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Thread: Obervations and questions after re-reading manga

  1. #121
    MangaHelper 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Utsune's Avatar
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    Re: Obervations and questions after re-reading manga

    This is extremely helpful Goral, thank you The confirmation I needed was whether Irene did mention about having two arms would make a difference against Rafaela, and this translation confirms it.

    Onto your link. The first two pages, where most of the explanation is, are all very accurate as far as I can tell. Other than that, three pointers I would take note of. Two of which are very minor things, nothing big at all. The one on Page 70 may be more of a source of controversy because of the choice of wording.

    [Page 70 - last panel] English Ophelia: "We're just not made that way."
    More trans-literally correct: "In a sense, our origins/structures are just different."
    They've excluded in the English the words "In a sense" (ある意味) Means quite a lot to me to have these three words, but I guess they've ignored them for a smoother flow. Also, (成り立ち) means origin or structure, not necessarily referring to being "made that way" in the fact that the Org made them to be.

    [Page 118 - last panel] In the English, Irene refers to her technique as "evil." However, the Japanese here is ろくでもない, meaning "worthless" or "good-for-nothing." Also, Irene says "You must be a monster [to use this technique without......]" but in the Japanese it is clearer that she is talking about Clare. More precisely, she says, "To use this good-for-nothing technique without...... you must be a monster, too"

    [Page 141 - last panel] English Irene: "I needed to create a fresh one on you."
    Japanese Irene: "Sorry/excuse me but I needed to create a fresh one on you." Just a minor one that adds a bit of character to Irene.
    Last edited by Utsune; February 15, 2013 at 03:50 AM. Reason: Adding a potential translation for 成り立ち

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  3. #122
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Goral's Avatar
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    Re: Obervations and questions after re-reading manga

    I can't believe no one has asked this question before... What do you think Clare's real name is? By "real" I mean the one she got from her parents before they were killed (she got the name Clare from Teresa when she was at least 10 years old). I doubt we will ever find out but if I had a chance to ask Yagi about it I would (he would probably say it's best to leave it to our imagination or that it's irrelevant but still...).
    Last edited by Goral; March 31, 2014 at 11:24 AM.

  4. #123
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    Re: Obervations and questions after re-reading manga

    Quote Quote:
    What do you think Clare's real name is?
    I thought that Clare was her real name.

    Spoiler show


    When Teresa called her "Clare", she got really excited and happy. Then Teresa asks if that is her real name and she nods. And then Teresa goes on to say that their parents must have really loved them to give them those names.

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    Re: Obervations and questions after re-reading manga

    Quote Originally Posted by Goral View Post
    I can't believe no one has asked this question before... What do you think Clare's real name is? By "real" I mean the one she got from her parents before they were killed (she got the name Clare from Teresa when she was at least 10 years old). I doubt we will ever find out but if I had a chance to ask Yagi about it I would (he would probably say it's best to leave it to our imagination or that it's irrelevant but still...).
    It is Claire´s real name.
    Teresa was just lucky guessing it.
    ...
    On another observation I made, but How is it that Riful is the only being that can take serious head damage while in human form and not be worse to wear later?
    (Sword strike from Claire, Half her head bitten off by a feeder...)
    I know she rifles the deck with herself, but wouldn´t that mean that she is never in human form and is always in her awakened form at all times?
    Only posing as a child with her shapeshifting tentacles?
    Or did I miss something here?
    Otherwise she would just been dead from the first head strike...
    And Priscilla killed her through stabbing her in the chest. So her brain was down there?
    Does it mean that Riful never was in human form to begin with and the closest we saw to it was the one she had in full octopus mode?
    Since it´s said that the aging process for a awakened being ends by maturity, then it wouldn´t make sense that Riful is the only awakened one we seen that doesn´t fulfill that criteria...
    Does it mean that she was a adult hiding within the body of a child just for fun?
    I am confused...

  7. #125
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Goral's Avatar
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    Re: Obervations and questions after re-reading manga

    Do you honestly think that out of all names that exist in Claymore world (some really, really weird ones) Teresa guessed the right one? Can you even point out one example where we see two characters having exact same name (another interesting observation, don't you think)? Because I can't *(and we have at least 100 unique names here).

