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Thread: Obervations and questions after re-reading manga

  1. #16
    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member colonywars's Avatar
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    Re: Obervations and questions after re-reading manga

    Quote Originally Posted by Goral View Post
    What is the difference in age between you two? Maybe you will catch up to him? Also 4 inches isn't that much, that's about 10 cm (10,16 cm to be exact). The difference isn't humongous and Zaki was of about Clare's height (Clare is 170 cm high) and about 20 cm (8 inches) higher than Raki as a kid. But Raki was about 20 cm higher than Renee who was at least 170 cm high. Sure, physical activity might have played a role here but IMO it's a bit much. Although it's all debatable and it's possible, as I've stated at the start most of these points aren't worth much.
    Hello

    I have a pure hypothesis, which is against laws of medicine, but it is does not matter since whole manga is just a fantasy story.

    First of all I will remind My own quote: "Hym... After 7 years and even more (about 8 to 10 ?) since Raki was left alone by Clare... I really don't know any kind of scents attractants (even animal pheromones) that could last on Human skin, clothes, for so long time. Usually after some showers and with skin growth rate after 3 to 6 weeks scent is totally gone. Maybe this "scent" was in something that Clare gives Raki and belongs to Her for longer that they know with which other. But even then for that period of time it is rather impossible. But as We saw Yagi gives Us more spectacularly things, so there is no other option left like to (with some kind of disbelieve) that it is really true and was necessarily to push action forward. Or maybe AB like Priscilla can detect single pheromone molecule in concentration 1 / 100 000 000 000 ? Then I like to employ Her instead of Gas Chromatograph which sometimes I use in my work With that high sensitivity She beats it on by KO."

    Then:

    Quote Originally Posted by rcfalcon
    Yes, this is true, but Priscilla was able to sense Clare/Teresa's presence on Raki without her being present.
    Quote Originally Posted by HegemonKhan
    Obviously the "Scents", either as odor from a being or the odor from their yoki, isn't like most normal scents/odors, as has been pointed out they linger on for quite a while. The "scents" or odors in Claymore is more like half-life radiation in how long it lasts or in that it doesn't disappear, hehe
    Quote Originally Posted by rcfalcon
    I don't think of it as scents in the traditional sense. More like yoki or other force rather than say pheremonal or particulate smell, which, as pointed out, wouldn't last long enough.
    Quote Originally Posted by jamie95403
    I think everyone's hypothesis on the scent issue has something to be said for it. There should be no consensus or agreement, given the scant info in the manga, which points in every direction.

    Taking a tip from the Witcher series, perhaps Yoma is a microbe infection. In Scene 33, Clare tells Lucky to hold on to her, tight as possible, before she escapes Ophelia. Clare has her blood all over her body, which Lucky is exposed to.

    If a microbe is the agent for creating Yoma, there must be a variety of strains. The microbe that Teresa and Clare carry would produce a scent particular to that strain.

    Lucky's exposure at Gonal isn't enough to turn him into a Yoma. The infection on his skin would be a benign one---just enough to "carry" Clare's (and Teresa's!) scent.

    I personally don't believe Yagi intended any of the above---it's all imaginary like the series itself---but I couldn't resist :-)
    And on end of this reminiscence a small, last one piece of puzzles:

    "Lucky's exposure at Gonal isn't enough to turn him into a Yoma. The infection on his skin would be a benign one---just enough to "carry" Clare's (and Teresa's!) scent. Wrote by Jamie.

    But why not? Since in creation of Claymore Org literally put Flesh and Blood of Yoma into body of Human volunteer, so why not assume that Raki exposed on Clare pure blood was not infected by His bleeding wounds by this microbe, pathogen, and in time of His growth He become 1/32 or 1/64 Yoma? So He could be a little boosted by Clare pure 1/4 Yoma blood. Then His physical training with Easley makes Him develop this boost and evolve enough to be able to kill Yoma in Human shape, and it is still a quite achievement for human being, thus He was not able to sense Yoma, so this mutation goes not so deep inside. Maybe it was because just physical training without developing of others skills?

    Could He be? In manga Claymores looks for Me as perfect donors, without any kind of serological conflict They can exchange Their body parts, so why not goes a little far, and assume that Human implanted with Claymores blood also become with time a Claymore?

    Since Raki was in the beginning dark haired, and in last chapters He looks like typical Claymore, but with, yet, normal eyes, and then He was also impaled with Priscilla powerful forearm so He could also by this achieve some power of Yoma, thus that is why Org is so interested in Him, because They see a Human like Claymore, but did not created by Them. Also this is perfectly explain this "scent" thing which makes Priscilla crazy on single thought about it.

    So maybe that's why He grew stronger, taller and physically not similar to His brother killed by Yoma, which then took His identity and Human shape?

