Naruto, Sasuke & Pain - Why Sasuke can (out)match Naruto and be inferior to Pain

[Blinx-182]

When Naruto faced Itachi on the way to Gaara, Naruto's Kyuubi eye appeared for a panel while trying to break the genjutsu, iirc.

Well, that's like mentioning Sasuke's cursed seal in Itachi's illusion. It didn't appear in the 'real world' so to speak such as when he used Rasengan, so I don't count it.

[Delbi]

Well then, how exactly does something that's supposed to be "instant" end up being deflected by the Hachibi's tail? If he was looking at the face, shouldn't it have appeared right there instead. Last I checked, Amaterasu does not move [Let alone burn] at the speed of light. Seems as if it was traveling. This whole "instant" stuff is really a misconception.

I misspoke, Ameratsu moves as fast as the eye can see. Naruto can't move that fast, and thus, he's fucked.

Avoiding a jutsu with substitution is not "impossible".

Avoiding Ameratsu with a normal one most certainly is.

[
Are you trying to say he was stretching the flames? That's a feat unheard of from Itachi.

He moved the flames, very similar to how one would move any other type of elemental jutsu.

As far as I know, the fox had no involvement in Naruto's attempt with breaking Itachi's genjutsu.

Naruto summoned some of it's chakra to break it and failed.

[jdw]

It terms of how a kawaarimi works, and how Ameratsu works, no a regular one would not work, and here's why.

A Kawarimi works by replacing one self with something prior to getting hit with an attack.

Ameratsu appears as fast as the eye can see. The only person to ever dodge the attack had to use a super shushin to do so, and even then barely got out of the way. The Raikage literally moved faster than the Sharigan could see.

Sasuke kawarimi and Bee's as well, worked differently than a normal one, because they could be hit by a jutsu, and yet still escape.

So no, Sasuke didn't show us a Kawarimi can avoid Ameratsu, he showed us that Oral Rebirth can. Yes, it's a Kawarimi, an S-Rank one that Naruto does not know. If you want to be cute and say a Sasuke showed us what you said, be my guest.

It isn't impossible for someone to go into combat prepared to use Kawarimi. And Amaterasu can be summoned directly onto a target or moved to a target. Itachi's was moving it toward Sasuke, Sasuke's moved it toward Gaara, and Sasuke's moved it toward Bee (the "spikes"). So, at a bare minimum, Sasuke showed it is possible to avoid an Amaterasu with Kawarimi when it is not directly summoned onto a person. I can go that far.

[Delbi]

Well, that's like mentioning Sasuke's cursed seal in Itachi's illusion. It didn't appear in the 'real world' so to speak such as when he used Rasengan, so I don't count it.

In either event, Naruto using the Kyuubi chakra shouldn't make a difference.

For staters, Naruto has 4 times as much chakra as Kakashi, who has more than Itachi. That clone of Itachi had 30 percent of it's normal chakra. Naruto should have easily been able to overpower him yet could not.

---

It isn't impossible for someone to go into combat prepared to use Kawarimi. And Amaterasu can be summoned directly onto a target or moved to a target. Itachi's was moving it toward Sasuke, Sasuke's moved it toward Gaara, and Sasuke's moved it toward Bee (the "spikes"). So, at a bare minimum, Sasuke showed it is possible to avoid an Amaterasu with Kawarimi when it is not directly summoned onto a person. I can go that far.

That is correct, but if it's used in the way that Sasuke normally uses it, like when he makes it appear where ever his eyes are looking, a normally kawarimi is usless. Also, even when he's moving it, one needs something to replace themself with, and that's considering if they are even fast enough to do that.

[Destined_One]

Kagebushin should suffice for Ametarasu. Naruto has shown enough innovation in his fight's to fool Sasuke. Smoke bombs, henge etc. Naruto is the master of misdirection and trickery. Even the most intelligent of ninja have fallen for kagebushin tricks.

Also Naruto's speed is still an unknown quantity. Though there is enough to suggest that base Naruto has impressive speed in his own right. With his reaction time versus the Kumo ninja's and his latest rescue of Sakura. Also you can't underestimate how fast Naruto was in Sage Mode. The single panel of him covering all that ground versus Asura, is one of the most impressive displays of speed in the manga. Id say only behind Minato saving Kakashi & the Raikage dodging Ametarasu. So whether he can dodge Susanoo arrows is yet to be seen. Though considering it will never kill him, its definitely a possibility.

