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View Poll Results: What tier are Shunsui & Ukitake in?

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99. You may not vote on this poll
  • They're high-tier. Don't mess with them or you'll be sorry.

    86 86.87%
  • They're mid-tier. They're outstanding but so are every other captain.

    13 13.13%
  • They're low-tier. New generation surpasses the old.

    0 0%
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Thread: Shunsui & Ukitake Mega Convo

  1. #151
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Shunsui & Ukitake overrated?

    Saying shunsui chooses the game but not the rules is ridiculous. If I chose to play chess but instead the game is played like checkers, I am not playing chess no matter how I twist it. I would be playing checkers. If I chose checkers but suddenly I can't crown my pieces then I am also not playing checker, just a weird variation of it. If that no less than absurd interpretation is indeed acurate though, I'd love to see shunsui playing tag but it turned out the rules enforced were those of hide and sick and it was his turn to hide lol.

    Worth noting regarding shunsui's zampakuto, it chosing the games does not necessarily make the games random. KK is an individual with her own tastes, biases and whims. Even if she were to pick the games at "random" I doubt they could be considered random in the true sense of the word due to that.

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  3. #152
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    Re: Shunsui & Ukitake overrated?

    When people here talk about Zanpakutos and their owners, they communicate with eachother. Notice, I said OWNERS. Shunsui is the same, Ukitake is the same. They are in charge of their swords. The swords are a reflection of themselves. Shunsui, lazy, relaxed, laid back, easy going, not always into it. His Zanpakuto is the same. He isn't in the mood, neither is his sword. In the beginning of the fight he was fooling around with Stark. Stark didn't want to do any type of serious fighting, neither did Shunsui. But he had to. He explained after the battle to Love and Rose that when you are in a battle you're in the wrong already. It doesn't matter who starts it.

    I don't see what is so difficult to understand about Shunsui and his swords. Katen Kyokotsu doesn't say when she wants to play. Shunsui and his swords are one. If he isn't in the mood, his swords aren't in the mood. He didn't want to fight, but HAD to fight. When he realized it was time to fight or else two of his former colleagues would die, he killed Stark no problem. That's not overrated. That's underrated, to take down the strongest Espada in just his Shikai. If everyone else had two or more people against one opponent or a bankai or a super hollow, and they BARELY won, why are we saying Shunsui is overrated? He didn't need those two loser vizards to help him with Stark. They got maybe two hits on Stark and did NO DAMAGE. Stark owned them with his wolves. In comes Shunsui and owns Stark with a Shadow strike and a hit from the color game. Two-hit KO.

    Remember Stark's words? Why do I have to fight someone so strong? I was envious of the weak ones. Shunsui is no pushover. Ukitake isn't either. He stopped Byakuya from killing Hinatoro with Rukia back in SS. Plus sent Starks ceros back faster and stronger than they previously were. I cant wait to see more from these two.

  4. #153
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    Re: Shunsui & Ukitake overrated?

    Quote Originally Posted by freshseth83 View Post
    When people here talk about Zanpakutos and their owners, they communicate with eachother. Notice, I said OWNERS. Shunsui is the same, Ukitake is the same. They are in charge of their swords. The swords are a reflection of themselves. Shunsui, lazy, relaxed, laid back, easy going, not always into it. His Zanpakuto is the same. He isn't in the mood, neither is his sword. In the beginning of the fight he was fooling around with Stark. Stark didn't want to do any type of serious fighting, neither did Shunsui. But he had to. He explained after the battle to Love and Rose that when you are in a battle you're in the wrong already. It doesn't matter who starts it.

    I don't see what is so difficult to understand about Shunsui and his swords. Katen Kyokotsu doesn't say when she wants to play. Shunsui and his swords are one. If he isn't in the mood, his swords aren't in the mood. He didn't want to fight, but HAD to fight. When he realized it was time to fight or else two of his former colleagues would die, he killed Stark no problem. That's not overrated. That's underrated, to take down the strongest Espada in just his Shikai. If everyone else had two or more people against one opponent or a bankai or a super hollow, and they BARELY won, why are we saying Shunsui is overrated? He didn't need those two loser vizards to help him with Stark. They got maybe two hits on Stark and did NO DAMAGE. Stark owned them with his wolves. In comes Shunsui and owns Stark with a Shadow strike and a hit from the color game. Two-hit KO.

