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Thread: Offensive VS Defensive in Bubble Chart

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    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member
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    Offensive VS Defensive in Bubble Chart

    1. Lets assume everything that is of offensive category in the Claymore universe falls in to the Red bubble.

    2. Lets assume everything that is of defensive category in the Claymore universe falls in to the Green bubble.

    It would look something like this, the overlaped area in the middle would be things that both offensive and defensive claymore types have access to.

    Fig 1.0


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Now lets look at a low ranking offensive type claymore, lets just say this is Clare when she first started out as an example.
    We can assume that the blue area is the combine yoki aura and skill of what Clare had.

    Fig 1.1


    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Lets also look at one of the most common skills we seen, regeneration.
    We can see from the chart, that regeneration is a defensive type skill.

    Fig 1.2


    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    To simplify since basic regen, regen and instant regen is all the same skill. We'll just combine it all, the greater the yellow area the claymore covers, the better she use the skill.

    Fig 1.3



    Example Clare:

    Clare starting out, not much to look at. However we do know she have some basic regeneration abilities like being able to heal that big gaping hole in her stomach.

    Fig 2.0


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Next, we have Clare half awaken after the Darkness In Paradise arc. We can see that Clares overall yoki got a big boost, represented by an increase in the size of her bubble on the chart.

    Fig 2.1


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Next part we will jump right to the Quicksword. I'm skipping PYSA due to the fact that I don't know where that skill would fall in to. However we do know Quicksword is a high level offensive technique or at least we can assume +90% that it is. The next chart shows that Clare after har power up from half awakening is able to learn the Quicksword. However also note that she was only able to do it at 10% of Ilena's fully mastered quicksword.

    Fig 2.2


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    After Ilena cut off her own right arm and gaved it to Clare her Quicksword got a boost from 10% to 50%. This part is very significant for the chart because we can't assume Clare got a yoki boost overall to enlarge the size of her bubble. This was presented however with the change of the shape of her bubble, a very important difference.

    Fig 2.3


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    This would be my current interpretation of what Clare's overall power would be like. Notice that she got another power up after 7 years of training. She can fully master the Windcutter however she's at 90% of Quicksword and not 100%. I also included PYSA and Yoki Sync., she's more skilled at Yoki Sync then PYSA. Largely because I think PYSA is harder then Yoki Sync, since she done it with Jean on first attempt!


    Fig 2.4 Clare



    Example Miria:

    Here we have Miria while fighting "Spiderman". Noticed the shape of the Phantom Mirage, I believe this best reflect that it have a huge power boost once the "unlimited step threshold" has been achieved.

    Fig 3.0


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Next, we have Miria at the current state. Noticed that her overall bubble has gotten bigger to reflect the increase in yoki, and training for Improved Phantom Mirage. She has also gone over the "unlimited step threshold" after learning the improved phantom mirage.

    Fig 3.1


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Lastly, we have Miria after she releases to near 80% when fighting Hysteria. We can see the increase in her yoki translate to the overall size of her bubble so she can use all of what Phantom Mirage technique offers.

    Fig 3.2



    Example Hysteria:

    Now we have Hysteria, one of the most powerful #1 of all times. Noticed her huge bubble to represent her power and her Elegant Step technique on the far edge of the bubble. This is to show that the Elegant Step is a very advance technique, a novice can not begin to learn it.

    Fig 4.0






    NOW FOR SOMETHING TOTALLY INSANE!!!

    Last edited by Khorr; January 13, 2012 at 10:24 PM.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member HegemonKhan's Avatar
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    Re: Offensive VS Defensive in Bubble Chart

    Wow Khorr.... I think you made a huge breakthrough!

    Excellent idea of using the model of bubble charts !!!!

    I'll try to make my own, of where I'd put all the characters, thank you for the perfect idea-model for this (bubble charts!)

    --------------

    maybe you should have a 3rd Bubble:

    "Neutral"

    for Abilities that aren't really Offensive or Defensive, so they're not really technically "both", but can be used for both, lol.

    Neutral
    ...|
    ...O
    ../..\
    O....O -- Defensive
    |
    Offensive

    -------------------------------------

    P.S.

    where'd or How'd you do those bubble (Venn? right?) diagrams?
    Last edited by HegemonKhan; January 13, 2012 at 04:17 PM.
    "The internet’s perfect for all manner of things, but productive discussion ain’t one of them. It provides scant room for debate and infinite opportunities for fruitless point-scoring: the heady combination of perceived anonymity, gestated responses, random heckling and a notional “live audience” quickly conspire to create a “perfect storm” of perpetual bickering." - Charlie Brooker

    "I hold the wolf by the ears, I am in a dangerous situation and dare not let go" -an old saying in Latin

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    Re: Offensive VS Defensive in Bubble Chart

    Quote Originally Posted by HegemonKhan View Post
    Wow Khorr.... I think you made a huge breakthrough!