[Blinx-182]

I misspoke, Ameratsu moves as fast as the eye can see. Naruto can't move that fast, and thus, he's fucked.

That's not an answer to my question. Again, you say Amaterasu is "instant", and I point you towards Hachibi deflecting it with the tentacle as if it was a projectile it saw coming. Notice how far away the flames are from it's face.


For something that's supposed to have deadly accuracy, it missed.

Avoiding Ameratsu with a normal one most certainly is.

Not necessarily.

He moved the flames, very similar to how one would move any other type of elemental jutsu.

All I see are the existing flames that remained after he burned Sasuke's own flames, traveling towards Sasuke as projectiles.

Shaping Amaterasu was a feat unheard of from Itachi:
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/463/15/

Hence, I'll respectfully disagree and say the flames were travelling rather than stetching, let alone appearing instantly.

Naruto summoned some of it's chakra to break it and failed.

We can't be sure of that if the change in the real world wasn't shown.

In either event, Naruto using the Kyuubi chakra shouldn't make a difference.

Again, that's merely an illusion. Naruto's eyes should change to show the presence of the chakra in the real world if it was truly being used:
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/259/13/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/259/18/

Naruto was just standing there. On that very panel, the pupil only appears once. Same with Sasuke:
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/388/08/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/388/12/

The Cursed seal is never actually activated. As for Naruto "failing" being taken as proof he can also fail against Sasuke, that's circumstantial. Naruto's mind for instance, was weaker and Itachi somehow tortured him with his shortcomings and mental state:
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/259/16/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/259/17/

This time around, he's stronger and more confident:
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/487/02/

He no longer chases after Sasuke, he's no longer guilty of Gaara, no longer guilty about protecting comrades etc.

In that case, we can agree to disagree that Naruto is capable of breaking genjutsu. Frankly speaking, the fight between Naruto and Sasuke would be ultimately insubstantial if Naruto is defeated by a mere illusion. Naruto thinking he'd die when he fights Sasuke doesn't seem to involve losing to a genjutsu, but we can agree to disagree.

[Ryr]

Kagebushin should suffice for Ametarasu. Naruto has shown enough innovation in his fight's to fool Sasuke.

Wow, tricked Sasuke? Where do you get that other than from your own imagination?

Smoke bombs, henge etc. Naruto is the master of misdirection and trickery. Even the most intelligent of ninja have fallen for kagebushin tricks.

In reality Naruto's tricks are all confined to the manipulation of his shadow clones.

Sasuke's tricks go far beyond that - he had tricked his opponents through various means, and all which are usually unique and not replicas of each other. Reversed summoning to escape a nuclear explosion; genjutsu to confer false security; camouflaging 'set-up of another jutsu' as straight-forward attacks; capitalizing on the opponent's element; inventing new jutsus spontaneously in combat, etc etc etc. 'Master of tricks' is Sasuke, not Naruto.

[Destined_One]

Wow, tricked Sasuke? Where do you get that other than from your own imagination?



In reality Naruto's tricks are all confined to the manipulation of his shadow clones.

Sasuke's tricks go far beyond that - he had tricked his opponents through various means, and all which are usually unique and not replicas of each other. Reversed summoning to escape a nuclear explosion; genjutsu to confer false security; camouflaging 'set-up of another jutsu' as straight-forward attacks; capitalizing on the opponent's element; inventing new jutsus spontaneously in combat, etc etc etc.

I meant Innovation in his fights, not just against Sasuke. I don't believe Sasuke's tricks as you put it go beyond Naruto's. What you have mentioned is true, but it is expected from a genius. He has the tools and he reacts accordingly. The same can be said of Kakashi. Naruto's ad live nature is more unpredictable, and inventive. He uses 2 jutsu's basically, and is just as dominant a fighter as Sasuke is. Even Sasuke accepted him as a high class ninja. Having 1000 clones disguised as rocks, or FRS, Shadow Shuriken etc. using clones to maneuver in the air (especially his combo versus Gaara), or create openings to attack. Sasuke is great, but a lot of what he does is directly related to his natural gifts, not his tricks as you put it. Him capitalizing on the elemental advantage would not have occurred in his fight with deidara without his sharigan, and inventing jutsu is an example of his genius not tricks or innovation in battle. However the genjutsu is a good example. Though being the trickster has always been Naruto's thing.