    Have a good day

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  3. #17
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member HegemonKhan's Avatar
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    Re: Obervations and questions after re-reading manga

    We know it works via NYs on Humans:

    when a NY eats a Human's brain, they gain that human's mind, memories, behaviors, mannerisms, experiences, knowledge, etc, and can now shape shift into that human's body.

    there is also that "female Claymore" NY which punched Clare through the stomach early in the manga chapters, did this NY kill a Claymore, and now it can body-shift into this female Claymore?

    also, why are Rosemary and Elena able to keep their Claymore forms???, when all other Awakeneds lose their Claymore forms and instead have their old human forms back (No silver eyes, no blond/light hair).

    -------------------------------------------------------

    but as to any other method (like what if a human eats NY flesh?), we don't know.

    there doesn't appear to be any concrete effect on Clare from having Irene's arm infused (Attached) to her shoulder, in terms of her body composition. No evidence of her being "1/8" Yoma or whatever now.

    so, personally, for me if "mutation" could occur so easily, by whatever means, than why would they need to do a major "implantation surgery"... ???

    why not just sneak some NY flesh into their food, and it mutates the human into a Claymore, why go through a major medical operation to create their Claymores or AFs ???
    Last edited by HegemonKhan; April 05, 2011 at 10:21 AM.

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  5. #18
    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member colonywars's Avatar
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    Re: Obervations and questions after re-reading manga

    Quote Originally Posted by HegemonKhan View Post
    We know it works via NYs on Humans:

    when a NY eats a Human's brain, they gain that human's mind, memories, behaviors, mannerisms, experiences, knowledge, etc, and can now shape shift into that human's body.

    there is also that "female Claymore" NY which punched Clare through the stomach early in the manga chapters, did this NY kill a Claymore, and now it can body-shift into this female Claymore?

    also, why are Rosemary and Elena able to keep their Claymore forms???, when all other Awakeneds lose their Claymore forms and instead have their old human forms back (No silver eyes, no blond/light hair).

    -------------------------------------------------------

    but as to any other method (like what if a human eats NY flesh?), we don't know.

    there doesn't appear to be any concrete effect on Clare from having Irene's arm infused (Attached) to her shoulder, in terms of her body composition. No evidence of her being "1/8" Yoma or whatever now.

    so, personally, for me if "mutation" could occur so easily, by whatever means, than why would they need to do a major "implantation surgery"... ???

    why not just sneak some NY flesh into their food, and it mutates the human into a Claymore, why go through a major medical operation to create their Claymores or AFs ???
    Hello

    Yes, You got right, but I totally forget about major example of Human implanted with Claymore flesh and blood which Clare is. And why this mutation in Raki case was so slow? Because there is maybe important how many Yoma flesh and blood You put into somebody As for Clare example that She was implanted with The Most Powerful Everliving Warrior and yet She must achieved Her levels longer than everybody else implanted with 1/2 Yoma and not 1/4 Yoma.

    So We can assume that by putting some pathogen to drinking water could also turns Humans in Claymores, but in what time? Weeks, months, years? Org does not have time to wait, They need weapon, thus also that created warriors without proper training and armament will be useless.

    Have a good day

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  7. #19
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member HegemonKhan's Avatar
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    Re: Obervations and questions after re-reading manga

    I personally have used virii to explain Yoma, Claymores, and Awakeneds hehe.

    this is an old topic, but you're new, so I'll give a brief recount of how why I use virii as a real world explaination of how Yoma in Claymore works, hehe:

    either the NY are the original source of Yoma or the original source of Yoma is actually a parasitic worm like virus, which they than used to create the NY (with or without humans as the host).

    so in terms of sci-fi, this explains Claymore well, if the see the change from Human into Claymore as a mutation (like in Resident Evil gaming/movie series or Parasite Eve gaming series, except Parasite Eve involves Mitochondria instead hehe, but it's a fascinating idea, of how the mitochondria is using our cells/bodies to create a super-god being, and to create a world that is perfect for it to live in, hehe. really neat sci-fi concepts in it, hehe).

    think of the Yoma flesh as an infection. The yoki is it's energy, the more energy the Yoma flesh has, the more the infection will spread (grow-reproduce).

    Human+NY flesh = mutates human into a Claymore, a "hybrid" Human+Yoma but having its own unique Claymore DNA (like how your child might be a "hybrid" of you and your wife, but it has its very own unique DNA, it is NOT merely a mixture of you and wife).

    but, that's only the "initial mutation" and there's actually another and "final mutation", becoming an Awakened

    10% YR = Yoma flesh infection (YFI) takes over their eyes
    30% YR = YFI takes over the face/head
    50% YR = YFI takes over the body
    80% YR = FYI takes over the brain/mind, and it's "final mutation" now occurs, creating an Awakened.

    this is obviusly ignoring the HA, to keep it simple and brief.

    and obviously if you take away the energy, the yoki, the YFI reverses, it "shrinks", it retracts.


    think of mold/mildew:

    it likes humidity, more humidity more it reproduces/grows/spreads

    and as we know, a great humid place is the shower/bath room, and we got the black mildew/mold around the shower/bath. the more we "feed" it with the hot water, the more it reproduces/grows. if we were to stop taking shower/baths, removing all water and heat, it would disappear or at least "shrink" as well

    so the same thing is going on with a Claymore and how much they YR, hehe

    so its the yoki that matters, its the yoki that increases or decreases the YFI.