    Remember Stark's words? Why do I have to fight someone so strong? I was envious of the weak ones. Shunsui is no pushover. Ukitake isn't either. He stopped Byakuya from killing Hinatoro with Rukia back in SS. Plus sent Starks ceros back faster and stronger than they previously were. I cant wait to see more from these two.
    Except Shinigami can't always control the mood of their swords. Ikkaku's Bankai always has to be forcibly warmed up, remember?

  5. #154
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Shunsui & Ukitake overrated?

    I guess I did make my post a tad vague but I stand by what I say.

    Now, what you and a few others say is that shunsui choses the games but KK chooses the rules. I was first and foremost attacking the notion that shunsui could choose to play a game while KK arbitrarily decides when to enforce the rules and given the whole "KK decides the rules" what rules it enforces. The whole idea of shunsui choosing the game would be incompatible with KK choosing the rules given that if shunsui choose the game KK would have no say in what rules are in effect. It'd necessarily have to stick to a set of specific rules for specific games otherwise shunsui choosing a game has not plausible value. I don't expect KK to change the rules mid game but it if is indeed she chooses the rules she could as well do it on a whim. Not that I think shunsui chooses the games.

    As for the difference between KK being in the mood and not being in it, I would expect it to be the same difference btween any other person being and not being in the mood for something. Someday someone might be in the mood for ice cream and someday that person might not want to hear a word about it. When starrk asked shunsui if he hid KO until shunsui sneaked on him, shunsui said he didn't and his sword simply was not in the mood for it. Logically, that means that if KK had been in the mood before he'd not have waited so long to use it. Now, whether the game can or cannot be played under certain conditions is irrelevant to KK's mood even if she is enough of a bitch to choose it. If a game does not work under certain conditions, all shunsui has to do is work it and take advantage of the element of surprise as he did many times against starrk. Even if KO would not normally work in the air, how hard would it be for shunsui to get closer to the ground? It would not be hard at all, there are plenty of ways for him to get the enemy closer to the ground. Luring or forcing the enemy to the ground is something pretty easy IMHO.
    Last edited by Kaiten; May 09, 2010 at 09:29 PM.

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  7. #155
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    Re: Shunsui & Ukitake overrated?

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Now, what you and a few others say is that shunsui choses the games but KK chooses the rules. I was first and foremost attacking the notion that shunsui could choose to play a game while KK arbitrarily decides when to enforce the rules and given the whole "KK decides the rules" what rules it enforces. The whole idea of shunsui choosing the game would be incompatible with KK choosing the rules given that if shunsui choose the game KK would have no say in what rules are in effect. It'd necessarily have to stick to a set of specific rules for specific games otherwise shunsui choosing a game has not plausible value. I don't expect KK to change the rules mid game but it if is indeed she chooses the rules she could as well do it on a whim. Not that I think shunsui chooses the games.
    If Shunsui chooses a game, why won't KK have no say in what rules are in effect? If I create a game, whenever somebody chooses to play this game, my rules will be in effect. My game, my rules.

    Theoretically KK can make arbitrary changes in the rules of a game and for example, change the rules of Takaoni to Irooni's, overruling Shunsui's decision and making it essentially an Irooni game instead of Takaoni but this is like expecting FIDE to change the rules of chess to checkers for fun. Such a thing doesn't happen (expecting it is unreasonable) and therefore we can safely assume that we won't play checkers if we choose to play chess.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    As for the difference between KK being in the mood and not being in it, I would expect it to be the same difference btween any other person being and not being in the mood for something. Someday someone might be in the mood for ice cream and someday that person might not want to hear a word about it. When starrk asked shunsui if he hid KO until shunsui sneaked on him, shunsui said he didn't and his sword simply was not in the mood for it. Logically, that means that if KK had been in the mood before he'd not have waited so long to use it. Now, whether the game can or cannot be played under certain conditions is irrelevant to KK's mood even if she is enough of a bitch to choose it. If a game does not work under certain conditions, all shunsui has to do is work it and take advantage of the element of surprise as he did many times against starrk. Even if KO would not normally work in the air, how hard would it be for shunsui to get closer to the ground? It would not be hard at all, there are plenty of ways for him to get the enemy closer to the ground. Luring or forcing the enemy to the ground is something pretty easy IMHO.
    So you say that KK plays Takaoni or Bushogoma when she is not in the mood and plays Kageoni (and possibly Irooni) when she is in the mood. Because otherwise sword's mood would be irrelevant.

    And you also say Shunsui could lure Stark to the ground, hide in the shadows and stab him freely even if Stark wasn't distracted. Am I right? Because if Shunsui can't do that, what good is Kageoni, what difference would it make compared to Takaoni or Bushogoma?