[Lord Abortion]

Sasuke has been showing a lack of battle strategy in his last two fights. Against the Raikage, immediately after his electrified sword bounced off of the back of Raikage he tries to rush in with a chidori beleiving that the results would be different. Against Danzou, he crushed Danzous body twice and saw that Danzou kept respawing yet he insisted on performing AM to try to do damage, and TS to try to be able to stab Danzou in the back.

While he has shown some good uses of his techniques in using Am on susanoo and his last second genjutsu on Danzou to convince him that he had time left, his tactics have involved doing pretty wasteful things after seeing one technique is totally ineffective.

As far as genjutsu goes vs Naruto, the closest thing that can be compared is the fact that Naruto escaped the chakra rods of Nagato that are both used to distrupt the chakra in a body and control the body of an impaled person. Similar to how genjutsu is used by manipulating the chakra inside of a ninja.

[Delbi]

Sasuke has been showing a lack of battle strategy in his last two fights. Against the Raikage, immediately after his electrified sword bounced off of the back of Raikage he tries to rush in with a chidori beleiving that the results would be different. Against Danzou, he crushed Danzous body twice and saw that Danzou kept respawing yet he insisted on performing AM to try to do damage, and TS to try to be able to stab Danzou in the back.

While he has shown some good uses of his techniques in using Am on susanoo and his last second genjutsu on Danzou to convince him that he had time left, his tactics have involved doing pretty wasteful things after seeing one technique is totally ineffective.

You really need to stop hating.

First, what exactly was Sasuke supposed to do vs. the Raikage? He managed to hurt him with a perfectly timed Chidori strike and used all of his jutsu possible to get the least hurt while fighting. He even managed to counter the Raikage's superior speed and made the Raikage lose his hand and later nearly kill himself.

And when he fought Danzou, he saw through his every move, and killed him like 10 times. Destroyed his summon, and even figured out how his jutsu work and figured out he needed to keep blitzkreiging him to win the fight.

He did what he had to. You call it wasteful, yet anyone else in that position would have failed miserably against Danzou. Sasuke had a plan, and followed it. If you say what he did vs. Danzou wasn't genius, you have to be kidding yourself. That whole fight was to reassure everyone that despite his hatred, Sasuke is as smart as ever.

As far as genjutsu goes vs Naruto, the closest thing that can be compared is the fact that Naruto escaped the chakra rods of Nagato that are both used to distrupt the chakra in a body and control the body of an impaled person. Similar to how genjutsu is used by manipulating the chakra inside of a ninja

It is similar, but it's not the same, and in there lays the problem. Naruto used the same technique to break Nagato's hold on him that he did with Itachi's genjutsu. That doesn't mean he can suddendly break out of genjutsu now.

The only thing in common that genjutsu and what Nagato do is they enter their own chakra into someone's body. Everything else involving them, including how the chakra is dellivered, what it does to the body, and what happens to the person are all entirely different.

[BBB Banana]

Amaterasu doesn't apear wherever the user is looking it apears wherever the user focuses. The proof is that if it apeared where you look at everything in front of you would burn.

And Naruto could run from it like sasuke did against itachi but it wouldn't last long since the sharingan can read movements making easier to focus on moving targets. But it would be the time neede for a smoke screen.


I like Naruto but he can't beat Sasuke at least now. His best option would be to sumon Ma and Pa who are full of batle experience and have few jutsus capable of fooling the sharingan. But still susanoo is tough to handle.

[Lord Abortion]

You really need to stop hating.

First, what exactly was Sasuke supposed to do vs. the Raikage? He managed to hurt him with a perfectly timed Chidori strike and used all of his jutsu possible to get the least hurt while fighting. He even managed to counter the Raikage's superior speed and made the Raikage lose his hand and later nearly kill himself.

And when he fought Danzou, he saw through his every move, and killed him like 10 times. Destroyed his summon, and even figured out how his jutsu work and figured out he needed to keep blitzkreiging him to win the fight.

He did what he had to. You call it wasteful, yet anyone else in that position would have failed miserably against Danzou. Sasuke had a plan, and followed it. If you say what he did vs. Danzou wasn't genius, you have to be kidding yourself. That whole fight was to reassure everyone that despite his hatred, Sasuke is as smart as ever.