    and what controls the yoki? the human brain!

    and in Clare's case, she has the addition of her YFI only being 1/4, meaning she can harness more of its power while still being able to control it! So, rather than her being 1/4 Yoma, making ehr weaker than other Claymores, it is actually making her more powerful than Claymores.

    the Claymores think that it's the Yoma flesh implanted into their bodies that makes them powerful. but, I theorize it's actually the yoki and their brains/minds, and that the human brain/mind is superior to that of the yoma's brain/mind, sorry for the insult Yomas, but you're more inferior-brained/mind than we humans are, hehe

    the "car" is the Yoma flesh

    the "engine" is the yoki

    the "ordinary or poor quality/grade fuel, and key/ignition/spark" is the Yoma brain/mind

    the "DIESEL/ROCKET fuel and key/ignition/spark" is the human brain/mind, hehe


    think of humans as the Host body for the Yoma.

    and what's quite myserious...

    is how well Human+Yoma synchronize with each other.

    mutual symbiotic relationship. no rejection. the NY gets the human "qualities" by eating/consuming/ingesting human flesh, and the Human gets the Yoma "qualities" by having Yoma (NY, Claymore, or Awakened) flesh implanted into their bodies.
    Last edited by HegemonKhan; April 05, 2011 at 01:16 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

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  9. #20
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Goral's Avatar
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    Re: Obervations and questions after re-reading manga

    @colonywars
    This idea that you and jamie95403 have presented, although unlikely is very interesting. Besides, Raki was living with Isley and Priscilla for a long time (he even slept with Priscilla and who knows what else he did) so he would be exposed to this hypothetical pathogen. No other human AFAWK lived long enough among youma/ABs without being eaten so it wouldn't be surprising that only Raki has shown signs of becoming someone more than a human. Kudos to both of you. There is one minor detail here though that makes it implausible. The scent Raki was carrying has completely disappeared with time (chapter 110, p. 4).
    ________________________________

    To my list of observations and questions I can add another two.

    21) Check out these pictures (use arrows on the sides to scroll through the pictures). In the first one Dae has mentioned about someone warping some facts regarding this unknown entity that was more powerful than AOs (chapter 110, vol. 20). In the second (chapter 18, vol. 4) Irene explicitly states that Priscilla has become #2 recently. But as you can see in pictures three and four (chapter 37, vol. 7) when Clare looked for it in the archives Priscilla wasn't #2. She hasn't been assigned #2 spot yet. So unless Clare didn't look in the archives but asked someone (Rubel for example) - which IMO is doubtful - it's a proof of Dae being right. Clare is not stupid and even if she asked someone instead of searching official documents I would think she would ask Teresa's and Priscilla's handler, i.e. Orsay and someone else in case Orsay wasn't assigned to Priscilla. Rubel might have made Priscilla look weaker by not telling she already was #2. Although in that case someone else than Rimuto would have to be the boss, otherwise I don't see how Rubel would be able to pull it off (who knows, maybe previous chief was demoted after the big failure of loosing #1-5). It also could be just a negligence on the scribe's/archivist's part.

    Although I think it's an interesting observation I don't think I'm right. I can't see a reason why Rubel would not want MiB to know that something greater than Abyssals was born. What could MiB do about it if they knew? Which makes me think that Dae suspected that there was a spy in the organization for a long time and now was a good chance to use Priscilla's arm to his advantage and make Rimuto investigate the matter even though the alteration of Priscilla's case was a lie and indeed the only reason they haven't heard about her was because she was under the radar this whole time and not much has changed in the deadlock between abyssals (which suggested that Priscilla wasn't that strong). Talk about being devious. That's why Rubel commented that "a tiresome fellow has returned". n other words Dae was bullshitting everyone to make them aware of a spy which he detected through other means (but didn't have any proof and didn't know who it was, which his little performance could help him with that, anyone who would start sniffing around just after his speech would be a main suspect, especially if it was someone who almost never visited him).

    To be honest there is one reason Rubel might have wanted to keep Priscilla's real power a secret. If MiB would know how powerful Priscilla was they would try to repeat the experiment and create another one. But the thing is - they considered Teresa as the strongest monster and didn't manage to create another one as powerful. They (Rubel at least) thought that Priscilla could be stronger than Teresa and yet they didn't make another one. So this suggests that the power of the warriors they make is quite random and strongly relies on the mental state of humans that are being used for hybridization.

    22) Somehow MiB can measure Claymore's powers rather accurately, even Priscilla's (and by that I mean they know she's better than Irene and could aim for #1 spot). But Priscilla has never released her powers until she met Teresa, so how? Can they still measure their youki just after hybridization? Or maybe they measure time they need to pass some test (kill youma etc.) or how many youma they can kill at one time? Or is it through the eye (but that would make them too dependent on her)?

    BTW, notice that when Teresa wasn't sure about the outcome of her next encounter with Prissy, Priscilla was still cloaked and Teresa couldn't sense her. Although later somehow she could tell Priscilla harbours a monster, which suggests that Teresa might have been the only Claymore able to sense cloaked Claymores under right circumstances and without interference of other Claymores.

