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View Poll Results: Aizen or Yama?

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  • Aizen - He's just manipulating Yama givin' him false hope!

    23 22.55%
  • Yama - He's over 9000 years old.

    79 77.45%
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Thread: Aizen vs Yamamoto

  1. #1
    Registered User 初心者/ Shoshinsha / Beginner Captain Class's Avatar
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    Aizen vs Yamamoto

    I'm growing tired of this; over at one manga forums all the yama fanboys are creaming their tighty wightys over Aizen's latest comment; I'm sorry for making 2 threads in 2 days but I just want manga helpers input on this.

    I believe Yama is stronger physically than Aizen but Aizen would still manage a victory; they are both afraid of each other to the point where Aizen won't even fight him fairly and Yama will take his own life in the first move just to take him down.

    Battle conditions

    The battle is pure; they are in a huge dome room; about 500 mile radius; and 500 miles upward; they go all out and use only themselves; and their zanpakuto to kill each other.

    I understand that being commanders of armies is a huge part of their strength; but for now I'm going to exclude that.

    My personal opinion?

    Offense: Yama
    Defense: Yama
    Intelligence: Aizen
    Tactics: Aizen
    Zanpaktu: Aizen
    Speed: Draw
    Reatsu: Yama

    I personally think Aizen would win in this scenario; albeit it will be by a razor thin margin.

  2. #2
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: ugh... Aizen vs Yama REDUX.

    Well, in general the deal seems to be about how zampakuto would match up against each other. Ryujin Jakka is a purely offensive zampakuto back up by yama's unbelievable reaitsu. Naturally this makes RJ the strongest zampakuto. On the other hand we have KS. It has one of the most hax abilities we have seen so far, an illusion so overwhelmingly powerful that there simply is no known way to break out of it and we have no reason whatsoever to believe it can be broken. Now, the only flaw KS has it that other than the illusion it does not add in any way to aizen's power. In that sense, in a direct confrontation yama would be the more powerful. Then again, aizen's zampakuto is not meant to aid in direct confrontation but rather it adds significantly to the tactical aspect of battle. The way I see it, even if aizen has the stronger reiatsu, yama just by having a vaguely comparable one would have the stronger offensive power simply due to having a zampakuto whose main characteristic is pure offensive power.

    Now, we have the other aspects of battle. In terms of experience yamamoto would obviously be the superior one. Then again, aizen has been around for quite some time and him himself also has quite a bit of it. Even if yama has been around for more time, I doubt it is something he could hold up against aizen simply due to him being centuries old.

    In terms of physical capacities I would think aizen's youth to a higher standard than yamamoto's. This is hard to judge though considering we have seen little which would allow us to compare. We do know aizen is faster than resurreccion ulquiorra though considering ichigo could not react at all to aizen while he could at least use a GT against ulquiorra to save his life. Aizen also fought against hordes of captains and even kyoraku proved to be too slow to deal with him. Kyoraku along with ukitake though, did seem to be capable of keeping up with yama. We have very little grounds to compare this two but considering yamamoto seemed to fight to a stalemate kyoraku and ukitake while aizen literally owned 5 captains (including kyoraku) without actually making an effort I would say aizen has the edge here.

    Then we have reiatsu. We have seen a few feats of the both of them so it is also hard to judge. From yamamoto we saw huge colums of fire, scaring ukitake to death and make nanao fall unconscious from just a look. On aizen we have seen a few more feats. We have seen the guy take on komamura shikai barehanded twice, a kido with a third of it's intended power -hence a failure- utterly trash komamura, grimmjow was forced to his knees on reiatsu alone -greatest reiatsu feat shown in the manga so far considering grimmjow in fact does posses captain level reiatsu- and the supression of soifon's shikai technique on reiatsu alone (also impressive due to it being a captain level attack with kido-ish properties). Given this, I do think yamamoto has considerably greater offensive power due to his zampakuto but overall IMHO aizen has the stronger reiatsu. I do think their reiatsu are comparable to some extent.

    Seeing yamamoto and how far aizen went in order to fight him also reminded me of this.
    http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/390/18/
    Gin's comment suggest people with enough power could hope to fight aizen even in spite of the illusion. In that sense, even if yama is just as subjected to the illusion as anyone, he could oppose aizen through sheer raw power.

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  4. #3
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Bromamura's Avatar
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    Re: ugh... Aizen vs Yama REDUX.

