I am not questioning sitting around, let others fight and strike when the enemy least expects it a tactic, I simply think doing that does not make shunsui "a master tactician" or anything even near that. It's not like shunsui left a exploding kawamiri as a decoy which he intended for the enemy to notice so that by avoiding it a freaking spirit bomb would obliterate him since the most likely place where he would move was were said spirit bomb was.
Obviously the whole "second coming of aizen" was a joke. I can't even begin to imagine how you associated that with kyoraku being a student of aizen's lol. Anyways, it is a well known fact the only one that can trully be considered a master tactician in bleach is aizen. There are other good ones around -probably- but until now they have been aizen's bitches. Seriously, the guy tricks 4 captains and the ryoka to HM and basically halves SS fighting capacity but shunsui is a master tactician because he sits around and strikes when convenient. Aizen mind rapes people but shunsui is a master tactician because he throws a hat to starrk. Anyways, I don't think shunsui deserves to be called a master tactician because he threw a hat to starrk or sat around while others got beat up. Does shunsui use tactics when fighting? Sure he does, good for him. Do those tactics make him a master tactician? God no. Seriously, if doing what shunsui did makes shunsui a master tactician or even an average one then hinamori would be GOD considering she made a kido net, lured the enemy into it and had it explode. Hitsugaya would be like USSJJJ 123456789 * god considering what he did to luppi -not only he sat around waiting for his chance but he also threw a chunk of heaven to the poor guy-.
Aizen is a manipulator. Just because Shunsui doesn't blow up spirit bombs or do special little techniques or use illusions to fool his enemies doesn't mean he isn't a master tactician. He simply deducted the two vizoreds couldn't beat Stark, took over, then won. A tactician can evaluate a situation then take charge. That's what he did. Throwing his captains cloak off to have all black and strike where it would deal a deadly blow is tactical. Not revealing his abilities all at once is tactical. Striking when needed is tactical.
You state he's a cheap shot man, well Aizen isn't any better with his cheap shots from behind. Or his cheap tricks with Illusions of himself to stay away from the real strikes. As for Shunsui, before he even released his Shikai he was fighting Stark straight up. Don't see any cheap shot moves there. And even when he did fight stark the only 'cheap-shot' he took was the strike from the shadow. He explained his color game to Stark who had the equal opportunity to win the fight. He didn't win though. Shunsui easily out powered and out fought Stark. Yet Ichigo had trouble against the 6th ranked espada with his Mask on. You really think Ichigo would win because he has a some full hollow form? That's childs play compared to the deadly games Shunsui has. Once he catches him in the color game, that ability of his is gone. Much the same as Stark's wolves, they were gone. And Ichigo, if fighting against Shunsui would be gone.
Another reason that Shunsui is a master in battle- http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/362/12/ He knew even before Stark showed his hand that his gun could fire more than just ceros. He denied it, but in fact we seen later on that it was in fact true, since he fired wolves with it. If that isn't a tactician i don't know what is.
Last edited by freshseth83; April 23, 2010 at 02:25 AM.
Ichigo has no real chance of winning against any opponent who has a formidable reiatsu/reiryoku level (captain level & high tier) and has the capability to use his/her head while fighting (which excludes Kenpachi).
Those people would be capable of thinking of a strategy to deal with SSJ3 Ichigo (or Ichigonator, but I prefer the DBZ reference). Even if the strategy would be running & backstab.
Actually, there's not much of a reason to explain why normal bankai Ichigo would lose. You might just want to consider the opinion of the people who are deeply disappointed in Ichigo's performance and ask when and why his bankai's abilities disappeared.
Therefore, my vote goes to Kyouraku. Easy win, except for SSJ3 Ichigo.
The guns fired ONLY cero, starrk told the truth in that one. Wolves didn't come out of his guns, they came out of that black things starrk had on his back. Go ahead and prove me wrong here, I would love to see a frame with the wolves being shot from the guns though.
As for whether he deducted the vizards could not win, I would think you are assuming too much. Shunsui simply took a chance, that is all. Whether love could have won against starrk remains in the air considering he never really went bankai and pretty much the same goes for rose.
shunsui is smart but saying good as aizen is a over statment. shunsui is overrated at moment i agree but he has fought clever fight. sneak attacks are clever not wimpy :P rushing head first into a dangerous and maybe stronger enemy will get you killed so he cheats and takes advantage of them distracted. i woundt claim he a master technican.
the thread should be just ichigonator (hate that word) vs shunsui as they are the two most over hyped characters in bleach ever...still shunusi would beat the feral hollow IMO
I think Perfect Hollow form Ichigo would pwn Shunsui. Look at this: http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v40/c350/9.html
With just one swipe of his sword he created this much destruction. Also he beat Ulquiorra's 2nd release quickly with one slash from his sword. Does anybody honestly think Shunsui can take a cero from Ichigo, when it blew half of Ulquiorra's body away.
Ichigo's speed, strength and power should be far above Shunsui while in that form.
perfect hollow only beating ulquiorra is not a good gauge on strength as ulquiorra is weaker than most of espadas and unless it appears again ( hope it doesnt) and destroys are stronger enemy i wont be convinced..you get what i mean ?
a tactican is some1 like aizen who has planned for every possible thing i.e WW for yamma
a guriella is someone who ambush and takes advantages of a situition.
2. uki grabbed byakuyas hand before he released shikai that does not show skill lol.
3. aizen toys with his enemies he loves to wound them so they watch him win. it what i hate about him just wish he could kill hitsu and do the SS a favor.
4. just because he pointed and sent chad flying DOESNT mean he good at KIDO.
5. even without KS aizen has to have power or anyone could beat him with or without KS he needs a huge amount of reitsu to deliver his powerfull blows and speed so saying shunsui could beat him with KS is a huge guess coz aizen is at his shinigami power limit and aizen is smart he could always find a way to mess with someones mind be it nanao or lisa.....
and hisagi s deathblow was brill dont put him down it was cool what he did
Funny how Shunsui threads turn into a discussion of the Stark-Shunsui fight.
On topic: Shunsui has quite a big chance of winning against normal Ichigo, but Ichigonator absolutely curbs him, he has no chance in defeating that.
perfect hollow ichigo strength is still unknown we are comparing his strength to murdering a 5th espada ulquiorra. shunsui could beat perfect hollow ichigo shadows, brains and speed his advantages
But back on topic. Its true, we do not know about ichinator's strength. But it is clear that he is quite strong. In terms of pure destructive power, he may be better than shunsui. But shunsui to me is more sneaky and calculative and his powers are trickier
Last edited by Kaiten; April 28, 2010 at 12:56 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost