is constantly pushing Sasuke. A survival of the fittest mentality as it where.
- We also know Kisame was wanted for killing of Feudal lords in Water country but I think in some ways he was being used indirectly by Madara to do so.
Why you might ask.... well we know that the system of rule in the World of Naruto has Feudal lord who wield political power and run the countries. While the Kages and leaders of ninja villages hold the military power and are in charge of military defense of countries.
Perhaps by having Kisame kill off Feudal lords he was consolidating power in the Water country and gaining greater influence and control. Madara may have had a plan to use the Mist country in some way in conjunction with Akatsuki just as Pain ruled the Rain village while running Akatsuki as well.
We know plans dont always pan out and my guess it was Zabuza's attempted assassination of the Yagura the 4th Mizukage which drew closer attention to him. Obviously after such an attempt security would be tightened and things put under a magnifying glass.
This may be how Ao stumbled on the fact Yagura was under someone's Genjutsu and then trust was lost on the 4th Mizukage and some kind of revolution took place in which Yagura fell out of power. With Yagura exposed Madara lost his influence in the Mist village and had to form a new plan.
What happened to Yagura I'm not sure it possible that he was just taken down by his own bodyguards and something as simple as slipping a drug in a his drink that made him sleep. Then they extracted the tailed beast from him as he may have been considered too powerful to take down in a straight up fight.
Last edited by POW; February 25, 2010 at 02:53 PM.
It must have been a select amount of people like the 7 swordsman that actual knew that Madara was actually controlling Yagura seeing as how when Madara came in the room and announced himself the current Mizukage didn't have the same reaction as Kasame when she saw him. She just thinks Akatsuki was controlling the mist.
I don't think that Madara was an actual Mizukage. How he was able to control a jinchuuriki that had full control of his Bijuu is beyond me. I also think there was a revolution and the 4th Mizukage was in charge of that striped Yagura of his powers and bijuu (France). The time period is unknown but it would be nice to know but I think seeing as Zabuza love carnage he tried to assassinate the 4th since she opposed the blood mist village. why is Madara responsible for everything. Probably responsible for all the nin wars too.
PS. How did the mist lose a tailed beast Idiots
Last edited by niblack89; February 25, 2010 at 08:36 PM.
By the Way, Ao said he could see through Yagura's Genjutsu (According to Japflap, which means that he was good with illusions), after that it's Terumi who said that he was controlled by someone.
Last edited by Samui; February 26, 2010 at 05:27 AM.
Another explanation about Kisame saying that Tobi is the former Mizukage could be that Tobi = Yagura (= Madara?).
It's not imposible that Yagura and Madara are the same person... (Body snatching or Franktobi theory, etc).
Since Kisame knew Yagura's face, he would have recognize him as the former Mizukage.
And Madara and Yagura share some stuff (like being able to control Bijuu, etc).
But, in the same time, this theory might not be so good, since Ao said that Yagura was controlled by a external party...
I like the idea that there is a connection between the mist and the leaf. The mist selection exam where they fight until all but one dies, is not that far from the forest of death idea in konoha. The teams from Konoha are almost required to fight their comrades, and death, while not the goal, is not uncommon.
It would be interesting if the mist training exam was just madara trying to stretch the limits of konoha's practices.