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Thread: Obervations and questions after re-reading manga

  1. #76
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Goral's Avatar
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    Re: Obervations and questions after re-reading manga

    Once again, while writing a post in 127th ch. thread I've thought of something I would like to discuss but since it doesn't fit that thread at all I'm writing here.

    It's a bit of a shame that Yagi has made all Claymores use the same weapon, although the name "Claymore" obligates. It would be awesome to see some Claymores running with a big war hammer for example. I could imagine Deneve running with something like that (plus it could easily do damage to such creatures like Duff or Riful). Clare was using daggers in a very skilled way so clearly a BFS (big freaking sword) is not the only weapon they learn to use. The lack of bows or crossbows has been mentioned many times so I won't go there but what about simple cannonballs that some more strong Claymores could easily pitch with high velocities? I'm also not sure whether anyone has mentioned shields. They also could be helpful, especially if they were made from the same alloy as claymores (and it wouldn't be as hard as making armour since it doesn't have complicated shapes). Any other ideas?

  2. #77
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member wickedsmile's Avatar
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    Re: Obervations and questions after re-reading manga

    Hi Goral:

    I think you forget Miria's little speech in Rabona, just after the Magnificent Seven defeated Agatha. Miria remarked that she has never damaged her sword and that she could not find any of the raw materials used in its construction. She surmised that the weapon had been exclusively created to kill the Awakened and like in kind. Smashing a Yoma that can alter his body, won't work as well as slicing/dicing. Also, the surest way to kill a Yoma or an Awakened Being is to decapitate it. That would be difficult to accomplish with a Morning Star or War Hammer. Something like a Halberd would be too large to wield in actual combat.

    I've read enough material that preaches the efficiency of the Katana but Claymore is centered on a European setting and hence would be out of place. Besides, the manga's title is Claymore so it wouldn't be appropriate for the warriors to use anything else. As for the use of shields, it would go against their strengths. All of them move with great rapidity. A Shield would be too unwieldy and would slow a warrior down. They would also be very difficult if not impossible to use, since a Claymore is traditionally held with two hands (go tell that to Irene - ).

    I wouldn't mind seeing a variation in their attire. Love Alicia and Beth's black attire or Helen's modified garment.
    I don't want to die. Even if that makeshift family was all nothing more than an illusion, doomed to someday fall apart. I so wish, so wish, it could have lasted the tiniest bit longer. - Norihiro Yagi

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  4. #78
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Shiek927's Avatar
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    Re: Obervations and questions after re-reading manga

    ....Silly in my opinion for all the warriors to use different weapons - that's a pretty common idea, especially to reflect each character's personality, but their are better ways of doing that. A Sword, in the end, combined with a warrior's performance, is versatile and practical enough that no other weapon should have a natural advantage.....any long-range projectile for example, can be slashed in mid-air if the warrior can be perceive it.

    I'm happy to have the variety left with the Awakened beings...we've seen all manner of organic weaponry from them - from the cool, to the creepy, to the just plain weird....and since the Awakened are all supposed to be unique and special in all sorts of ways to eachother, it figures, in contrast to the warriors who are in much the same superficially.

    Would different weaponry be used to reflect each character better? Yes, but it's a common idea that it unnecessary because their are deeper, better ways, to reflect and express each character....plus, again, the Awakened all have unique bodies and weaponry, so it's essentially the same idea anyway.
    You know, there are as many ways to live as there are people in this world...and each one deserves a closer look.

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  6. #79
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member wickedsmile's Avatar
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    Re: Obervations and questions after re-reading manga

    As we all know, according to the current chapter, Cassandra is heading toward Rabona, presumably to free Priscilla from the Blob. On another website, I was having a discussion about the content of the Blob and what forces could be controlling it. We know that the Destroyer savaged Clare's body and shortly imprisoned Priscilla within its imploding form. The Destroyer is what its name implies. I forget if it was Riful who remarked on this, that the Destroyer was mindless killing machine without thought or reasoning. It sucks the life of anything it encounters. Logically, it should have done the same to Clare and the Manga should have ended many chapters ago.