    Anyway, my interpretation is that Clare nodded because she liked the name that Teresa picked. But I'm pretty sure she would be equally content if Teresa picked Dietrich, Rachel or even Rubella :P.
    Last edited by Goral; March 31, 2014 at 12:07 PM.

  8. #126
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    Re: Obervations and questions after re-reading manga

    No, I am pretty sure that Clare was her name the whole time. Teresa guessed it because she was named after Teresa the goddess. Clare was the name of the other goddess. It is not hard to believe that Clare was her real name.

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  10. #127
    MangaHelper 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Utsune's Avatar
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    Re: Obervations and questions after re-reading manga

    Lol Rubella...

    I think on a symbolic level, Clare is not her name prior to being saved by Teresa. It would be kinda ironic to have the same name in a past filled with darkness and despair as the 'new life' bestowed upon her by her saviour Teresa. It's a very clear cut between the two lives she's had, not to mention throughout the manga, Clare is keen on inheritance of wills and whatnot... while it isn't impossible that Clare is her first name, I highly doubt Yagi would choose to have it that way.

    (I'm also personally reluctant to call her previous name her 'real' name just because being 'Clare' is a completely different saga in her life story.)

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    Re: Obervations and questions after re-reading manga

    I think Clare is her real name. Teresa guessing it correctly demonstrates the bond between them and provides them with their first moment of real connection. It's also her only remaining connection to her parents. Clare is someone who holds on to people, if she loved her family as I suspect she did she wouldn't give up the name they gave her.

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    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member metalia's Avatar
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    Re: Obervations and questions after re-reading manga

    I think her real name is Clare, didn't Teresa say something like: "oh, are you saying that's your REAL name?" - She did in my translation!

  15. #130
    MangaHelper 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Utsune's Avatar
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    Re: Obervations and questions after re-reading manga

    Oh shoot, really really sorry, I just assumed the nodding to be one of those Japanese yes-for-no no-for-yes thing and never put a thought into it, I'm changing my stance. I think Clare is indeed her real name.

    The order of events goes as follows:
    - T: "Well I'm gonna give you a name. How does 'Clare' sound?"
    - C: *le stare*
    - T: "Hmm? Are you telling me that's your real name?"
    - C: *nod nod nod nod nod nod nod nod*
    - T: "Oh really? That's cool."
    - T: "It's the name of one of the goddess twins (who's beautiful and pure and filled with love etc etc), btw the other twin's called Teresa, that's my name."
    - T: "[They] probably had [the goddess] in mind when they named [you/me?] (((something along the lines of 'wanting to raise them as beautiful as the goddesses')))
    - T: "We're both loved by our parents."
    - T: "Yo don't cry."
    - T: "[lit:] The wish of your dead parents will always remain in that name."

    Have no idea how and why I totally overlooked it at first but that's mystery solved for me

    Other than displaying her parents' love behind that name, I think having been named Clare before she even meets Teresa signifies the predestined connection between the two, and bla bla all that cringy fate-related stuff you'll find in Shakespeare and whatnot which I'm not gonna go into, lol, but you get my point. Again, sorry for my absolutely ignorant last post above.

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  17. #131
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    Re: Obervations and questions after re-reading manga

    Thanks for going in-depth on that scene. It's, like, the ONLY time Clare's parents get mentioned and it reenforces the whole names-are-important thing Yagi has going on.

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    MangaHelper 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Utsune's Avatar
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    Re: Obervations and questions after re-reading manga

    Oh yeah btw, I think I'm the slow one here but I wonder if you peeps remember the existence of numbering and period number for the warriors,

    eg. Teresa = Warrior #182, period #77

    If I remember correctly, there were different translations all over the place with the term 'period' (generation, period, class) so just to clarify *my* interpretation of this. I think it's kind of like "The XXth (graduating) class" (apparently the FUNimation dub also uses 'class,' although it might sound a bit strange in English, I think it is appropriate.)

    So, every so often, the Org will take in trainees, Teresa is in the 77th class together with a handful of new trainees. By the end, only a couple or so will be able to graduate. There, they become official warriors of the Org. If you remember from the extra scene, there is this trainee who graduates alongside Clare after their final exam (I'm assuming Elena is in the same graduating class as Clare but not sure if I've missed it, but she isn't in the extra scene?) So basically, the message I get from that is, I'm guessing you only get around 2 to 3 graduates from every class on average.