    I think that Teresa could sense Priscilla, but because her youki was so suppressed it was jammed by Irene's, Noel's and Sophia's youki. If she met her alone in the woods were powerful claymores/AB wouldn't be in vicinity I'm sure she could sense her aura. Just like someone has great hearing and can normally hear a needle falling in the other room, because of a neighbour listening to the music on the full volume, he can't. If Teresa couldn't sense Priscilla at all her whole comment about Priscilla harbouring a monster would mean nothing.

    The fact she could sense cloaked or nearly cloaked Rafaela as a child makes it even more convincing (personally I think Rafaela was already cloaked, for reason why I think that read points below). Although we have too little information to conclude whether Teresa was better than Galatea in youki sensing I would like to point out two things that speak on behalf of Teresa:
    • Assuming I understood soul-link correctly the one holding the soul of the twin that awakens suppresses it's youki at all times (we've never seen Beth with golden eyes during this process, there is no "biki" sound and when Riful attacked Beth and she had to open her eyes they weren't gold). So Rafaela didn't start suppressing her youki after Luciella went rampage but earlier.
    • We know that training an eye takes time. Renee was around for quite some time but she wasn't complete and couldn't replace Galatea immediately (and even after she was complete, she was nowhere near her level). And yet Teresa as a CHILD could sense youki of a cloaked or nearly cloaked Claymore. If she was trained to become an eye I wouldn't be surprised (read: I'm sure) she would surpass Galatea even.

    So on the side note, those who think Teresa thought Priscilla will surpass her should read the manga again since once Teresa could actually sense Priscilla she knew who the boss was.

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  11. #21
    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member colonywars's Avatar
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    Re: Obervations and questions after re-reading manga

    Quote Originally Posted by Goral View Post
    @colonywars
    This idea that you and jamie95403 have presented, although unlikely is very interesting. Besides, Raki was living with Isley and Priscilla for a long time (he even slept with Priscilla and who knows what else he did) so he would be exposed to this hypothetical pathogen. No other human AFAWK lived long enough among youma/ABs without being eaten so it wouldn't be surprising that only Raki has shown signs of becoming someone more than a human. Kudos to both of you. There is one minor detail here though that makes it implausible. The scent Raki was carrying has completely disappeared with time (chapter 110, p. 4).

    and:

    BTW, notice that when Teresa wasn't sure about the outcome of her next encounter with Prissy, Priscilla was still cloaked and Teresa couldn't sense her. Although later somehow she could tell Priscilla harbours a monster, which suggests that Teresa might have been the only Claymore able to sense cloaked Claymores under right circumstances and without interference of other Claymores.

    and:

    Just like someone has great hearing and can normally hear a needle falling in the other room, because of a neighbour listening to the music on the full volume, he can't.

    and:

    So on the side note, those who think Teresa thought Priscilla will surpass her should read the manga again since once Teresa could actually sense Priscilla she knew who the boss was.
    Hello

    Thank You Goral, but most of work did jamie95403 and rcfalcon, I just put those pieces together, that is all And to references to chapter 110 Priscilla said, (exactly quoted):"Yes. But It's so small that it seems like it might disappear at any moment", but since Raki was stabbed and She also, this what was / is inside Raki (those Clare parasites?) could spread with blood and flesh to be more detectable. Thus She said also (exactly quoted):"It was only slightly there when We first met, and now it barely remains." It still could be weeks, months, years, but maybe this was disappear because amount of parasite was to small to survive with someone with normal immunological system... (A New Brilliant Theory ) And those physical changes in Raki may suggest that He was implanted with Yomas power, thus Clare blood and why He also Has Clare / Teresa scent for so long. Even Cid and Galk mentioned this in Rabona, that this little brat has become "freaking big" (not exactly quoted) I am also able to agree with HegemonKhan about virii, parasite infection, which cause mutation of Humans into Claymores.

    A New Brilliant Theory!!! Why Claymores seems to Me as universal donors? Maybe because in implantation process Org is destroying Their marrow, so Parasite is better tolerated and His presence may last forever. And that is why this mutation it is so large. Since Raki has normal immunological system this parasite, virus, He was implanted due Clare's blood makes Him evolve, but was also in time destroyed by Human White Cells. It is something like HIV but reversible when somebody is strong enough and was not treated with marrow suppression therapy to allow Virus to spread and do the mutation It is also perfectly explain why Org use blood and flesh as carrier. Because viruses can not survive in any other environmental than Humans tissues, blood, CSF, semen, etc. etc. So Org could not put it in water because virus will be destroyed, thus they can not spreading it on all humans in island and then even infected humans, but without marrow suppression will survive and cure them self naturally like against Flu It is good to have some medical knowledge, and I also mentioned here:

    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...23#post2337223

    About that I am personally interested in Claymores immunological system

    Then: about two others quotes I wrote in this post:

    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...25#post2366525

    About discrimination limits and My point was, that everything which have energy could be detected, but You must know what to search and be sensitive enough to catch this what You looking, smelling, watching at

    So when Your neighbor play loud music You can play Your music lauder to hear it (You booster what You want to hear) or You can use earphones to cut His music and hear directly just Yours (You cut background noises). And also You can use hearing aid to boost Your musics (You increase Your sensitivity) but then You make also increase level of noise which You wants to cut, so this is not a good idea. Something for something. You can also go and break down Your neighbor CD player, or ask Him to play His music quietly.