    However, Galatea confirmed that Clare's conscience is still bound within the Blob. How did Clare survive the Destroyer's attack? Could there be another entity controlling the Destroyer, which spared Clare's life. After it enveloped Clare, the Destroyer's attack certainly appeared to shifted focus to Priscilla. Did Clare merge with the Destroyer or are there still two distinct entities? Penny for your thoughts.....
    I don't want to die. Even if that makeshift family was all nothing more than an illusion, doomed to someday fall apart. I so wish, so wish, it could have lasted the tiniest bit longer. - Norihiro Yagi

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  8. #80
    Registered User 初心者/ Shoshinsha / Beginner Shelter's Avatar
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    Re: Obervations and questions after re-reading manga

    @wickedsmile:

    Firstly, for a while, Clare hasn't been the centre of the manga. That she's not present at the current story arc (although her being in the Blob casts a shadow over everyone's intentions) is remarkably similar to Raki's absence from the storyline during the seven-year timeskip. Even though I want to give Yagi the benefit of the doubt that he can still spin a good story, it seems most likely that when Clare reappears, she'll somehow be some superawakened! powerful! being - the same way Raki reappeared in the story with the super! ability to hold his own against Renee.

    Secondly, Clare's (re)absorption into the Blob does make sense. Back in chapter 93-94, not only did Clare re-emerge from the Destroyer, Clare also appeared to have all of Raphaela & Luciela's memories. If there's someone/ something that could somehow influence the yoki and mood of the Destroyer, it has to be Clare.

    But what I still don't understand is: why reduce everything into a Blob? Why didn't the Destroyer just consume Clare, kill Priscilla & then destroy the world? I hate to say it, but I suspect that the existence of the Blob is meant to give Raki a chance at trying to save Clare "from herself" or from an absorbed Priscilla.

    Anyone else have any other thoughts?

  9. #81
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Shiek927's Avatar
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    Re: Obervations and questions after re-reading manga

    I expect, or hope, that this will allow Claire and Priscilla to make amends Shelter and give us valuable insight into both of their characters, finally laying to rest many mysteries about them whilst streamlining them.....they are essentially trapped in a room and can't come out without both of them being released - with their minds linked, they (and we), will learn more about eachother then they ever did before.

    Everything that I prefer, everything that is happening....all seems to be pointing in the direction that their never will be, nor ever was going to be, a final fight between them - maybe their will be a mental showdown where Clare gets to kill some form of her (such as her malevolent AB persona), that appeases her....but everything I feel, is happening in order to set up these two for a very different sort of fight that leaves both of them alive, yet satisfied.
    You know, there are as many ways to live as there are people in this world...and each one deserves a closer look.

  10. #82
    Registered User 初心者/ Shoshinsha / Beginner Korinov's Avatar
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    Re: Obervations and questions after re-reading manga

    Quote Originally Posted by Goral View Post
    It would be awesome to see some Claymores running with a big war hammer for example.
    Why would they want a warhammer considering they'll be fighting unarmored and fast-moving opponents all of the time?
    You reap what you sow.

  11. #83
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member Nixl's Avatar
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    Re: Obervations and questions after re-reading manga

    Quote Originally Posted by Goral View Post
    Once again, while writing a post in 127th ch. thread I've thought of something I would like to discuss but since it doesn't fit that thread at all I'm writing here.

    It's a bit of a shame that Yagi has made all Claymores use the same weapon, although the name "Claymore" obligates. It would be awesome to see some Claymores running with a big war hammer for example. I could imagine Deneve running with something like that (plus it could easily do damage to such creatures like Duff or Riful). Clare was using daggers in a very skilled way so clearly a BFS (big freaking sword) is not the only weapon they learn to use. The lack of bows or crossbows has been mentioned many times so I won't go there but what about simple cannonballs that some more strong Claymores could easily pitch with high velocities? I'm also not sure whether anyone has mentioned shields. They also could be helpful, especially if they were made from the same alloy as claymores (and it wouldn't be as hard as making armour since it doesn't have complicated shapes). Any other ideas?
    I see where you are going with it Gooral. Blade of the Immortal has characters using weapons that are tailored to their personality, which is a great addition in the story. However, I feel like Yagi a great deal of forethought into the idea of Warriors needing a weapon that can gore a target to the point that it both keeps up with the regeneration rates of Yoma, ABs, and DoDs and also penetrate tough skin/armor. Even though the characters use the claymores like Katanas at times, it is a messy weapon that causes a lot of damage compared to a cleaner more precise weapon like a katana or dagger. It causes a big, messy, wounds, which is what Claymores want rather than small clean cuts.

