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Thread: Obervations and questions after re-reading manga

  1. #61
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member eefrit's Avatar
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    Re: Obervations and questions after re-reading manga

    Extending on HegemonKhan's explanation, perhaps the Claymore's bones are sort of like the body's of Yoma and Awakened Ones. The are hard and dense like normal bone when yoki is not continuously in use, but they turn malleable when yoki is in use.

    Also while they aren't bones, they still function as bones. Remember the chapter where Dietrich saved Yuma? Yuma got hit in the elbow by a parasite rod and had to force it out, after which she lost the function of her arm. So they still function as bone but perhaps they match the color of the blood and tissue of the Claymore.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Goral's Avatar
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    Re: Obervations and questions after re-reading manga

    Does the voice of a Claymore change in awakened form? It's interesting they can talk in the first place but what's even more interesting is that it seems their voice remains the same, even when some awakeneds become giants or turtles or insects. In Hilda's case it seemed she did not talk either because she was afraid Miria would recognize her (which would suggest the voice did not change) or she just wanted guts of everyone except Miria and did not want to talk with her meal.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member HegemonKhan's Avatar
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    Re: Obervations and questions after re-reading manga

    well, remember Clare could change her body (vocal cords and whatever else is apart of voice, lol) to change her voice too.

    So, if a Claymore can do that, why not an Awakened as well ?
    "The internet’s perfect for all manner of things, but productive discussion ain’t one of them. It provides scant room for debate and infinite opportunities for fruitless point-scoring: the heady combination of perceived anonymity, gestated responses, random heckling and a notional “live audience” quickly conspire to create a “perfect storm” of perpetual bickering." - Charlie Brooker

    "I hold the wolf by the ears, I am in a dangerous situation and dare not let go" -an old saying in Latin

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Goral's Avatar
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    Re: Obervations and questions after re-reading manga

    It's one thing to make your voice in a bit lower vocal range and another to have it (or not have it changed enough) so it wouldn't be recognizable when your whole body is completely different. There are many people in real life (singers mostly but also seiyuu and other actors) that have a really wide range of voice types they can use and they don't need youma powers for that. But not every AB can change their parts of body any way they like so technically, probably some AB shouldn't be able to speak or at least should have their voices changed. But neither in manga nor in anime we have seen any indication of that. Or haven't we? I don't remember anime too well.
    Last edited by Goral; August 16, 2011 at 11:32 PM.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member HegemonKhan's Avatar
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    Re: Obervations and questions after re-reading manga

    well, let's not forget as well that all Awakeneds have a humanoid form... that they can change between it and their Awakened form at will.

    Also, NYs can speak as well (at least the NY during Trainee Clare's extra-special chapter, as well as the SNY too - I think).

    Also, even if the Awakened's body is completely different why would it not be able to speak just like a human as much as not being able to ??

    Birds can mimic our voices exactly, "polly wanna cracker". So, voice isn't restricted to just a human's anatomy and pysiological structure.

    Also, let's not forget that ALL Awakeneds WERE human... so they kinda know "how to" talk, lol.

    they retain their humanoid bodies/forms, so why is it strange that they retain their humanoid voices too ?

    Also, can't the same thing be said about Claymores, why can Claymores talk, as they're just as much monsters/non-humans as are Awakeneds ? how can Claymores talk ?
    Last edited by HegemonKhan; August 16, 2011 at 11:55 PM.
    "The internet’s perfect for all manner of things, but productive discussion ain’t one of them. It provides scant room for debate and infinite opportunities for fruitless point-scoring: the heady combination of perceived anonymity, gestated responses, random heckling and a notional “live audience” quickly conspire to create a “perfect storm” of perpetual bickering." - Charlie Brooker

    "I hold the wolf by the ears, I am in a dangerous situation and dare not let go" -an old saying in Latin

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Goral's Avatar
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    Re: Obervations and questions after re-reading manga

    It's true ABs can change between their forms but that doesn't explain why they can talk in their AWAKENED forms. Their body completely changes so for them to be able to speak is an interesting thing. And since their body completely changes and they suddenly become like plastic man, one could also wonder how they can talk in their human forms. People can talk thanks to vocal cords and tongue and we saw changed tongues when Claymores awakened (in volume 11 for example, after Riguald had been defeated, also Luciella had two mouths) so technically their voices should change and they could even lose their ability to talk.
    As for birds, with them it's more complicated, here's a rough explanation why they can talk. Suffice to say that strict conditions must be made and somehow more intelligent animals can't talk (like chimps or dolphins). It's not enough to know how to talk, without proper instruments it's impossible because of acoustics. Some birds can't talk because even if they were smart enough to imitate human speech they would not have the right "tools" to do it and instead we would hear a whistle or sth.
    Last edited by Goral; August 17, 2011 at 04:31 AM.

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    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member
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    Re: Obervations and questions after re-reading manga

    Well regardless of how they can talk or not after awakening. I can clearly say the manga would be a lot more boring if they can't and would even be seen as awkwards. You wouldn't have any of them yelling "I'm goina kill you!!" or AB's telling people of their sick plans like Ophelia telling Clare about her "game" to Clare, we wouldn't be able to learn anything from that male Spiderman AB ether...etc... All we would get is "..." and some thought bubbles.