    In case of Yoki suppression You can go and ask Priscilla to awake, thus You will be not able to survive this You can be sensitive enough to feel Her Yoki, (like Teresa did, She was extremely sensitive one) even in Her cloak state, You can boost Your sensitivity but You will also strengthening noises which does not have any sense thus still You will not be able to sense what You need. Or You can try to break Her Yoki which means also death.

    And who was the Boss. Of course that Teresa since She was able to knock down almost awakened Priscilla to ground with only 10% of Yoki release. Thus I really want to see that fight with fully awakened Priscilla against Teresa. Thus We can only speculate who will then wins.

    But those above are pure hypothesis and speculations, so everybody feel free to argue

    Have a good day
    Last edited by colonywars; April 06, 2011 at 07:20 AM. Reason: Virus Buster (not Serge) but colonywars :p

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  13. #22
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member HegemonKhan's Avatar
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    Re: Obervations and questions after re-reading manga

    wait.... Goral, you just seemed to make the same case as I have been here: that the other BCs knew nothing about Priscilla at all, Rubel had secretly created and trained Claymore Prsicilla. Rubel had secretly injected her into Irene's execution squad to kill Teresa, and even as an awakened Priscilla has never been known by the other BCs.

    So, this would actually have been my point/case being made, not rcfalcon's, jamie's, nor colonywars as they didn't agree with this.

    So actually to correct the record, you seem to be making the same case that I've been making, if I understood your post correctly.

    -------------------------

    Goral,

    are you agreeing with me in full or in part, that:

    1. the other BCs completely were unaware of Priscilla's existence (from Human to Awakened), ?

    or

    2. only unaware of Awakened Priscilla, ?

    or

    3A. or they were aware of Priscilla and ch 113 is inconsistant with the rest of the manga?

    or

    3B. or you just don't think ch 113 is saying that the other BCs didn't know of Priscilla?

    or

    3C. or they had know of Priscilla, but Rubel did something for them to no longer be aware of Priscilla?

    -------------------

    do you think that Rubel in ch 113 was going to kill Dae, or maybe they're secretly partners... in some way possibly... as Dae seemed to have a really friendly chat with Rubel in ch 113, unless he can deceive just as well as Rubel...
    Last edited by HegemonKhan; April 06, 2011 at 10:10 AM.

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    Re: Obervations and questions after re-reading manga

    Quote Originally Posted by Goral View Post
    What is the difference in age between you two? Maybe you will catch up to him? Also 4 inches isn't that much, that's about 10 cm (10,16 cm to be exact). The difference isn't humongous and Zaki was of about Clare's height (Clare is 170 cm high) and about 20 cm (8 inches) higher than Raki as a kid. But Raki was about 20 cm higher than Renee who was at least 170 cm high. Sure, physical activity might have played a role here but IMO it's a bit much. Although it's all debatable and it's possible, as I've stated at the start most of these points aren't worth much.
    Well, I was born in 1955 and he was born in 1963 so I really don't think I'll be catching him up any time soon.

    Colonywars may be onto something with his virus mutation theory. Raki did have dark hair when he was younger and the older Raki has blonde hair. Most of the time the hair color shift is the other way round, light to dark. Gray hair doesn't count, hehehehe.

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  17. #24
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Goral's Avatar
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    Re: Obervations and questions after re-reading manga

    This is something my friend Piggy has noticed. In ES 2 when Miria cut Hilda's head it was bigger then her but later she was able to hold it in her hands (i.e. it returned to human form). How was it possible? We've seen AB's head being cut off several times (e.g. turtle AB from Pieta and Gonahl AB) and nothing like that happened. Maybe someone remembers other ABs with their heads cut off (male AB in slasher's arc had his head cut off but immediately after it was completely destroyed).


    A crazy theory came to my mind after reading my point about the Rubel's sunglasses. Assuming MiB aren't human or at least they have inhuman powers maybe each of them, after successfully joining MiB receives a gift in a form of enhanced abilities chosen by him. So Rubel could see (detect might be a better word) a wider electromagnetic spectrum than humans, for example in infrared. This would explain why he could find Rafeala or Clare or that he's always in the right place. Rimuto, with all the veins on his head and the fact he's a leader would have X-Men's Professor X like abilities (i.e. like Galatea), the one from ES 4 with strange, covered one eye could sense them (so he would have Galatea's abilities too but different set), Orsay would have Anastasia's abilities since he covered his whole head (), Ermita would have super strong and sharp teeth, Dae would have extraordinary regenerative powers (which would save him from dying after being exposed to sth that took his whole face off), etc.
    Last edited by Goral; April 24, 2011 at 10:08 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

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  19. #25
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member HegemonKhan's Avatar
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    Re: Obervations and questions after re-reading manga

    A possible explanation:

    well, Awakening (becoming an Awakened) doesn't happen until the Yoma flesh "fed/powered/growth'ed" by 80-100% YR infects/takes over/mutates their brain/mind.