    I always got the sense that if a "normal" Claymore attacked a Yoma, AB, or DoD with a Katana or something less brutal/massive that they would just laugh it off.

    That being said, having Claymores use unique/different weapons against one another would be refreshing. Sometimes I wonder if a Claymore had just used a smaller blade it would help them. Maybe if Yagi does a mainland arc we will see some variation. Even if the DoDs have no human form at all, I feel that Yagi wouldn't make them 100% Zerg like.
    Last edited by Nixl; June 10, 2012 at 10:22 PM.

  12. #84
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Goral's Avatar
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    Re: Obervations and questions after re-reading manga

    OK, let me just start with: I DISAGREE WITH YOU ALL ;P.

    @wickedsmile
    I didn't forget anything and I don't see how Miria's speech could be used as evidence that different weapons wouldn't be more useful. ANY indestructible lethal weapon would be very effective against Awakened Beings and practically any weapon (including brass knuckles) would be effective against youma. It's been stated in the manga (and shown) that smashed limbs were very hard to regenerate, way harder than re-attaching limbs (so if it would be the case for Claymores it would most certainly be the case for their weaker versions, i.e. youma and most likely for ABs as well). I doubt that a youma would be able to regenerate their head if it would become a bloody pulp or would explode like a bloody sausage.
    Also, some ABs are very resilient against stab wounds or slashes (Duff or Riful for example) but we do not kow how much damage a warhammer would do against them. In the case of Duff it's certain that war-hammer could penetrate his armour much more easily than a claymore and you wouldn't even need any special technique for it. The only technique we've seen being capable of penetrating his armour was Drill Sword. So while war hammer would most probably be significantly slower weapon than a claymore it would still be much faster than Jean's DS (taking into account how long she needed to prepare it) and even a rather weak swing would dent/crack his armour (especially a war hammer with a spike on one end). The same goes for a morning star. Heck, the strongest Claymores could probably make a small earthquake with a big hammer or shoot arrows with the speed of a machine gun.

    As for halberd being too large to wield, you're completely wrong. It was a very effective weapon, especially against enemies on horses (or in case of Claymores against tall enemies, i.e. ABs, I'm spelling it out just in case) or opponents with spears or pikes (which somehow weren't to big to be wielded by ninja MiB or Rabona soldiers - which reminds me - Rabona soldiers are using halberds). And since strength wouldn't be an issue it could be a much safer weapon than claymores which do not have such range.

    As for katanas, I haven't even mentioned them so you mentioning them is a bit out of the blue (especially since you've mentioned it only to dismiss it, it's a bit like you would say "hey, a whip wouldn't work so your idea sucks"). Especially since Europeans and people from Middle East had their own very efficient, fast and reliable swords like sabres (szable) or scimitars (especially the ones made from Damascus steel). Katanas were better than average swords not because of their shape but because of their properties (durability, etc.). Having indestructible alloy would make any weapon at least as reliable (and swords made from Damascus steel were as good as katanas, which was possible thanks to proper furnace and the right temperature and pressure) so your logic here is utterly flawed.