    Aizen settled the debate himself. There's really no fanboyism in it at all, just manga fact, that's all there is to it. Whatever translation you read, Aizen flat out admitted that in a straight fight, (that's KS included) Yama is the stronger/more powerful, and he means it in a genralised way, hence overall, no one in their right mind would let Aizen go on in a long winded speech along the line of "In a fair fight, your four areas of shinigami combat combined with your zanpakuto is superior to my four areas of shinigami combat combined with the power of my zanpakuto, and thus makes you the stronger fighter” when the exact same meaning could be expressed with a few simple words. I also think Gran Maestro gave a pretty good explanation of why the Captain Commander considered suicide to be the most secure option in the discussion thread. All Kubo wanted to do is to convey his point that Yama>Aizen, and the best way to do this other than clarifying it in an interview is through his character's own statements, that's how authors get their points across. I don't get what the fuss is all about, didn’t see anyone complaining when Aizen claimed he was stronger than the Espada combined. Aizen's own statement + the fact he created Wonderweiss specifically to aid him is enough for me, what's even more impressive is that it came from the mouth of the most arrogant character in the entire manga.

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    Registered User 初心者/ Shoshinsha / Beginner Captain Class's Avatar
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    Re: ugh... Aizen vs Yama REDUX.

    No it was Kubo's way of pleasing his fan base; he does not have the imagination to come up with a way to beat KS so in live action he would nerf it's abilities in order for yama to win.

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Bromamura's Avatar
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    Re: ugh... Aizen vs Yama REDUX.

    Yama has no fanbase, it's Aizen who's got more fans in Japan. Kubo is just writing to express how strong he believe his characters truely are, he didn't nerf anything. He made Aizen say Yama is stronger, therefore the old man is stonger. If people want to ignore manga fact then its their own problem, the argument against it however is just becoming more and more ridiculous. The only one who got nerfed is Yama via Wonderweiss so this manga could still obey shounen law where the main antagonist is only ultimately defeated by the protagonist.
    Last edited by Bromamura; March 01, 2010 at 05:56 AM.

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    Re: ugh... Aizen vs Yama REDUX.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Well, in general the deal seems to be about how zampakuto would match up against each other. Ryujin Jakka is a purely offensive zampakuto back up by yama's unbelievable reaitsu. Naturally this makes RJ the strongest zampakuto.
    And by that logic, KS is the weakest zanpakuto because it adds nothing to Aizen's attack power. What Aizen says is that RJ is the strongest zanpakuto, its abilities trump the abilities of other zanpakuto including his own KS. You're (most probably intentionally) misreading the statement, if KS's abilities could trump RJ's, Aizen would never have said that RJ is the strongest. It's not only a matter of offensive strength, it's overall usefulness. Aizen says Yamamoto is more powerful than him in a straight fight.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Now, the only flaw KS has it that other than the illusion it does not add in any way to aizen's power. In that sense, in a direct confrontation yama would be the more powerful.
    So if Aizen did finish his sentence, he would say "You are probably more powerful than me in a fight, therefore I can most probably defeat you in a fight." Very interesting.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Then again, aizen's zampakuto is not meant to aid in direct confrontation but rather it adds significantly to the tactical aspect of battle. The way I see it, even if aizen has the stronger reiatsu, yama just by having a vaguely comparable one would have the stronger offensive power simply due to having a zampakuto whose main characteristic is pure offensive power.
    Yama made Aizen bleed by squeezing his arm, it's safe to assume that the strongest one has the most reiatsu.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Aizen also fought against hordes of captains and even kyoraku proved to be too slow to deal with him. Kyoraku along with ukitake though, did seem to be capable of keeping up with yama. We have very little grounds to compare this two but considering yamamoto seemed to fight to a stalemate kyoraku and ukitake while aizen literally owned 5 captains (including kyoraku) without actually making an effort I would say aizen has the edge here.
    We don't know the details of Yama vs Shunsui & Ukitake fight and I think none of them were using their strongest techniques that could gravely injure and possibly kill the other. Kubo (by using Nanao and Ukitake) made it clear that Shunsui & Ukitake didn't stand a chance against Yama and they would eventually lose.

    Keep in mind that Shunsui and Ukitake have been friends for a very long time and they know how to fight as a team. IMO Shunsui+Ukitake is much better than Shunsui+Shinji, not because Shinji is vastly inferior to Ukitake but Shunsui and Ukitake know each other very well.