    It would be like this. LOL

    Miria: Blah blah blah male awakened beings.
    Spiderman AB: ...
    Miria: Wait you are..?
    Spiderman AB: .oO(I want to show you true despair... damn I wish I can talk... crap..)

    LOL!
    Last edited by Khorr; August 17, 2011 at 08:29 AM.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Goral's Avatar
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    Re: Obervations and questions after re-reading manga

    Agreed, although in some cases it would be advantageous. It would depend on what someone would have to say :]. I would think that generally non-talkative monster is more creepy than someone you can reason with (see Riful for example), although in most cases less interesting. But if all AB would say was "I'll kill/eat you" then he could as well not speak at all. But anyway, the point of this question was to stir some discussion up. Fortunately the answer "we shouldn't try to make sense of every little detail in this fictional world" didn't come up until now :].

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    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member
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    Re: Obervations and questions after re-reading manga

    LOL I was watching the anime again and noticed something very intresting.

    After Clare recieved the black card and left Raki at the inn by himself. Rubel was telling Raki about how Claymores are 1/2 human, 1/2 monster etc... Then he went to say something like "that's the reason why they remain an ally to YOUR race". So is he implying that himself (Rubel) is not part of the human race... like he's NOT human?

    I also noticed a boo boo made in the anime. Child Clare had GREEN eyes while adult Claymore Clare under the yoki suppression pill had BROWN eyes.

    All of this has no bearing on the manga of course, but I thought it was rather intresting.

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  17. #70
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Goral's Avatar
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    Re: Obervations and questions after re-reading manga

    Another thing I've noticed: defensive warriors prefer companionship more than offensive types. Clare and Teresa both were loners and liked to go their own paths. Teresa liked to isolate herself from others, Clare likewise. Clare was the one that wanted to abandon fabulous 7 group. Ophelia also lived in her own world. Irene lived completely alone. Rafaella was a lone wolf and assassin. Yuma, Cynthia and Tabitha wanted to stay with others. Galatea chose to live with humans, Audrey had a partner. Helen is an exception here but that's the only case we know of such long friendship between two claymores and it still is like I said: defensive warriors are more likely to stay in groups than offensive ones. Of course it may be just a coincidence.

    Edit:
    To the newcomers, I recommend reading this whole thread because there are some interesting things in here (IMO but not only as you can see by the number of replies).
    Last edited by Goral; May 29, 2012 at 04:32 PM.

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  19. #71
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Shiek927's Avatar
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    Re: Obervations and questions after re-reading manga

    I have a feeling that's just coincidence Gooral....I mean, the whole bit about offensive or defensive seems to be based around "the fight or flight" thing...whether you are the type to fight or flight in a dangerous situation...

    Of course, that's a bit silly and seems a bit too close-minded...Ironically, and hilariously, I remember even arguing with Hedge about that...how you react in a situation like that doesn't "define" you or suddenly and secretly reveal "your true self" or any bologna like that...it's the same with that Shan Yu quote I believe, where if you know somebody for your whole life, and then tie him above a volcano, he'll finally reveal who he really is - that's nonsense (not to mention, on your part, insane...what kind of friend are you to do that? XD)...

    Maybe I'm thinking too deeply about it, and it's not with how Claymore handles it....I'm thinking specifically of a single situation, which is namely the one where the orphans had their life-changing moment (Deneve hid underneath the bed, whereas Priscilla attacked)...perhaps this whole thing is much broader and is based more on how a person would usually act or what is "withing their nature"...again though, I feel like disagreeing on principle because that's just ridiculous to me - that one life-threatening split-second decision, defines you in some way...even if you typically act in a certain way, whether to fight or flight, it still feels wrong to take that and label you as "offensive or defensive"...

    I feel though, unfortunately for me, that I'm wrong and, with Claymore anyway, that really IS how things are made...I feel your words are coincidence and it's not like Offensives are loners, and Defensives are needy...however, maybe it's just because I feel like disagreeing with some things on principle and that people, the characters at any rate, are not so set-in-stone and predictable....that what labelled them as Offensive or Defensive, if we are too believe it's based on their preference/tendency to either fight or flight in a dangerous situation, was based on one encounter (the life-changing yoma moment specifically, since that is always what is cited when warriors think back to why they are a certain "type")...

    However, again, I feel my words are wrong and your words are not coincidence and more likely are right.....I feel the need to disagree because I just hate black-and-white set-in-stone "this is your true nature" stuff like that....it just feels wrong to me, and I don't like the idea that the characters could be so predictable if that's true....even if they have a tendency to behave in a certain way in bad situations, it's not like they are so predictable that I will know exactly how they behave based on whether or not they are Offensive or Defensive, which in turn may be based on what is their "true nature"....