    Excellent idea of using the model of bubble charts !!!!

    I'll try to make my own, of where I'd put all the characters, thank you for the perfect idea-model for this (bubble charts!)

    --------------

    maybe you should have a 3rd Bubble:

    "Neutral"

    for Abilities that aren't really Offensive or Defensive, so they're not really technically "both", but can be used for both, lol.

    Neutral
    ...|
    ...O
    ../..\
    O....O -- Defensive
    |
    Offensive

    -------------------------------------

    P.S.

    where'd or How'd you do those bubble (Venn? right?) diagrams?
    I was thinking about that but, I think stuff like that should be just in its own bubble outside of Offensive/Defensive bubble. Stuff also includes things like tentacle blades, flying, harden skin...etcc.. stuff that are unique to ABs but Claymores have no access to.

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    Re: Offensive VS Defensive in Bubble Chart

    Actually.. I was more thinking:

    "Neutral" = Yoki Sensing Abilities (ex's. PYSA or Yoki Focusing) and/or Yoki Abilities (ex. Yoki Manipulation) - (as these are "neutral", they're not really offensive nor defensive, but can be used for both, hehe. Also, with my theory-understanding, some of the Abilities and Sword Techniques use-require Yoki Sensing Abilities and/or Yoki Abilities, such as Nina's "magical" Shadow Chaser/Hunter Sword Technique or Clare's Projected Quick Sword... ignoring the Arm Extension explanation for Clare anyways... not sure if this can also be used to explain Nina's however, lol)

    though a 3 bubble diagram would get really messy... we'd have to increase the scale... to be able to see the labels.. lol
    Last edited by HegemonKhan; January 14, 2012 at 01:55 AM.
    "The internet’s perfect for all manner of things, but productive discussion ain’t one of them. It provides scant room for debate and infinite opportunities for fruitless point-scoring: the heady combination of perceived anonymity, gestated responses, random heckling and a notional “live audience” quickly conspire to create a “perfect storm” of perpetual bickering." - Charlie Brooker

    "I hold the wolf by the ears, I am in a dangerous situation and dare not let go" -an old saying in Latin

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    Re: Offensive VS Defensive in Bubble Chart

    pretty diagrams! how did you make it? enlighten us so we can rule the world with bubble charts..

    Quote Originally Posted by HegemonKhan View Post
    though a 3 bubble diagram would get really messy... we'd have to increase the scale... to be able to see the labels.. lol
    just put numbers in it and below explanation of those numbers...

    but there are 3 bubbles there, if i see it correctly all white area is neutral (or none)


    for now just one thing
    am i correct in this?

    - technique can be pure D, pure O, both, or none
    - techniques out of those circles are those which are none
    - technique can be more D or O than other (represented by amount of space it takes up from D/O circle)

    - there is something like FULL POTENTIAL of a technique - represented by 'full potential circle'
    - summary of all 'full potential circle' of O techniques makes the O circle
    - the more you master a technique, the more space you get inside of 'full potential circle'
    - if you fully master technique, you cant access more D/T stuff without learning different technique

    - if you fully master all D techniques you cant be more DT

    - awakened Priscilla or Teresa have access to ALL D and O possible techniques
    - if you occupy all the space(even the white) you are god

    now - why Hysteria's diagram goes out of the D/O circle?

    - if i am correct then overally one person can be more D than other , more O than other, also both D and O if you take up some space from both circles and none if you dont have any
    Last edited by spit; January 14, 2012 at 05:18 PM.

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    Re: Offensive VS Defensive in Bubble Chart

    Quote Originally Posted by Spit
    but there are 3 bubbles there, if i see it correctly all white area is neutral (or none)
    No, I meant by 3 bubbles as in 3 original starting 3 bubbles, one at each vertex of a triangle placement, and so they all overlap each other, you can see it here:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venn_diagram

    (on the left side, you can change the language too, I think they have "slovakian", slovic? Or, do you have-use other native language?)