    I honestly have no idea how they organise the earlier generations, but it is possible that they do not have 47 warriors at one time back in the days. (There are maybe 30+ male warriors, I guess you could give it a count from the Pieta chapters, but it is possible the number doesn't go up to 47 for the first few gens.) Let's just say the first few classes also follow this rule, then 182 divided by 77 = 2.36, meaning if Teresa is the 182nd official Claymore, then there have been 2.36 warriors graduating on average ever since Class #1.

    Clare is of the 150th class, so she's probably around the 350th official warrior down the line.

    Do tell me what you think of this.

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    Re: Obervations and questions after re-reading manga

    Yes I do remember that, I've given it fairly considerable thought and suspect it might be Yagi not thinking timing through (have you noticed he's not mentioned warrior numbers since?). Among other things, her being the 182nd warrior would imply that not much time has passed between her and the male generation (who would presumably have counted for at least 47 warriors).
    Last edited by Number A; April 12, 2014 at 03:38 AM.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Goral's Avatar
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    Re: Obervations and questions after re-reading manga

    @Utsune
    That's a very interesting topic you've picked up. We've discussed about it a bit in various places before, most recently (not counting your post of course) here: http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...=1#post2954205 (go few pages back to see the start of the discussion).

    tl;dr
    We think alike.

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  23. #135
    MangaHelper 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Utsune's Avatar
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    Re: Obervations and questions after re-reading manga

    Ah, thanks for the link. I agree with your estimation since I've more or less arrived at the same numbers and result. But there're several points to take note of with these kinds of numbers and I'll try to put them into perspective. Of course these values would change depending on what conditions you impose on the calculations, and may not hold in certain situations (eg. special events like the near-destruction of the Org by Luciella, Teresa's longevity, Rosemary's longevity etc.) I will try to point out some interesting implications as well.


    - Assumption: The time span between Teresa's death and Clare's final examination as a trainee looks like ~8 years for my guess (Clare=10yo @ Teresa's death; Clare=18yo @ exam.)

    - In perspective: 150 classes in 100 years means ~1 class for every 0.66 years ('class' as in 'class with surviving trainees aka graduates.' Between Yuma class#129 and Clare class#150 there are 21 classes, which is 14 years difference.)

    - By this calculation, Teresa has been a ranked Claymore for 40 years (!!???) because: 150-77 = 73, which is ~48 years, minus the 8 years between the death of Teresa and Clare's final exam. If 40 years sounds a lot to you, then this is when you would want to consider imposing some special conditions and play around with the numbers, such as Clare not immediately becoming a ranked Claymore after her final exam (add a few years), or that for some reason more trainees get to graduate and receive a rank post-Teresa (so more classes within a certain time frame. Luciella and Hysteria running amok are two events that could relate.) Also might want to consider: war began ~100 years ago but I doubt MiB activity+influence on the Island started immediately after ---> So assuming a span of 80 years instead, you can shave 10 years off Teresa's age lol. On the other hand, you want to consider the possibility that Claymore don't age like normal humans, and they will retain a young appearance until death due to Dragon race infusion or whatever you call it, like your typical Saiyan from DBZ. In conclusion to this point, I think Yagi wouldn't not have (double negative, i.e. must have!) considered Teresa's reign as a Claymore (not necessarily as a No.1). When he writes that Teresa is from class #77, and then making it so Clare is from class #150, these two numbers span across half the Claymore history from the outlook.