    Because after all, the warriors are people, and like people, they grow and change....Yuma is a defensive warrior if I'm correct, yet she's finding it in herself to step-in, find some self-confidence and "look cool" for a change (:P)....so what's up with that? If she had that potential all along, then shouldn't she be Offensive? if she had the ability all along to stick up for herself but it didn't till now? Or maybe the Offensive/Defensive things really don't actually "spell out" the characters so much and actually reveal who they are.....that's what I like to believe - that the label is largely superfluous and isn't actually a map of the character's personality, most-likely reactions etc...

    I don't know....I'm aware I took your post and went all over with it, but I'm just not keen on giving the Offensive/Defensive thing too much weight...Ophelia read Claire like an open-book, but that was more just because she's an intellligent and manipulative and not so much because her type revealed all about her....I feel the need to say that your ideas on how the warriors react socially is wrong and has little to do with their type, partially just because I find those ideas distasteful; I'm simply not fond of the class spelling out the warriors too much...it just feels so shallow to me, even though I'm aware their is evidence that, with Claymore anyway, that this really IS how things work and how the characters are made.

    It's like, once you know whether or not they are Offensive or Defensive, you have a guide to how the character is....whether they are hot-blooded or meek, social or antisocial etc.....that just seems so shallow to me - more that the type is simply how they are more likely to act in a dangerous situation and, that's that; not anything farther and certainly not a road-map to the person's personality for all time.... I'm aware I could be wrong and the label has some weight to it, but I'd prefer if it didn't have too much.
    Last edited by Shiek927; May 29, 2012 at 07:12 PM.
    You know, there are as many ways to live as there are people in this world...and each one deserves a closer look.

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  21. #72
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Goral's Avatar
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    Re: Obervations and questions after re-reading manga

    Well, there might be a very simple explanation for offensive warriors being loners and defensive warriors seeking companions and that is - offensive warriors tend to be stronger so they don't need any companions. I also think that in general they're more strong-minded. I wonder who Priscilla is though, because she was of a weak mind and she was reserved (just like Yuma for example) and as an AB she has ridiculous regeneration power...

    I think that defensive/offensive thing is one of the most interesting things to discuss in Claymore and it's sad that we do not have better translation of volumes 6 and 7. My Polish colleague Uruner has translated page 62 (from Japanese) and said that Viz version really is inaccurate but I have no idea how much better (if any) is his version. Here it is if someone's interested:
    Quote Originally Posted by Uruner
    Page 62

    Hey, did you know?

    There are two types of us warriors.
    Those that excel in defence,
    and those that excel in offence.

    You can usually tell them apart
    by differences in their characters …

    and both you and
    me are offence type.

    It’s really surprising how
    well you can sense it… but…

    Even your defence method entirely
    comes from the preamble you
    use in your attacks

    it feels as if you’re preparing for
    mighty powerful opponent …

    still….

    What I’m trying to say here….

    Is that it is impossible to
    completely regenerate our bodies

    for the offensive type warriors
    like the two of us….

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  23. #73
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Shiek927's Avatar
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    Re: Obervations and questions after re-reading manga

    Priscilla is an offensive warrior, so says the databooks I'm fairly certain...

    As for Offensive/Defensive dynamic, I probably do have to accept that it's written into the person's character deeply, even though these things can't truly be predicted and may not take growth and change into account :/

    That translations is interesting....it feels....I don't know, less certain then what I've heard before - Ophelia sounds more pensive and unsure in those words, then she does in the others I've heard.
    You know, there are as many ways to live as there are people in this world...and each one deserves a closer look.

  24. #74
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Goral's Avatar
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    Re: Obervations and questions after re-reading manga

    Joking about Miata and Cassandra made me realize that Miata is unique in another way - she has a peculiar taste when it comes to food and she's more hungry than your usual Claymore. I wonder if Yagi will ever explain why that is and how come she has this sixth sense. Clearly, she's a totally different species than AEs and looks like a Claymore in every possible way (along with stigmata). Otherwise we would hear some comments/questions coming from Clarice/ghosts/father Vincent who saw her naked. Any thoughts? Or maybe links to older discussions on this subject that I don't remember (I remember discussions and speculations whether she was more of a Claymore or AE or something else but not about her hunger)?

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    Registered User 初心者/ Shoshinsha / Beginner Shelter's Avatar
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    Re: Obervations and questions after re-reading manga

    I've always assumed Miata is what she is for two reasons:

    1) She's younger than usual for most of the warriors, and possibly the newest in her generation. When Clarice took her in, I felt that Clarice was meant to fulfil a psychological bond with her (at least in my interpretation) in the same way that yoki-synchronisation is meant to ground Claymores on the verge of awakening. That Miata and Clarice are always depicted as a pair seems to hint that Miata needs Clarice around to be fully human.

    2) She's still discovering her abilities and, adding onto the above point, is a bit unstable. I guess if someone is still a bit unhinged, it would explain her hunger, in this case, to be mothered by Clarice. I'm thinking of some female Oedipal complex.

    I don't have a concrete explanation for her hunger (it could've been mentioned, but I've overlooked it). But it's worth nothing that Claymores in Miata's generation seem to be more diverse in terms of their skill sets and abilities. With the revelation of the twins, it also seems that, prior to its fall, the Organisation seemed to be experimenting with girls who were much younger.

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