    Aizen didn't outperform these captains in swordplay, he provoked the (mentally) weakest link and thus created an opening to distract and finish them. Kubo emphasized the opening, otherwise Shunsui and the other captains would be long gone.

    Long story short, Aizen said "He created WW to challenge the strongest by nullifying his greatest aspect." You can disagree with Kubo all day long but sorry, it doesn't matter.

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    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity DARK's Avatar
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    Re: ugh... Aizen vs Yama REDUX.

    Quote Originally Posted by xCUBE View Post
    Yama has no fanbase, it's Aizen who's got more fans in Japan.
    If that is your logic, then Hitsugaya should have pwned Aizen. HE's the most popular Bleach character in Japan and possibly worldwide for a good 2-3 polls now.
    Meanwhile, when was the last time that Aizen actually made it to the Top 10 list?
    Last edited by DARK; March 01, 2010 at 04:04 PM.

  13. #8
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Bromamura's Avatar
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    Re: ugh... Aizen vs Yama REDUX.

    Quote Originally Posted by DARK View Post
    If that is your logic, then Hitsugaya should have pwned Aizen. HE's the most popular Bleach character in Japan and posssibly worldwide for a good 2-3 polls now.
    Yet he doesn't, that just proves my point Kubo isn't willing to sacrifice his own beliefs in the power level of his characters just for the sake of fanbase. It's got nothing to do with who's got more fans, it's about who Kubo chooses be the strongest character in this manga, in this case it's Yamamoto.

    Quote Quote:
    Meanwhile, when was the last time that Aizen actually made it to the Top 10 list?
    Yama never made it into the Top 50. The person I responded to was trying to make it sound as if Kubo is attempting to appease Yama's fanbase when in reality he hardly has any. Unfortunately what you said have got nothing to do with what I said.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member exacta's Avatar
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    Re: Aizen vs Yamamoto

    Theres no point to this debate. Aizen said in a straightforward fight, he'd lose. Plus, if it wasn't for Wonderweiss, Aizen would be toast right now.

    What I'm more interested in is if Wonderweiss can defeat Yamamoto. Can't wait to finally see what Wonderweiss and Yamamoto can do this week, although Wonderweiss looks very odd. We've seen little of the potential of either, so we could be in for a great fight.

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Primecut's Avatar
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    Re: Aizen vs Yamamoto

    Yama was suiciding to beat Aizen though. I think Aizen meant he would lose as in die due to the suicide attack Yama was going to do. Technically, Aizen would die even though we'd call it a tie if both fighters go down. Read the scans when Yama grabbed Aizen initially however, it was almost like Aizen didnt care and think Yama could do anything. Think about this one guys. Only when Yamamoto did the suicide attempt against Aizen did he admit that Yama would beat him. Aizen is probably saying that so Yama tries fighting and doesnt resort to some crazy suicidal attack. Dont forget Aizen is a master manipulator. He'll tell opponents the wrong techniques f it helps him.

  17. #11
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
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    Re: Aizen vs Yamamoto

    Quote Originally Posted by Primecut View Post
    Yama was suiciding to beat Aizen though. I think Aizen meant he would lose as in die due to the suicide attack Yama was going to do.
    See this post for the explanation of suicide attack. What you say is "It's either Aizen wins or it's a draw (both die)", on the contrary Aizen referred to Yamamoto as the strongest and he said Yamamoto could probably defeat him in a straight fight.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member vizardichigo's Avatar
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    Re: ugh... Aizen vs Yama REDUX.

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Class View Post
    No it was Kubo's way of pleasing his fan base; he does not have the imagination to come up with a way to beat KS so in live action he would nerf it's abilities in order for yama to win.
    Come on, now your just being silly....Now you are making excuses..Everything a character says in the manga is the character talking..Not Kubo...It's a story, so in this story Kubo Tite does not exist...Aizen Sousuke was talking...And he said, in both translations, that a fight 1 on 1 with Yama, with all of KS's illusions, HE WOULD LOSE...Anything else is just denial...Come on people, this is a non isue..Yama is stronger fighter, Aizen is a better strategist...Why cant you just accept that???????????????????
    Thank You Kubo...You have proven once and for all, that Yamamoto Genryuusai is STRONGER THAN AIZEN SOUSUKE despite what the fanboys think

  19. #13
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    Re: ugh... Aizen vs Yama REDUX.

    Quote Originally Posted by vizardichigo View Post
    Why cant you just accept that?
    Because the very thought of Yama being stronger than Aizen gives us the creeps.

    But seriously if Aizen's words in last chapter is not enough evidence, I guess even divine revelation won't work.

  20. #14
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: ugh... Aizen vs Yama REDUX.

    Quote Originally Posted by vizardichigo View Post
    Come on, now your just being silly....Now you are making excuses..Everything a character says in the manga is the character talking..Not Kubo...It's a story, so in this story Kubo Tite does not exist...Aizen Sousuke was talking...And he said, in both translations, that a fight 1 on 1 with Yama, with all of KS's illusions, HE WOULD LOSE...Anything else is just denial...Come on people, this is a non isue..Yama is stronger fighter, Aizen is a better strategist...Why cant you just accept that???????????????????
    Aizen said he would probably lose in a straight forward fight, that much is true. Then again, is KS meant for melee or any form of straight forward combat? Considering KS creates powerful illusions and does not actually increases or enhances aizen's attack power or speed I would think the answer is no. Now, aizen admitting he would lose to yama in a melee fight does not mean yamamoto can easily deal with the illusion. Even if yama did intentionally take the hit he just took -which is very likely- then it means that for him to get past the illusion he has to take a deep wound in the gut. What would have happened in a fight where yama didn't have an overpowered kamikaza attack and aizen had indeed used his illusion for the attack -considering yama actually saw aizen behind him before the stab I am inclined to think aizen didn't even use his illusion at least at the end-? Considering the paths of actions both took, none of them is completely sure they could beat the other. Only thing we know is that yamamoto has considerably more offensive power than aizen but on the other hand yama has no way to deal with the illusion outside of being stabbed.

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  22. #15
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    Re: ugh... Aizen vs Yama REDUX.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Aizen said he would probably lose in a straight forward fight, that much is true. Then again, is KS meant for melee or any form of straight forward combat? Considering KS creates powerful illusions and does not actually increases or enhances aizen's attack power or speed I would think the answer is no. Now, aizen admitting he would lose to yama in a melee fight does not mean yamamoto can easily deal with the illusion.
    When Aizen says "in a fair/honest/direct/straight fight" we both know what he means. He means a fight in which they go all out using their zanpakuto abilities. Aizen says "RJ is the strongest zanpakuto", you interpret it as "yes, but KS is the better zanpakuto overall (= actually KS is the strongest zanpakuto, Kubo is wrong)", Aizen says "you can probably defeat me", you interpret it as "yes, you can defeat me but only if I don't use my zanpakuto." This is so lame, my friend, this is my personal opinion but whenever there is a discussion about Aizen, you leave even the tiniest bit of common sense aside and find lame excuses to support your point. I hope you are not offended, I don't mean to insult you, this is just my observation, you ignore canon by stomping on common sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Even if yama did intentionally take the hit he just took -which is very likely- then it means that for him to get past the illusion he has to take a deep wound in the gut. What would have happened in a fight where yama didn't have an overpowered kamikaza attack and aizen had indeed used his illusion for the attack -considering yama actually saw aizen behind him before the stab I am inclined to think aizen didn't even use his illusion at least at the end-? Considering the paths of actions both took, none of them is completely sure they could beat the other. Only thing we know is that yamamoto has considerably more offensive power than aizen but on the other hand yama has no way to deal with the illusion outside of being stabbed.
    One more time: Yama is not in a "winner is the champion" fight against Aizen. Yama has a duty, he has to save KT & RD at all costs. If the king did say "Hey Yama, forget about KT and everybody else, defeat Aizen but don't die", Yama's priorities would be different, the fight would be different. Yama has to protect KT, Aizen only cares about himself, I think you can see the difference and understand why Yama did what he did.

    We're grown-up people, you know what Aizen says, I know what Aizen says, everybody else knows what Aizen says. None of us can deceive the others, if this is your honest opinion about Aizen's words, then so be it. Even though I didn't agree with many of your opinions, I used to enjoy them because common sense was prevalent in your posts. Not any more because it seems Aizen favoritism trumps your common sense. If Yama did say "KS is the strongest zanpakuto and Aizen can probably defeat me in a fair fight", then I'd accept it because (whether I like it or not) I respect Kubo's choices but it's just me.

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