    .
    Last edited by HegemonKhan; January 14, 2012 at 02:49 PM.
    "The internet’s perfect for all manner of things, but productive discussion ain’t one of them. It provides scant room for debate and infinite opportunities for fruitless point-scoring: the heady combination of perceived anonymity, gestated responses, random heckling and a notional “live audience” quickly conspire to create a “perfect storm” of perpetual bickering." - Charlie Brooker

    "I hold the wolf by the ears, I am in a dangerous situation and dare not let go" -an old saying in Latin

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    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member
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    Re: Offensive VS Defensive in Bubble Chart

    Quote Originally Posted by HegemonKhan View Post
    No, I meant by 3 bubbles as in 3 original starting 3 bubbles, one at each vertex of a triangle placement, and so they all overlap each other, you can see it here:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venn_diagram

    (on the left side, you can change the language too, I think they have "slovakian", slovic? Or, do you have-use other native language?)

    .

    i know what you meant, but neutral (= no D no O) is the white area - it is precisely what you wanted to use 3rd bubble for.. it doesnt have circular shape but there are 3 bubles all right... D,O and white = whats left D+O+white= U U - universum - everything (in this case every technique)

    its Slovak... and thx for your concern, but not only i dont prefer my native language (pc-relative stuff) i kinda hate it, its a bit of a stretch to say im doing it because i wanna learn english now, but still it is true...

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    Re: Offensive VS Defensive in Bubble Chart

    Quote Originally Posted by spit View Post
    - technique can be pure D, pure O, both, or none
    - techniques out of those circles are those which are none
    Everything Offensive would be in the Offensive Bubble.
    Everything Defensive would be in the Defensive Bubble.
    The area in middle are not both, it is just "a Bridge" area for the Off. and Def. to crossover.
    All skills are ether Off. or Def.

    White area is a big void, its to put skills that IDK if they fall in to Offensive or Defensive types, so I just put it in its own temprary bubble for now. I suppose if someone wants to put a bubble for Neutral stuff, like yoki sensing; that would be OK too since it wouldn't be in conflict with the theory behind the chart.

    Quote Quote:
    - technique can be more D or O than other (represented by amount of space it takes up from D/O circle)
    No or not really, D or O is determined by the position of the "Skill Bubble". Please see Fig 2.4 Clare. IMO Quicksword is more offensive then the Windcutter so it's position is more to the left inside the Off. Bubble, farther away from the Def Bubble. It would be harder for a Def type to learn the QS then the WC.

    The position inside the O/D bubble also represent how much "Total Power" (skill+yoki+experience+technique.... everything) it's r
    required for a Claymore to start using it. Closer to the center require less total power.

    Quote Quote:
    - there is something like FULL POTENTIAL of a technique - represented by 'full potential circle'
    - summary of all 'full potential circle' of O techniques makes the O circle
    - the more you master a technique, the more space you get inside of 'full potential circle'
    - if you fully master technique, you cant access more D/T stuff without learning different technique

    - if you fully master all D techniques you cant be more DT
    Something like that, but if we list every single Offensive and Defensive skills then match a claymore up to it. The circle would look like swiss cheese with lots of empty bubbles. This is why I only put in the "skill bubble" for the relevant character.

    Quote Quote:
    - awakened Priscilla or Teresa have access to ALL D and O possible techniques
    - if you occupy all the space(even the white) you are god
    Yes, 52% Teresa and Awaken Priscilla have enough "Total Power" to master everything if they bother to learn it.
    The white void stretches out to infinity, only god can occupy infinity. A 100% Fully Awaken Teresa would be an enormous size blue bubble with lots of empty white holes, each one for the skill that she never bother to learn or haven't been invented yet during her era like the Phantom Step.

    Quote Quote:
    now - why Hysteria's diagram goes out of the D/O circle?
    Because her power in that area goes byond what her skill "elegant step". She has mastered the "elegant step" but if there are some way that skill can be even more powerful, she would be able to access the new power right away. Her protential exceeds the skill itself.

    Quote Quote:
    - if i am correct then overally one person can be more D than other , more O than other, also both D and O if you take up some space from both circles and none if you dont have any
    That's right, you re ether D or O. The person start out at ether the center of Def bubble or Off Bubble, nowhere else. The bubble grows when the total power of the claymore grows. The bubble changes shape when the claymore is aiming to master a skill beyond her current power level. This is why it takes far less power for a Def type to master all regeneration but takes an offensive type of Pricilla level to do the same.




    Oh yeah, I used Adobe Illustrator to make the chart.
    Last edited by Khorr; January 14, 2012 at 07:11 PM.

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    Re: Offensive VS Defensive in Bubble Chart

    So what about Jean, who got roughly the same injury as Clare did, but dies from it ( I know she doesn't die primarily from that, but she says that it is a fatal wound anyways). Wouldn't this mean that each warrior's bubble can still be on a certain side, but may also be able to be more closer towards the defensive side, or maybe that it could be more of an oval shape? Either way though, this is still a great way to look at it.
    Last edited by JAYAB123; May 30, 2014 at 10:26 PM.

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