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Translations: Gintama 507 (2)
They're high-tier. Don't mess with them or you'll be sorry.
They're mid-tier. They're outstanding but so are every other captain.
They're low-tier. New generation surpasses the old.
What we know about them:
- Yamamoto says "Their skills were outstanding and they were much stronger than their peers and predecessors."
- They are relatively old and had lots of time to polish their skills.
- They held their own against Yamamoto (the strongest shinigami) in a brief fight. (They seemed to be on the losing end though.)
- Shunsui was the one who defeated #1 espada Stark with his shikai. (With questionable tactics according to some people)
- WW took Ukitake out of the battle. (Ukitake has a soft spot for kids though.)
What do you think of these guys? We have 10 captains in Gotei 13, 3 traitors, Urahara, Yoruichi, Tessai, Isshin, 4 vizard captains, 21 captains in total. If 7 of these 21 are high-tier, 7 of these are mid-tier and 7 of these are low-tier, in which tier would Shunsui (& Ukitake if in the same tier) be?
I think their overrated. They may be a level below Aizen and Yama, but it doesn't mean there aren't many of other captains who can compete with them or possibly beat them. IMO Urahara, Yoruichi, Shinji, Tessai, Tousen, Soi Fong, Isshin and Gin can possibly beat them. They aren't so dominant that they can easily beat everyone under Aizen and Yama.
Last edited by En Yang Ji; April 15, 2010 at 12:18 PM.
They are both characters I am indifferent too, no matter how strong. Neither really interest me. I'm not sure about overrated though. Without seeing bankai I don't believe any captain can be properly judged. They certainly should be among the most powerful, only Unohana and Yama are older, they are the first two Shinigami Academy students to be promoted to captain. That has to count for something. While I dislike Shunsui's shikai (seems hax to me) it is pretty fearsome, he killed Starrk with relatively little ease. Ukitake has not had a truly long, significant fight. His battle prowess is almost impossible to evaluate.
I think they are overated to a great deal. I think they indeed are among the strongest captains but I still think they would have some trouble getting a victory over any other captain level shinigami -even if just using shikai-.
I think Shunsui may be overrated. Uki hasn't done much, but people seem to think that Shunsui taking out starrk with his shikai means that he is automatically better than both love and rose put together.
I think the pair of them are on the same level as Shinji, urahara, Gin and Yoruichi and possibly arrancar tousen. Any one on one match between them would be a tough call.
However, together, I think they can beat any and every other pair (that doesn't include Aizen or Yama) because they specifically work as a team, which no other shinigami does. I believe that is where their true strength lies.
After watching Aizen vs Isshin, I am inclined to believe that had Shinji and Shunsui not started the fight under Aizen's illusion they could have beaten him. Aizen's illusion seems to be hard to pull off in the middle of a fight (otherwise he would have done it to Isshin). Therefore it is not fair to classify their loss against Aizen (quite a walkover in my opinion) as a mark against their skill.
With this said I do not believe Shunsui to be overrated as the only time we see him lose, it was under questionable circumstances.
Taking on the number 1 arancar (one of the only really capable ones in my opinion other than Barragan and Ulquitoria) and winning - even if it was down to his shikai - still deserves alot of respect. So does having Yammamoto give him and Ukitake such respect.
As for a hax shikai - well it is part of his abilities and is one of the reasons why he is strong - you wouldn't take Aizen's, Byakuya's or Yammamoto's away from them......
Ukitake is difficult to determine as nothing was really shown.
If you start to rate characters by splitting them from their traits and abilities, you will end up everyone lose to Kenpachi. This might be the dream of many Kenny fanboys here, but it's just unlikely.
Therefore, if Ukitake is able to take out Stark with his shikai, then he ... uhm ... is able to take out Stark with his shikai?
I think people have problem to judge Ukitake's abilities since it looked like a rather small effort to take out Stark. I was about to question latter's abilities. Thinking twice, there must've been a good reason he's been primera and not number two.
Please note that we have seen every low and mid tier captains' bankai by now. Everyone of the high tier has been relucant to use their power and abilities at all. Having a character in the series for a longer period and knowing nearly nothing about his power at the same time is a good indicator that Kubo holds him back to raise the power level later. This includes Yamamoto (maybe), Unohana, Ukitake, Kyouraku, Aizen, Kurosaki (Isshin) and Urahara. I thought about adding Hirako too although being beaten by Aizen's Kyouka Suigetsu, but he seems not to be special enough up to now.
Yes ... no Gin, no Ichigo, no Byakuya, no Yoruichi, no Kenpachi, no Vaizards, and whatever else fanboys may dream of. Everyone I included in the list above is either extremely old or a genius among geniuses. Gin is a single genius. Another reason for not adding Hirako, maybe.
Additionally, let's remember that it took a hell lot of a time to even catch a view on the high tier's shikai abilities, if at all, since two of them haven't even shown their shikai yet.
Last edited by Raimaru; April 16, 2010 at 09:02 AM. Reason: I just want to emphasize the fact that Shunsui's last name is Kyouraku, not vice versa.
i dont find them over rated just think kubo been lazy not showing what they can do...shunsui beating starrk shikai very impressive (well compared to how the other captains fought) better than rose or love dunno bout that. i find they would be high tier as they been around and practised together since the academy. unohana that is a over rated character every assumes she is a good fighter because of a few hints in the manga she concentrates on being a healer for a reason im not saying completey useless in a fight just not as good as alot of the gotei 13
Overrated on this forum? Yeah, kinda, I personally think that others are more overrated than them though. It's shunsui mostly, since we haven't seen much of Ukitake, but people revere Shunsui as almost a god for defeating Stark with his shikai (his shikai ability somehow negated Stark's wolves, which was likely his strongest attack).