    - As a counter to the number of years above, with 100 years of Claymore history, there would have been 12 more classes after Teresa's death before Clare's class #150 (12 classes in 8 years' time, this is assuming Clare receives a rank right after her final exam as a graduate of class #150 @18yo); with 80 years of history, there would be 15 more classes after her death. Note that in either case, this means (if the average values apply here) Yuma and Miria overlaps Teresa's period...! But this is unlikely as Ophelia doesn't seem to know Irene. Assuming Ophelia at least joins rank at the same time as Miria (around class #127) we need to make it so Teresa's service falls just before it. Maximum 126-77 = 49 classes = ~26 to 32 years (as opposed to ~30 to 40 years.) Working backwards from Clare's graduation, 150-126 = 24 classes, which equates to ~13 to 16 years. Clare would at least be in her mid-20s (as oppose to 18yo in my first assumption) by the time she receives her rank if Teresa were to have lasted ~26 to 32 years as a Claymore. Clare would be much older than 30 or near 40 even if Teresa were in service for 10 years, twice the length of a typical No.1. This is all assuming there is a 6 to 8 month time frame between classes.

    - My guess for the number of No.1s throughout history is between 16 and 30 (at least 16 so that the MiB statement regarding the list of No.1s sounds more accurate. He says something along the lines of "There's no end to listing the No.1s" after listing 8 of them, but also says, "the ones that are especially powerful are more or less listed.") Again, the purpose of my post here is to put things into perspective according to these (*overly simplified*) calculations, so on average:

    (a) - - - - - 16 No.1s in 100 years = 1 in every 6.25 years
    - - - - - - - - - - 1 in every 9.4 classes, 1 in every 22 Claymore

    (b) - - - - - 30 in 100 years = 1 in every 3.3 years
    - - - - - - - - - - 1 in every 5 classes, 1 in every 12 Claymore

    (c) - - - - - 16 No.1s in 80 years = 1 in every 5 years
    - - - - - - - - - - 1 in every 9.3 classes, 1 in every 22 Claymore

    (d) - - - - - 30 in 80 years = 1 every 2.5 years
    - - - - - - - - - - 1 in every 4.7 classes, 1 in every 11 Claymore

    (the word "year" in "1 in every xx years" means how long they reign as No.1 for, but it is also possible to view it as the average number of years before a Claymore trainee destined to become No.1 appears. Note that I didn't say "potentially" but "destined.")

    (182/77 = 2.36. I have assumed an average of 2.3 graduates per class. As an aside, note that there is a possibility warriors from the same class do not necessarily take the same final exam, an excuse just in case Elena is from class #150 as well. Clare says they entered the Org at the same time, but it is also possible Elena has taken another exam and graduates earlier or later than Clare in a different class.)

    Beware, these numbers do not reflect the average power level (i.e. you probably won't get a Hysteria-level No.1 in every 15 Claymore.) It is highly likely (especially evident from Daae's revelation) that they get certain control over how often they make No.1 level Claymore. Anyways, the way I see it, Claymore move up and down in ranks, so if you take the first example, you have 2 destined No.1s in 44 Claymore on average, which makes complete sense. You can also see that the average length of service of a *destined* No.1 Claymore is reflected by the number of destined No.1s in the ranks at the same time. Eg., For the first example, the number of years of service for a No.1 would be twice of 6.25 on average, which is 12 years. It would also be 12 years (4 x 3.3) in example (b), and 10 years in examples (c) and (d). Of course, this only applies to those who actually climb up a long way in ranks, notably Roxanne (Riful also climbs up in rank.) Some No.1s start off high (Luciella, Alicia, and potentially Priscilla.)

    Miria is from class #127. She achieves her highest rank in the span of at least 20 classes (~10-12 years.) This completely agrees with the above calculations. (The above calculations are for No.1 Claymore, but the average number should work with most other ranks: Yuma has stayed alive for 21 classes as a low rank warrior; Miria has stayed alive for 23 classes as a potentially high rank warrior.)

    If anyone has actually read up to this point, do tell me whether the above points seem valid or not to you, and I probably have forgotten to include some important considerations when doing the above estimations. My brain has kinda exploded and scattered all over the place and hence ranted on for too long.






    tl;dr
    The maths is funky. Some calculations make sense, the rest don't necessarily not make sense, though there seems to be certain events that we don't know about which is the cause of somewhat unexpected results (specifically Teresa's age.) But there is a reason for Yagi making Teresa a class #77 Claymore and Clare class #150, when the Claymore system spans over the course of up to 100 years.

    ---------- Post added at 01:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:32 PM ----------

    If I had seen that discussion sooner, it would have saved me a lot of the trouble thinking about this topic myself, too bad I joined MH much later

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