    If KK is in the mood, it should be advantageous to Shunsui, right? How exactly is it advantageous?

    [Edit] Or do you say "KK was in the mood to play Bushogoma, later it was in the mood to play Takaoni and later Kageoni. The sword is always in the mood for one game and not in the mood for others at any point in time." Is it what you understand from the "mood"?
    Last edited by Gran Maestro; May 09, 2010 at 05:02 AM.

  8. #156
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Shunsui & Ukitake overrated?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gran Maestro View Post
    If Shunsui chooses a game, why won't KK have no say in what rules are in effect? If I create a game, whenever somebody chooses to play this game, my rules will be in effect. My game, my rules.

    Theoretically KK can make arbitrary changes in the rules of a game and for example, change the rules of Takaoni to Irooni's, overruling Shunsui's decision and making it essentially an Irooni game instead of Takaoni but this is like expecting FIDE to change the rules of chess to checkers for fun. Such a thing doesn't happen (expecting it is unreasonable) and therefore we can safely assume that we won't play checkers if we choose to play chess.
    If shunsui is the one that chooses the games, then KK have no say in the rules because she MUST stick to the rules that are associated with a game. If KK chooses the rules, the shunsui choosing the games has no value because regardless of what he wants KK will do as she pleases. In other words, with the interpretation you are giving to this explanations there is a more than severe contradiction. The whole thing about being "reasonable" is irrelevant to this. There is no middle ground between shunsui choosing the games and KK choosing the rules, only one of them can be true.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gran Maestro View Post
    So you say that KK plays Takaoni or Bushogoma when she is not in the mood and plays Kageoni (and possibly Irooni) when she is in the mood. Because otherwise sword's mood would be irrelevant.

    And you also say Shunsui could lure Stark to the ground, hide in the shadows and stab him freely even if Stark wasn't distracted. Am I right? Because if Shunsui can't do that, what good is Kageoni, what difference would it make compared to Takaoni or Bushogoma?

    If KK is in the mood, it should be advantageous to Shunsui, right? How exactly is it advantageous?

    [Edit] Or do you say "KK was in the mood to play Bushogoma, later it was in the mood to play Takaoni and later Kageoni. The sword is always in the mood for one game and not in the mood for others at any point in time." Is it what you understand from the "mood"?
    Why do you make everything so complicated? The sword plays whatever game she wants. It's not like it has a set of games it plays when it is in the mood and a set of games she plays when she isn't. KK plays whatever game she wants. In that sense, she played busho goma when she was in the mood for it, she played taka oni when she was in the mood for it, she played kage oni when she was in the mood for it and ultimately played the color game when she was in the mood for it. KK being in the mood is not necessarily advantageous or disadvantageous for shunsui. KK will choose a game and said game can kill shunsui as much as it can kill the enemy.

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  10. #157
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    Re: Shunsui & Ukitake overrated?

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    If shunsui is the one that chooses the games, then KK have no say in the rules because she MUST stick to the rules that are associated with a game. If KK chooses the rules, the shunsui choosing the games has no value because regardless of what he wants KK will do as she pleases. In other words, with the interpretation you are giving to this explanations there is a more than severe contradiction. The whole thing about being "reasonable" is irrelevant to this. There is no middle ground between shunsui choosing the games and KK choosing the rules, only one of them can be true.
    So you think that if I suggest you to play chess, we will be playing by my rules even though these rules did exist long before I was born. There is no contradiction whatsoever, there is only your interesting concept that KK has no say in the rules even though she created those very rules.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    KK plays whatever game she wants. In that sense, she played busho goma when she was in the mood for it, she played taka oni when she was in the mood for it, she played kage oni when she was in the mood for it and ultimately played the color game when she was in the mood for it. KK being in the mood is not necessarily advantageous or disadvantageous for shunsui.
    LOL you did a bad job of expressing your opinion (or I didn't understand it) because I had no idea this was what you meant.

    If your interpretation is correct (perhaps it is correct, the translations are obscure), I must say it creates some problems:

    1) It doesn't explain the incredible coincidence of two Kageoni games at the only two occasions that it would work.

    2) It doesn't explain why KK chose to play Irooni when Shunsui was ready and determined to take on Stark with his shikai. If KK did play Bushogoma or Takaoni, perhaps Shunsui would be forced to go bankai because they didn't do much good before.

    3) It doesn't explain why Shunsui complained about his sword's mood, what was the reason of the complaint?

    4) It doesn't explain why Shunsui doesn't have any control on his techniques unlike every other shinigami.