How exactly am I hating on Sasuke?

He could've taken the fact that the Raikage was rushing in on him to AM snipe him or catch him in a genjutsu, then set him on fire. While Sasuke provided the amaterasu, Raikage caused the loss of his own hand, he didn't need to attack Sasuke, he chose to.

What he did against Danzou wasn't genius. Compare what he did in his fight with Deidara, where it took him two hunches to figure out that he could disable his bombs with electricity. I'm not saying he didn't do anything smart in that match up, shooting the fireball in the summons mouth and the last second genjutsu on Danzou were, but what clearly wasn't was how he didn't try to deduce what Danzous ability was.

After crushing Danzou in his hand the first time, then smashing him with his fist the second time and after AM didn't kill him he was goaded into coming in close to Danzou so that Danzou could place a seal on him, then after cleaving Danzou in half he tried to use tsukiyomi in order to cleave him again.

Trying to kill him over and over without trying to figure out how his ability works doesn't scream out genius tactician to me.

[Delbi]

How exactly am I hating on Sasuke?

He could've taken the fact that the Raikage was rushing in on him to AM snipe him or catch him in a genjutsu, then set him on fire. While Sasuke provided the amaterasu, Raikage caused the loss of his own hand, he didn't need to attack Sasuke, he chose to.

What he did against Danzou wasn't genius. Compare what he did in his fight with Deidara, where it took him two hunches to figure out that he could disable his bombs with electricity. I'm not saying he didn't do anything smart in that match up, shooting the fireball in the summons mouth and the last second genjutsu on Danzou were, but what clearly wasn't was how he didn't try to deduce what Danzous ability was.

After crushing Danzou in his hand the first time, then smashing him with his fist the second time and after AM didn't kill him he was goaded into coming in close to Danzou so that Danzou could place a seal on him, then after cleaving Danzou in half he tried to use tsukiyomi in order to cleave him again.

Trying to kill him over and over without trying to figure out how his ability works doesn't scream out genius tactician to me.

Madara even pointed out that the strategy Sasuke used to figure out and defeat Danzou's powers was the correct one.

Sasuke tried ninjutsu, taijutsu, and genjutsu. All of which failed until he realized there was a time limit to Izanagi and that if he kept attacking it would be shortened. His ability to trick Danzou with a simple illusion goes to show how much of a genius he is, he noticed him looking at his arm always and played on that small detail using a jutsu that he already failed with.

Sasuke utterly destroyed Danzou in every way possible. He outsmarted a man 4 times his age with countless more experience and a jutsu that made him near immortal for ten minutes. How he is not a genius for this feat I'm not so sure. Danzou himself even praised Sasuke after underestimating him.

[ninjabot]

I am not sure if I follow you. Sasuke did use a substitution (replacement) jutsu to avoid amaterasu. Sasuke says that he can't use "that" replacement technique until Itachi tries amaterasu. It was part of his plan, it seems, to set up Kirin, but Sasuke established that Amaterasu can be avoided with a kawarimi.

It wasn't just any kawarimi. It was THE kawarimi. One that didn't require handseals (or maybe it did...I doubt it), nor prep time. It DID however require a large amount of chakra. Blinx is referring to your average everyday run-of-the-mill Kawarimi. It's not as hard to trace as Orochimaru's Kawarimi.

EDIT: Nevermind, this thread is moving pretty fast. This statement has been discussed already...lol.

[hakuthehedgehog]

We shouldn't say much about Sasuke's tatical genius against Danzo IMO.
While he was smart in using his genjutsu to fool Danzo, Danzo was so stupid in his fight and when using Izanagi that we shouldn't say Sasuke was a tactical genius (although he did show amamzing intelligence skills against Deidara, I liked that Sasuke, too bad he is gone and degenerated into a guy that spams techniques.)
I don't think Sasuke whould instant own Naruto, even with amaterasu, reason of which is that it was shown that amaterasu could be partially dodged even by those without godly reflexes, as seen in Itachi vs Sasuke, and with the usage of KB he could escape it.
Some of you were saying that Naruto couldn't escape Sasuke's genjutsu: that is false, as he can use KB and make them dispel the genjutsu (Sasuke's isn't as deadly as Itachi's, so it whouldn't be too much of a problem)