    As for shields, they come in many different shapes and sizes so every warrior would find the one they could use best (so there goes your argument that it would be too unwieldy or would slow a warrior down). Imagine how much more effective would a a small buckler than this (the end of chapter 80, Raki shows how to block with a retractable armour part) or this. In case some Claymores would prefer to use super big shields instead of small bucklers, while it could slow them down it would also give them additional protection. See how much of a help was that additional mobility (chapter 57, p. 26). If Claymores had shields in Pieta Rigaldo would have a much more difficult task.
    As for your argument that claymores are held with two hands - it's silly since Claymores do not have human strength and can easily wield it using one arm (and in the manga more often than not Claymores use claymores with one hand, e.g. Jean, Clare, Irene, Deneve, Helen, Miria, Undine, Flora and practically every Claymore was shown to be using it with one hand). Not to mention that having them on thei back would give them protection while at the same time not hinder them at all.



    The only good argument you've made is that manga is called Claymore but to be honest at this point it wouldn't matter that much after destruction of the organization (even earlier even since Fab 7 used their own uniforms and claymores were the only things left from the days they've worked for The Organization). It would be awesome if they would somehow find out how to make such alloy and could custom made their weapons so they could use their talents to the fullest. E.g. I would think that learning how to throw a weapon designed for throwing would be much easier than throwing a BFS (big freaking sword, i.e. claymore), the same goes for using two BFS instead of using a sword + a shield or two shorter swords (despite Claymores being super strong they're not super tall so in reality they would hinder themselves if they were using two swords as long or longer as they were tall).



    BTW, I've just noticed that purple blood in anime is completely non-canon since youma are humans so I doubt the colour of their fluids change once infected with a parasite. Unless it was mentioned that youma blood is purple and I forgot about it.

  13. #85
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member Nixl's Avatar
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    Re: Obervations and questions after re-reading manga

    Do not get me wrong, I like the idea of Claymores starting to use different weapons. However, for the "monster hunter" part of this manga, I think the area of effect both in terms of how far a Claymore can reach and how large the impact wound is, is why the Claymore is preferable (for now). A short sword made of the same metal would certainly cut an enemy, but it would not have the same wound size or the same reach as a claymore. Perhaps Miria could make a short sword work, but for the average Claymore that does not have a speed boost, being able to keep that distance must be vital. We wouldn't want Clarice getting hurt

    The reason I brought up Katanas is because the Claymores really do seem to use them as such. In my mind, a Claymore is a really messy painful weapon to use on someone, while a Katana is precise weapons that make cleaner cuts relatively. In this manga, the actual weight and the wounds created are kind of offset by the super human strength of the characters. I do not think we really get the sense of weight for the claymores due to the fact the characters use them as if they were light weapons. Furthermore, often the cuts in Claymore look very very precise and clean even though they use big fucking swords that should send brain matter all over the place.
    Last edited by Nixl; June 11, 2012 at 09:10 AM.

  14. #86
    Registered User 初心者/ Shoshinsha / Beginner Korinov's Avatar
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    Re: Obervations and questions after re-reading manga

    Quote Originally Posted by Goral View Post
    Also, some ABs are very resilient against stab wounds or slashes (Duff or Riful for example) but we do not kow how much damage a warhammer would do against them. In the case of Duff it's certain that war-hammer could penetrate his armour much more easily than a claymore and you wouldn't even need any special technique for it. The only technique we've seen being capable of penetrating his armour was Drill Sword. So while war hammer would most probably be significantly slower weapon than a claymore it would still be much faster than Jean's DS (taking into account how long she needed to prepare it) and even a rather weak swing would dent/crack his armour (especially a war hammer with a spike on one end). The same goes for a morning star. Heck, the strongest Claymores could probably make a small earthquake with a big hammer or shoot arrows with the speed of a machine gun.
    Yes, but nobody is going to carry a warhammer all over the place just in case Duff appears out of the blue.

    I agree though with the sword + shield combo, in fact it could suit defensive type warriors better than their current BFS.

    Regarding the "machine gun arrows"... first you would need a bow able to withstand that.
    You reap what you sow.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Brother Coa's Avatar
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    Re: Obervations and questions after re-reading manga

    Quote Originally Posted by Goral View Post
    It's a bit of a shame that Yagi has made all Claymores use the same weapon, although the name "Claymore" obligates. It would be awesome to see some Claymores running with a big war hammer for example.?
    You mean like this:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLP5q6XyUik

    I think that's a great idea, to see Claymores wield all kind of close combat weapons - not just swords.
    "The universe has many horrors yet to throw at us. This is not the end of our struggle. This is just the beginning of our crusade to save Humanity. Be faithful! Be strong! Be vigilant!"