    So, lop off the head, and you destroy the source of the Awakening, and so they revert/De-Awaken...

    ----------------

    conversely, we've seen how when NYs' heads are decapitated or destroyed, if they were in their Humanoid form/body, than they revert into their NY body/form.
    Last edited by HegemonKhan; April 24, 2011 at 06:13 PM.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Goral's Avatar
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    Confused Re: Obervations and questions after re-reading manga

    Quote Originally Posted by HegemonKhan View Post
    A possible explanation:

    well, Awakening (becoming an Awakened) doesn't happen until the Yoma flesh "fed/powered/growth'ed" by 80-100% YR infects/takes over/mutates their brain/mind.

    So, lop off the head, and you destroy the source of the Awakening, and so they revert/De-Awaken...
    Huh? It's pretty obvious that Claymores when they have their head cut off after the death have still the form of Claymores. Although we haven't seen any Claymore who released over 80% youki but less than 100% being killed, it's almost a sure thing. I wasn't talking about that. In ES2 Hilda was already an AWAKENED BEING, she wasn't near 100% youki release, she has already reached it. But after she was killed her head shrunk to it's original size and had human form (with hair etc.) but when Miria was cutting it, the head was bigger than her and non-human.

    See here:
    Spoiler show

    Unless I misunderstood you HK.
    __________________
    Quote Quote:
    (...) conversely, we've seen how when NYs' heads are decapitated or destroyed, if they were in their Humanoid form/body, than they revert into their NY body/form.
    I only remember Riful having her head cut and going to her awakened form but I doubt it was necessary for her since later, when she had her head bit off (and she commented it was the first time someone damaged her this much suggesting Clare did nothing) she didn't go to her awakened form because she didn't need to. Only when Alicia and Beth appeared she did it because these were not opponents she could take lightly.
    Since awakening requires much power usage I don't think it's a natural thing, to go from human to awakened form. It's just a better way to deal with a threat since when awakened one has access to all powers and abilities.

    Anyway, in all cases we've seen once AB was killed he didn't revert to human form but somehow Hilda did. Some examples can be seen here (I've chosen the ones where whole head was visible): http://min.us/m2Oa2mDUaeQzK#1
    There are some others (for example when Galatea fought ABs in Rabona or Anastasia and the rest fought ABs on the secret path) but these are the best IMO.

    And what does NY stand for? We really should have a topic with a glossary of abbreviations and stuff (for example what AF/AE/ZACS stand for and what are they, what's AB, AO, HA, PYS/P.E.P, etc. - you also seem to have your own abbreviations). Maybe it would help to standardize them and it would also help newer Claymore fans to know what's what. I did such a glossary in Polish with some friends on a Polish forum but my English is too bad to make it here.

    Edit:
    Another thing. In chapter 94 Alicia - a Claymore could change into AB faster than Riful from her human from even though the latter was already awakened. I find it odd to be honest.
    Last edited by Goral; May 05, 2011 at 02:34 PM. Reason: Added another observation, regarding chapter 94 this time

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member HegemonKhan's Avatar
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    Re: Obervations and questions after re-reading manga

    I was thinking of doing a "FAQ" for Claymore myself... but it would obviously be a big project... well, if it were to try to explain/deal with everything (what's a Claymore, an Awakened, an AB vs an AO, an AF/AE, and etc), and not just merely be a terminology glossary anyways.

    Yagi did create quite an extensive world in Claymore, which I feel, is in need of a "FAQ" for it, especially for new members, and a standardizing of terms would be nice as well for convenience. For example, some people call the Awakened rank 1's as ABs and the Awakened ranks 2-47 as AOs, versus most who call the Awakened rank 1's AOs, and the Awakened ranks 2-47's ABs. Now, for us who know Claymore well, we understand what they mean, but new people could get very mistaken by the use of different terms, as they wouldn't know that the person is talking about whatever from the surrounding context and not realizing that this person for example instead exchances AB and AO from how usually AO is applied to the rank 1's and AB to the ranks 2-47.

    ------------------------------------------------------

    NY = Normal Yoma = the generic humanoid (and weakest types of) Yomas that we see, especially in the beginning chapters.

    SNY = "Super" Normal Yoma = the bigger and more pwoerful NY seen in the early chapters with Clare+Raki+Galk+Cid in the Rabona Cathedral, which Clare mistakened as being a "Voaracious Eater", an Awakened, when it was just a SNY.

    -------------------------------------------------------

    Actually, it might be interesting in that death reveals their true biological form...

    NYs = Yomas

    Claymores = Claymores (neither Human nor Yoma, a very unique transitional state, which obviously the Org has realized to exploit, having more potential than their ending state of being an Awakened)

    Awakeneds = "Evolved Super-Humans"

    ------------------------------------------------

    First we need to determine this:

    Is Hilda in a Claymore appearance when she dies/is dying or in her Human appearance?