    I know your opinion about these issues, I just say that if you're right, the way Kubo portrayed KK doesn't make much sense to me. I'll wait for Shunsui's next fight to have a better idea.

  11. #158
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    Re: Shunsui & Ukitake overrated?

    ^^KK does have a say in the rules, she chooses the games

    I don't think there is such an incredible coincidence. KK is indeed a weapon and also has her own personality, biases and preferences. She also happens to be present at the battle. The games aren't really random if there is an inteligent force controlling which one pops up -in this case KK-.

    Busho goma did not seem like a move made to kill, rather simply to distract. Taka oni did not work because starrk shot shunsui. This shows the rules of the games are not THAT absolute while they do apply to some extent. That also makes sense considering that KK's reiatsu would have to be enough to utterly negate everything an enemy could plausibly try in order for the rules to be absolute to the extreme and that is kind of a strength between 3 people of the captain level.

    Shunsui did not complain about his swords mood. All that shunsui said about the mood is that he did not use KO before because KK was not in the mood. He complained about being jerked/pushed around by it and it being spoiled and doing what she wants -which only makes sense if KK chooses the games-.

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  13. #159
    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity hakuthehedgehog's Avatar
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    Re: Shunsui & Ukitake overrated?

    If you are saying that KK is intelligent and chooses the game that is best for Shunsui, then it is the same as saying that Shunsui controls it, since KK would always choose the best game for a given situation.

    I think Shunsui would also complain about the swords mood if:

    1. When KK is in the mood, Shunsui can choose every game she has to offer, otherwise he can't use it at all.

    2. KK is in the mood for some games, and Shunsui can choose some of them, or then use none at all.

    If KK chose the games randomly, then every time Shunsui fought, it would be a fest of random games.
    Last edited by hakuthehedgehog; May 09, 2010 at 01:56 PM.
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    On that topic, anyone else think Naruto's the type of guy who would cry after sex?
    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    I fount it interesting that had Kushina not gotten knocked up, None of them would be in the current situation. She's more responsible for the Uchiha massacre then Danzo and co. Crap, Now Sasuke has a valid reason to use his hatred against Naruto.
    LMFAO

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    Re: Shunsui & Ukitake overrated?

    I didn't say KK chooses the best game for a given situation. For all we know, she might actually disagree with shunsui regarding which game is best -they do have their own personalities and individuality-. We don't have enough evidence to argue exactly what parameters KK uses to decide which game she uses so I don't think we should get into that. I for one will stick strictly to "KK chooses the game at any given point".

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    Harasho 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Kaiten's Avatar
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    Re: Shunsui & Ukitake overrated?

    Can't really say I'm much of Shunsui fan. Compared to some of the other captains he always seemed a little bland and uninteresting. His scenes with Chad in SS were pretty cool but when the arc ended he was not the captain I wanted to see more of. Didn't really care for his shikai either, seemed like Kubo was trying to hard when he thought of it, as though he were trying to make the ultimate epic shikai to please all fans. His fight against Starrk was boring in my opinion, like most of the FKT arc there was no plot build up to it, nor any reason for a casual fan to feel emotionally invested. Since he's one of the least popular captains in the fan polls I'm not sure we're going to see much of him again anyway. Ukitake I like more, not sure why. His role in SS was a little more robust, while I'd never describe him as a favorite I look forward to seeing him get a real fight.

    That said I'm not sure where to judge them in terms of strength. They've been shinigami for something like a thousand years, were the first graduates of the academy to become Captain, of the Captains circa TGTP only Unohana and Yama were older, they trained directly under Yama, and were already shinigami when the Gotei 13 was founded. All pretty ridiculous stuff to think about. Experience alone puts them ahead of virtually every character in the series. Judging power levels in Bleach is pretty rough business though. At any given time someone could make some tremendously hyperbolic statement about anyone else, Yuroichi is the "god of shunpo" and Byakuya is the strongest Kuchiki ever for instance. Some characters have been shown using more abilities then others; Shunsui could be the greatest kidou master in the history of Soul Society but has not cast spell one nor has any mention of it been made outside of data books. So how do you compare his ability in this area or that better than someone or anothers if that character has done something in the manga that Shunsui has not. He's probably not been underrated as a shinigami or overrated. I have almost no clue what to say about Ukitake since we've seen so little of him in action.