    -Emperor of Mankind.


  16. #88
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Shiek927's Avatar
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    Re: Obervations and questions after re-reading manga

    I stand by not seeing the point in having different weaponry...

    For the sake of expressing and reflecting characters better, again, we already have that idea essentially with Awakened Beings and how unique they are all to eachother - more importantly, in a story like Claymore, such a thing is superficial.....it's never been about power-levels, weaponry, or flash and pizazz....it's about the character, their personality, and so on. Their are such better ways to reflect and express a character then giving them different weapons to reflect eachother....that's such a tired conventional idea, and again, we already essentially have that idea with Awakened Beings who's entire form is always unique.

    Plus, again, from a practical standpoint, I don't see what can beat a Sword....so long as the warrior has the right skill and performance behind them, they should be able to beat anybody - I can't think of a weapon that is more practical or versatile then a sword....plus, they all have their own abilities and techniques....superficially, warriors look much the same, with the uniform or weaponry...it's past the surface that counts and what really matters. If Yagi wanted to make his characters feel unique by giving them all unique weapons, uniforms, etc....then he would be just like the ten thousand other authors who do the exact same thing.
    You know, there are as many ways to live as there are people in this world...and each one deserves a closer look.

  17. #89
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member wickedsmile's Avatar
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    Re: Obervations and questions after re-reading manga

    Quote Originally Posted by Goral View Post
    OK, let me just start with: I DISAGREE WITH YOU ALL ;P.

    @wickedsmile.
    @ Goral:

    All of these mid-evil weapons have been used to great effect, until they were made obsolete by the evolution of another weapon. I don't discount there effectiveness at all. I merely maintain that the Claymore is the better weapon, given the nature of the enemy (Yoma or Awakened Being). Hence, this would preclude the warriors from using anything else. Yes, it's a two handed sword being wielded one handed by the warriors (hence my comment about Irene). Meaning, that not all the physical properties of the literal world will apply and we can bend the laws of physics to a certain degree.

    A Yoma and Awakened Beings can alter their form, just like Helen can to a certain degree. This dictates a high degree of elasticity, similar to a rubber band or a rubber ball. Try smashing that with a mace, a warm hammer or morning star. It's not going to have great effect. Against a hardened object (such as bone density), it will cause fearsome damage. From the text, it doesn't appear that Yomas have such physical properties. To me they appear to be ugly versions of Plastic Man or Mister Fantastic. Look at what Priscilla did to kill Noel and how the Yoma attacked/injured Clare, with stretched limbs.

    Also, as of late, the Manga has received criticism for having a shallow plot without much meaning or consequence. I think if Yagi introduced all these weapons just for the sake of having the visuals in the actions scene, he would further erode the Manga's credibility. As Shiek927 stated, there are other means of distinguishing characters that would better enrich the Manga. Their individual lives, travails, hardships, what Clare or Teresa experience, those are much more poignant and meaningful demarcation criteria than weaponry. I think that's why I like Claymore and the other manga that I read (Gunslinger Girl - Yu Aida). Yagi focused on the individual nature of each character and brought that out to the forefront.

    Great, this is probably my longest reply ever. I gotta watch it, less I be called verbose.
    I don't want to die. Even if that makeshift family was all nothing more than an illusion, doomed to someday fall apart. I so wish, so wish, it could have lasted the tiniest bit longer. - Norihiro Yagi

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Goral's Avatar
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    Re: Obervations and questions after re-reading manga

    Does anyone find it strange that Isley was practicing his swordsmanship (in the chapter where Raki saw him and asked him to each him)? After all, against serious opponents he wouldn't use it. Does he even have to practice? Can they toughen up and build muscles or improve in any other way? Or was it just his sentiment showing and a way to remember the good old times?
    Last edited by Goral; July 13, 2012 at 02:59 AM.

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