    Here's two ways that I would try to explain it:

    1. Awakened Hilda forced herself into her Claymore/Human form as she was dying and remained so when dead.

    We see other examples of this as well:

    Elena was an Awakened already (if I correctly understood the manga), yet she forced herself back into appearing as a Claymore for her friend Clare and to die as a Claymore ("To die with a human heart").

    Rosemary as well, was already an Awakened, yet she forced herself into a Claymore to "meet" with Teresa (for non-noble reasons, hehe, though Teresa wasn't fooled as she had already sensed Rosemary as an Awakened at least upon arrival if not from further away, hehe).

    2. Miria's presence or whatever caused Hilda to actually de-Awaken as she was dying and dead.

    Similar to how Raki influenced/motivated Clare to reduce her Yoki and stop from Awakening, which in turn made her into a HA. We got the other examples as well, with Galatea and Jean. So, maybe a form of Soul Link bonding is involved, maybe Hilda Soul Linked with Miria, and that Soul Link bond allowed Hilda to de-Awaken...

    --------------------------------------------------------

    whoa... I might have realized something...

    Do we have any evidence of Male Awakeneds having been Claymores?

    -Yes, Miria's recount of male Claymores on the continent...

    nevermind... I was going to say maybe ALL males truly never become Claymores, going straight from Human to Awakened. That only females enter this unique transitional state, called Claymore.

    ----

    Rather, it seems:

    Awakeneds can either/or-both take on their Human form (most common) or/and their Claymore form (much more rare).

    ---------------------------------------------------

    P.S.

    maybe I'm misunderstanding your post as well.

    Some Awakeneds' Awakened bodies are one with their real form (such as Isley, Rigardo, Dauf, hmm... any female examples?... I can't think right now), instead of being separate from their real form (Humanoid form).

    Other Awakeneds' (some females') Awakened forms are indeed separate from their real forms (Humanoid forms), as like merely a protective shell or exoskeleton for their real forms (Humanoid forms), as seen with:

    Riful, Ophelia, and Agatha. There's possibly Rosemary (her Humanoid form remained - stuck to her Awakened form's front side) and Beth as well (her Awakened body had a fake humanoid form which Priscilla ripped off hehe, like Riful and Agatha had, so thus Beth might be similar to Riful and Agatha in their having a real form protected within their Awakened forms), but it's not conclusive unfortunately.

    Hilda possibly seems like to might fit into this, that her Awakened body, might merely be a protective shell/exoskeleton for her separate real form (her Human/Claymore form)

    As said, their real form (their real humanoid form), is NOT to be confused with (some of theirs, Riful's and Agatha's) their FAKE-DECOY "humanoid form", an "outgrowth" of their protective shell/exoskeleton Awakened form.
    Last edited by HegemonKhan; April 25, 2011 at 11:50 AM.
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    "I hold the wolf by the ears, I am in a dangerous situation and dare not let go" -an old saying in Latin

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Goral's Avatar
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    Re: Obervations and questions after re-reading manga

    Quote Originally Posted by HegemonKhan View Post
    (...) Elena was an Awakened already (if I correctly understood the manga), yet she forced herself back into appearing as a Claymore for her friend Clare and to die as a Claymore ("To die with a human heart"). (...)
    She's a Claymore, that's definitive. Firstly, Clare would have sensed that she wasn't a Claymore just like Teresa sensed it. Heck, Ophelia could even tell that Clare half-awakened just by her smell so I'm pretty sure that any Claymore would be able to tell that someone awakened, if not by smell than by youki sensing. So unless Hilda had Priscilla's youki suppressing ability she would be found out immediately. Secondly, and that's what makes it definitive - Hilda's face was distorted and we've never seen AB's face distorted. They just awakened or looked exactly like humans. That's because they've had already access to all of their youki and their youki vessels (or whatever it appears on their Claymore faces after going 30% or more) function perfectly and are completely compatible with their bodies (I presume). Also, something which is even more definitive - their eyes and hair would gain original colour so it would be immediately known that someone awakened. In Rosemary's case she might have handed the black card in the dark where every colour would appear grey (and if she was blonde from the start and her eyes were grey then it would be just perfect) or she didn't really think about it. She was able to restrain herself and not kill any humans because she wanted to fight Teresa the most but she wasn't a Claymore. She only took human appearance as any AB can do, there was no forcing on that part. In Elena's case we could really see she was struggling. So no, she wasn't an awakened, she was struggling to have non-distorted face that's all. You misinterpreted it.

    Quote Quote:
    (...) 1. Awakened Hilda forced herself into her Claymore/Human form as she was dying and remained so when dead. (...)
    2. Miria's presence or whatever caused Hilda to actually de-Awaken as she was dying and dead. (...)
    In both of these cases I don't see how it could be possible. Once AB's head is cut off it dies and that's it. See the examples I've given in my previous posts.

    Quote Quote:
    Awakeneds can either/or-both take on their Human form (most common) or/and their Claymore form (much more rare).
    I don't know if it's possible, personally I doubt it. We haven't seen any AB (AFAIR) that had silver eyes and blonde hair in human form (unless it was grey and blonde since the moment they were born as humans).