However, if you put the 21 captain tier characters, I'd most definitely put Shunsui in the high tier, and Ukitake will probably be there too from the comments we've heard about them, but he is yet to show much.
Jushirou isn't so much, but Shunsui is definitely overrated. People need to take more in depth looks at the manga, and the fights that occur in it. It's not as simple as A > B so A must be stronger than C, D, F, G, etc.
Unfortunately that is the flawed logic that some are projecting on this forum.
Yes, not everything is in terms of raw power in Bleach. However, Shunsui's willingness to fight dirty and tactically is an asset he has that basically every other Captain doesn't have for some reason. People can try and argue that because he snuck up on Starrk and was relentless in the cheap shots that he's not "stronger" than Love or Rose, but I'd consider all the sneakiness as strength when it comes to battle. It's not "ZOMG RAW REIATSU HE'S > THAN THEM", no. I think he's stronger because he is a more ruthless combatant, and ultimately he WAS able to achieve alone what Love and Rose couldn't together.
Kinda like Aizen... right now, either Isshin is just leaps and bounds above every Shinigami in this story, or Aizen is CONSIDERABLY weaker without all the deceit, planning, strategy, and opportunistic fighting, especially the kind allowed by Kyouka Suigetsu. As far as we know, he's fighting unreleased v. unreleased against Isshin, and last chapter made it clear that Isshin is at least a match for him.
So basically, Shunsui's overrated if people are thinking that he can bat an eyelash towards a lesser Captain and crush them, or assuming that something as simple as a vast reiatsu source will allow him to win against any lower tier captain. However, I don't think he's overrated if people are judging him as able to beat the other captains because he's a more capable and experienced fighter than them, because... well, he is. And that's nothing to take lightly.
I won't speak on Ukitake. Dude's gotten mauled with the plot stick...
In other words, I think that if you gave Kenpachi, Toshirou, Soi Fon, etc. a hollow mask, the tables would be turned and they would annihilate Shunsui or Jushirou. This is why it is reasonable to assume that the vizards who were former captains are more powerful, because as as shinigami there's no reason to believe that they'd be weaker the characters I mentioned above.
As for Ukitake Jushirou, now that I think about it, he doesn't seem to be too durable. We've seen other characters get hands put through their bodies and still continue to fight.
Well, I believe Shunsui (shikai) is on par with Stark (resurreccion) and they would have equal chances in a rematch. On the other hand, IMO many captains (including vizards except Shinji) stand no chance against espada #1 without going bankai, this is why I believe there's a considerable difference between Shunsui and the captains who have no winning chance against Stark without bankai.
Nobody says Shunsui can reiatsu-choke the other captains (like Hitsugaya for example) but IMO his experience & strength prevail over most of captain-level opponents.
And "A>B>C" doesn't always prove that "A>C" but most of the time it makes more sense than saying "C>A" to promote our favorite characters without basis. Otherwise, for example, who is stopping Yachiru fans from saying "Yachiru is stronger than Yamamoto, disprove me if you can". Favoritism should never overrule common sense, it doesn't look good on anybody.
There is no overestimation if they have shown skills that have been implied throughout the manga. Case in point, shunsui fought against the #1 espada w/o even releasing his shikai. While someone like ichigo needed mask and bankai to deal with unreleased ulqui. What does that say to you?
Even against Aizen, shunsui put up a great performance. In the end it was his worry for hitsu that left him open. While other weak indivduals like love and rose took on aizen and got owned like they were childrens
Last edited by Raizen; April 16, 2010 at 10:58 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
no... and yes.
I'll try to deal with each separately...
He was able to match Stark with both unreleased, eventually killed Stark with his Shikai's ability.
Besides that, he's displayed two abilities:
-Melding with shadow
Both abilities suit him perfectly, especially the latter, as he's displayed a combat style that exploits every perceived opening in his enemy's defense. The game ability has its weakness, as Stark revealed when he managed to get in a good hit on Shunsui, but on the flipside, had Shunsui said "black" immediately, Stark would never have had a chance to counter.
Unfortunately, this fight which elevated him to the level that we had expected from him since the Yama fight, was immediately undone by having him be dealt with by Aizen in the brawl with the same ease as Hitsugaya (whom Shunsui admitted was weaker) and a weary, one-armed Soi Fong. I would have preferred to see Shunsui take Aizen on with his bankai, or at least put up more of a fight, but there is only so much a manga can show before grinding to a halt plot-wise.
On the whole though, I think Shunsui is still a high tier captain, but the Aizen fight reduced my perception of his strength.
Ergh. The only captain to show less of their power is Unohana. Not a lot to say about him, but he is held in high regard by Yama, who places him at Shunsui's level. Sure, his disease will incapacitate him at the most inopportune of moments (see Kaien's death for example), but from what we've seen of his shikai, he has at least one powerful ability:
-channeling an enemy's kidou/cero/whatevabeam attack, absorbing it in one sword, distorting it to make it harder to negate, and sending it back.
Of course Stark showed the limit to this ability, and before Ukitake had more chance to show off why he's held in such high regard, WW has to show up and ruin everything.
Now Uki's stuck in a black hole of plot (not to be confused with plothole) and he might never get a chance to show off why SS chars considers him to be strong.