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    Re: Shunsui & Ukitake overrated?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gran Maestro View Post
    And you also say Shunsui could lure Stark to the ground, hide in the shadows and stab him freely even if Stark wasn't distracted. Am I right? Because if Shunsui can't do that, what good is Kageoni, what difference would it make compared to Takaoni or Bushogoma?
    he doesnt need to hide in the shadow he could just stab it. i dont think he fully explained the rules for kageoni.http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/374/06/ says here he just has to step on his shadow to win. i dont see why he coulnt just jump into starrks shadow then when starrk lands to investigate, stab him then.

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    Re: Shunsui & Ukitake overrated?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaiten.Sama View Post
    Can't really say I'm much of Shunsui fan. Compared to some of the other captains he always seemed a little bland and uninteresting. His scenes with Chad in SS were pretty cool but when the arc ended he was not the captain I wanted to see more of. Didn't really care for his shikai either, seemed like Kubo was trying to hard when he thought of it, as though he were trying to make the ultimate epic shikai to please all fans. His fight against Starrk was boring in my opinion, like most of the FKT arc there was no plot build up to it, nor any reason for a casual fan to feel emotionally invested. Since he's one of the least popular captains in the fan polls I'm not sure we're going to see much of him again anyway. Ukitake I like more, not sure why. His role in SS was a little more robust, while I'd never describe him as a favorite I look forward to seeing him get a real fight.

    That said I'm not sure where to judge them in terms of strength. They've been shinigami for something like a thousand years, were the first graduates of the academy to become Captain, of the Captains circa TGTP only Unohana and Yama were older, they trained directly under Yama, and were already shinigami when the Gotei 13 was founded. All pretty ridiculous stuff to think about. Experience alone puts them ahead of virtually every character in the series. Judging power levels in Bleach is pretty rough business though. At any given time someone could make some tremendously hyperbolic statement about anyone else, Yuroichi is the "god of shunpo" and Byakuya is the strongest Kuchiki ever for instance. Some characters have been shown using more abilities then others; Shunsui could be the greatest kidou master in the history of Soul Society but has not cast spell one nor has any mention of it been made outside of data books. So how do you compare his ability in this area or that better than someone or anothers if that character has done something in the manga that Shunsui has not. He's probably not been underrated as a shinigami or overrated. I have almost no clue what to say about Ukitake since we've seen so little of him in action.
    you're funny... he's more popular than most of the captains. more popular than komamura, more popular than mayuri, more popular yoruichi, and just as popular as ukitake. there was no hype surrounding these characters, just words from Yama who said their skills were unequaled. Weve seen one fight from Shunsui and you say he's boring? What about him is boring? that he doesn't have weak dialougue or funny moments where he's getting kicked in the face? You know it's funny to hear people say things they have no clue about, especially when a recent poularity poll put Shunsui at 17th out of the top 50. He's not as popular as Ichigo, or Rukia, or Orihime, or even Hitsuflamer, but he's more popular than every other captain besides Hitsugaya Byakuya and Kenpachi. Link here- http://chioky.deviantart.com/journal/21874802/

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    Re: Shunsui & Ukitake overrated?

    Quote Originally Posted by freshseth83 View Post
    you're funny... he's more popular than most of the captains. more popular than komamura, more popular than mayuri, more popular yoruichi, and just as popular as ukitake. there was no hype surrounding these characters, just words from Yama who said their skills were unequaled. Weve seen one fight from Shunsui and you say he's boring? What about him is boring? that he doesn't have weak dialougue or funny moments where he's getting kicked in the face? You know it's funny to hear people say things they have no clue about, especially when a recent poularity poll put Shunsui at 17th out of the top 50. He's not as popular as Ichigo, or Rukia, or Orihime, or even Hitsuflamer, but he's more popular than every other captain besides Hitsugaya Byakuya and Kenpachi. Link here- http://chioky.deviantart.com/journal/21874802/
    lol you just told a mod he has no clue about his own opinion. nice.....

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    Re: Shunsui & Ukitake overrated?

    His opinion is fine, but to say he's unpopular is misguided. Being the 17th most popular character out of 50 characters is pretty popular to me. Especially considering that this poll was taken in 2008. Out of date you might say but not much has changed since then. He has received one fight, he beat Stark, that's it. Being 17th before he even had a real fight makes me believe he'll just improve his stock.

    On top of that, Bleach wikia polls show that Shunsui is the highest rated captain in popularity. This might be mostly american readers but it's a lot of readers with over 5300 votes. Shunsui taking 1287 votes, or over 23% which put him first in terms of captains. http://bleach.wikia.com/wiki/Bleach_Wiki:Poll_Results
    Last edited by freshseth83; May 10, 2010 at 04:27 AM.

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