    Quote Quote:
    (...) Other Awakeneds' (some females') Awakened forms are indeed separate from their real forms (Humanoid forms), as like merely a protective shell or exoskeleton for their real forms (Humanoid forms), as seen with:
    That seems the only plausible thing actually. Nice one HK.

    And what about my crazy idea about MiB having their senses enhanced thanks to their extensive medical knowledge? I know it's rather stupid but still I think it's an interesting idea which would explain how come Rubel could find cloaked Claymores or be in the right place at the right time or that this MiB from ES4 could know exactly what was going on. Of course it could be he didn't sense them but maybe he had his eyesight enhanced? From such a long distance to see what's going on without binoculars would be very difficult. Also, to be confident enough that youma wouldn't attack him he would need to know where the youma was exactly or have a bodygurad with him (unless he was stronger than youma).
    Last edited by Goral; May 11, 2011 at 04:04 AM.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member HegemonKhan's Avatar
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    Re: Obervations and questions after re-reading manga

    I thought the manga had Elena directly say that she had already Awakened, whch would then truly mean she was struggling to change and hold her body's appearance back to that of a Claymore, to meet with Clare, and yes if she was an Awakened, you'd think Clare would know it as she has indeed shown to be good at Yoki Sensing, being able to sense Riful's hidden Yoki below them, just as Galatea could, in the Witches Maw, along with some other examples as well, hehe.

    Hilda was an Awakened, yet she had the willpower to allow herself to be killed without trying to defend herself from death. Yet, mysteriously she indeed reverted back into her Claymore form upon dying/death... HK is perplexed/baffled... lol

    So, if Hilda can fight life's urge to stay alive, Elena could do it too (ignoring that logically you'd think -presumably rank 40'ish- Elena wouldn't be as mentally strong as rank 6 Hilda, but meh... whatever)

    aight, nevermind, the manga does *NOT* have Elena directly state it. My mistake!

    Though it was my notion/theory that it might be possible, I just mistakenly thought the manga had said it, when it hadn't.

    The basis I used for this: Awakened Rosemary WAS ABLE to be in her Claymore form! So, maybe Elena was able to be as well, an Awakened in Claymore form.

    possible hinting lines/pics at it, though indeed weak ones at that:

    ch 4 page 28 and 30

    -----------------------------

    I see three possibilities:

    1. Elena is an Awakened keeping her Claymore form, like Rosemary was actually able to do so.

    2. Elena is like Jean, fully Awakened in body (but able to keep her Claymore form...), but she's hanging onto her Human mind still like Jean was able to do so.

    3. Elena is in the transitional period like we seen with Priscilla, except she kept herself in Claymore form instead of "Orcish" form like we see with Priscilla, EXCEPT she's been holding off the Awakening for a MUCH longer time than Priscilla was... which logically doesn't make sense, as she's weak, whereas Priscilla is very-2nd most powerful, hehe.

    ----------------------------

    for me, any "enhanced 'x-men cyclops/Xavier-like sight" of Rubel's eyes would simply be Yoma related, making him a Yoma, and than the YSPs (Yoki Suppression Pills) taken chronically could explain how they're not sensed by their Claymores... or they simply have incredibly Yoki Supression Abilities or its due to the NYS "status effect" (lol, RPG term, hehe)

    The Organization "dabbles" in "Yoma Genetics and their Yoki Abilities", so I don't think there would be anything else going on outside of this; if it's an inhuman power/ability, than it's a Yoma or their Yoki's power/ability
    Last edited by HegemonKhan; May 01, 2011 at 10:48 AM.
    "The internet’s perfect for all manner of things, but productive discussion ain’t one of them. It provides scant room for debate and infinite opportunities for fruitless point-scoring: the heady combination of perceived anonymity, gestated responses, random heckling and a notional “live audience” quickly conspire to create a “perfect storm” of perpetual bickering." - Charlie Brooker

    "I hold the wolf by the ears, I am in a dangerous situation and dare not let go" -an old saying in Latin

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    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member wickedsmile's Avatar
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    Re: Obervations and questions after re-reading manga

    Honestly, it would be a great shame if Yagi later revealed that Rubel had "super human" abilities. It would undermine the mysticism and reputation that surround the man.

    I would much prefer the "master manipulator" that our colleague HK believes him to be. Also, he really doesn't need to have extra-ordinary abilities to have accomplished what he has done, to date. He managed to coerce Rafaela to work for him as a covert agent. He also managed to maneuver astute Miria to do his bidding and used Clare's sense of loyalty/caring to have her search for Lune/Renee.

    In my opinion, he basically uses his intended "accomplice's" desires/motivation to his benefit. This is a truly devious character, who would flourish immensely in the realm of politics.

    ws
    Last edited by wickedsmile; May 02, 2011 at 01:19 AM.
    I don't want to die. Even if that makeshift family was all nothing more than an illusion, doomed to someday fall apart. I so wish, so wish, it could have lasted the tiniest bit longer. - Norihiro Yagi

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